How to Box with Wing Chun

[KPM]

Hey Guys! This is my first attempt at a youtube video.I’ve been thinking about his a lot lately and working on it, so I decided to commit it to video.Here is my first installment on the issue of making Wing Chun more “boxing-like.”I talk about the power-line, coupling the elbow and the hip, generating power with a “drop step”, and the differences between modern boxing and a “Wing Chun Boxing."

I think we are seeing a natural evolution of Wing Chun in modern times. If you browse through youtube you will find any number of vids showing people trying to spar with their Wing Chun skills. A lot of them don't look that great. I think this is because Wing Chun was not designed to be a "sparring" method. Or people will look like they are doing what is essentially modern boxing while using some Pak Sau's and Bong Sau's. I think that if you are going to combine Wing Chun with boxing, or use boxing as an inspiration to "expand" upon your Wing Chun, the "old school" boxing is a much better fit than "modern" boxing. The old school boxing had a structure and footwork that was already very similar to Wing Chun. But I don't see what I am doing as a combination of the two, but rather as an "inspired by" way of doing Wing Chun.

http://youtu.be/o4oyVEtljj4

Here is my second installment on “How to Box with Wing Chun.” This one deals with footwork.It really isn’t much different than standard Wing Chun footwork, just a little more “open.”

http://youtu.be/AjDYx4OEa9s

 

[Argus]

Good stuff.

There's a lot of insight to be gleamed from old bareknuckle boxing, and I'd recommend anyone to read manuals of the time.

I feel that the most important aspect of applying Wing Chun, though, is not in technique, but in principle; loi lau, hoi sung - lat sau jik chung. With an emphasis on "lat sau jik chung" - always follow in, fill and chase the center.

As such, the only problem I had with the video was when you demonstrated reacting to a round punch with a biu-sau, but did not cover the center at the same time with a punch in the other hand. That's not just missing a free punch, but also leaving the line open for his rear hand.

I think the best way to think about intercepting an opponent's technique is to focus on hitting first, and covering with the other hand second. To use a fencing reference and paraphrase Lichtenauer: keep your point on line and threaten the opponent at every opportunity; he who displaces only will just put himself in greater danger. Focus on attacking with a better line, that both covers you, and threatens him, and let the other hand assist naturally. Otherwise, you're just following the opponent, chasing hands, and waiting to be set up. But chase center, and follow after, and you'll have better control over the fight and catch your opponent on feints. At least, in theory.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the difference between the boxing and TCMA such as the WC system is:

1. In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
2. In TCMA (such as WC), a punch is more than just a punch. You should never pull your punch back empty hand.

The 2nd method is more advance and useful than the 1st method. We should expand that concept "a punch is more than just a punch" in more deeper level.

 

[Marnetmar]

This is almost identical to how I train my Wing Chun, I must not be as much of a traditionalist as I think I am! Excellent stuff!

 

[Eric_H]

Hey Guys! This is my first attempt at a youtube video.I’ve been thinking about his a lot lately and working on it, so I decided to commit it to video.Here is my first installment on the issue of making Wing Chun more “boxing-like.”I talk about the power-line, coupling the elbow and the hip, generating power with a “drop step”, and the differences between modern boxing and a “Wing Chun Boxing."

I think we are seeing a natural evolution of Wing Chun in modern times. If you browse through youtube you will find any number of vids showing people trying to spar with their Wing Chun skills. A lot of them don't look that great. I think this is because Wing Chun was not designed to be a "sparring" method. Or people will look like they are doing what is essentially modern boxing while using some Pak Sau's and Bong Sau's. I think that if you are going to combine Wing Chun with boxing, or use boxing as an inspiration to "expand" upon your Wing Chun, the "old school" boxing is a much better fit than "modern" boxing. The old school boxing had a structure and footwork that was already very similar to Wing Chun. But I don't see what I am doing as a combination of the two, but rather as an "inspired by" way of doing Wing Chun.

http://youtu.be/o4oyVEtljj4

Here is my second installment on “How to Box with Wing Chun.” This one deals with footwork.It really isn’t much different than standard Wing Chun footwork, just a little more “open.”

http://youtu.be/AjDYx4OEa9s

Watched a bit of the first video with the sound off and got pretty confused with your WC punch - why in the heck are you throwing that punch without any knee function? You're leaving 1/2 your leg out of the game man! You could easily make your punches probably twice as powerful.

 

[Mephisto]

As an outsider the problem I see with wc is that there seems to be a lot of guys talking and theorizing about "concepts" and "scientific" approach but we see very little demonstration of technique against a resisting partner of comparable skill. You see wc guys making videos about how to beat style x,y,z but you don't see the other styles making videos about how to beat wc. We may be seeing a slow change in the wc community but wc guys will have to prove that all their theory and concepts work. Of course you have the standard, "wc is not a sport" tired argument and it will never change anyone's opinion.

 

[Argus]

As an outsider the problem I see with wc is that there seems to be a lot of guys talking and theorizing about "concepts" and "scientific" approach but we see very little demonstration of technique against a resisting partner of comparable skill. You see wc guys making videos about how to beat style x,y,z but you don't see the other styles making videos about how to beat wc. We may be seeing a slow change in the wc community but wc guys will have to prove that all their theory and concepts work. Of course you have the standard, "wc is not a sport" tired argument and it will never change anyone's opinion.

In my experience, very few practitioners actually stick to the principles and concepts of the system under pressure, and that's why they don't meet with success. But there are the minority who learn to apply those principles under pressure, and they're the ones who do succeed.

On one hand, most people never even test their stuff. On the other hand, the problem is further compounded by those who devalue theory and principle, and proclaim that it's "impractical" when they never understood or learned to apply it in the first place. Without its principles, Wing Chun is nothing more than a collection of useless techniques, and getting in the ring with that mentality amounts to little more than a poorly trained boxer.

Wing Chun is proven in concept and principle. If you're humble, and would like me to point you to a few good examples, I'll gladly oblige. But if you're just looking to discount and discredit things you don't understand, I won't waste my time, and you can go on believing whatever you want.

 

[KPM]

As such, the only problem I had with the video was when you demonstrated reacting to a round punch with a biu-sau, but did not cover the center at the same time with a punch in the other hand. That's not just missing a free punch, but also leaving the line open for his rear hand.

---Good point! But that's primarily a function of demo'ing on BOB, rather than a real opponent, with actual arms. ;-)

I think the best way to think about intercepting an opponent's technique is to focus on hitting first, and covering with the other hand second.

---Exactly! And that's very much a "boxing" approach. Hit the opponent and defend only if you really have to.

 

[KPM]

Watched a bit of the first video with the sound off and got pretty confused with your WC punch - why in the heck are you throwing that punch without any knee function? You're leaving 1/2 your leg out of the game man! You could easily make your punches probably twice as powerful.

Not sure what you mean Eric. Can you elaborate?

 

[Mephisto]

In my experience, very few practitioners actually stick to the principles and concepts of the system under pressure, and that's why they don't meet with success. But there are the minority who learn to apply those principles under pressure, and they're the ones who do succeed.

Wing Chun is proven in concept and principle. If you're humble, and would like me to point you to a few good examples, I'll gladly oblige. But if you're just looking to discount and discredit things you don't understand, I won't waste my time, and you can go on believing whatever you want.

I'm not staunch WC hater, i'm always open to evidence that will change my opinion. I will seriously consider anything you bring to light. At this point though I think what i'd find most convincing is video of a WC guy applying his technique against a resisting opponent of comparable size and skill. There are big athletic guys that do WC that could hand me my lunch but i'm not convinced that an equally sized opponent would have such success. There are a lot of videos of guys explaining and demonstrating on bags and compliant partners. Some videos even have the guys put on gear and an attacker will lunge in with one punch only to become docile and compliant for the defender to unleash a flurry of strikes. Here's one of the better videos i've run across, there's a lot of dancing but the WC guy seems to use his technique effectively of the other guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In

- boxing, a jab will be followed by a cross. hook, or uppercut.
- WC, a jab will be followed by another jab because the special WC stance.

When we compare WC and boxing, should we talk more about WC "knock down power"?

 

[KPM]

In

- boxing, a jab will be followed by a cross. hook, or uppercut.
- WC, a jab will be followed by another jab because the special WC stance.

When we compare WC and boxing, should we talk more about WC "knock down power"?

John, did you actually watch my first clip? I addressed both of those points already.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I thought the videos, especially footwork, were reminiscent of JKD. Some might see that as a good thing and some as a bad thing.
I would imagine we all realize that theory and concepts learned sometimes go out the window under pressure. Thats seems like all the more reason to drill and pressure test them though, not modify them. We are what we train right?

 

[Eric_H]

Not sure what you mean Eric. Can you elaborate?

I'll try, but this is probably going to be one of those "talk about it forever and not really communicate what i could show you in 10 seconds" so, bear with me

When lunging into the opponent's space, WC uses the knee hip and elbow together with forward footwork to generate power.

Here when i see you slide into the opponent's space it seems you're trying to maintain relatively flat-facing which works great for when the bridge is built, but not as much when entering the opponent's space. I can't exactly tell but it also looks like you're somewhat back weighted using a slide step more akin to how xingyi does it. Could be wrong, but that's what i see.

Try instead picking up the front foot a bit higher and then as it lands use the adducting learned in YGKYM (In Hung Fa Yi we call that inward force Lok Ma) to create a slight turn in with knee and hip to drive the elbow. YMMV but what I got that to start connecting, my punches got *a lot* more knock down power.

 

[Marnetmar]

I'm not staunch WC hater, i'm always open to evidence that will change my opinion. I will seriously consider anything you bring to light. At this point though I think what i'd find most convincing is video of a WC guy applying his technique against a resisting opponent of comparable size and skill. There are big athletic guys that do WC that could hand me my lunch but i'm not convinced that an equally sized opponent would have such success. There are a lot of videos of guys explaining and demonstrating on bags and compliant partners. Some videos even have the guys put on gear and an attacker will lunge in with one punch only to become docile and compliant for the defender to unleash a flurry of strikes. Here's one of the better videos i've run across, there's a lot of dancing but the WC guy seems to use his technique effectively of the other guy.

Eh, I don't really like that one. I think this is a better example of WC working under pressure:

Wing chun kung fu Vs Kick Boxing - YouTube

 

[Mephisto]

Eh, I don't really like that one. I think this is a better example of WC working under pressure:

Wing chun kung fu Vs Kick Boxing - YouTube

the practitioners in this video don't really seem to be of comparable skill. Not really sure about the wc guy but the kb-er looks very shy and doesn't seem to be able to throw a proper kick. Of course a lot of wc haters would say this about any video where a wc guys seems to get the upper hand, but in this case the kb guy really looks like he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

John, did you actually watch my first clip? I addressed both of those points already.

I did watch every single second of your 1st clip and I agree with what you have said there. I think it will be nice to add a "100% final committed punch" to demonstrate your "knock down power". That extra 1 second addition will make your clip "perfect" with a nice ending.

I always like to see clips that TCMA guys can punch harder than boxer does. To apply WC principles is important. To apply WC "finish power" is also important.

 

[Marnetmar]

the practitioners in this video don't really seem to be of comparable skill. Not really sure about the wc guy but the kb-er looks very shy and doesn't seem to be able to throw a proper kick. Of course a lot of wc haters would say this about any video where a wc guys seems to get the upper hand, but in this case the kb guy really looks like he doesn't know what he's doing.

Fair point. You could also argue that the WC guy has a size advantage on the KB-er.

 

[geezer]

I did watch every single second of your 1st clip and I agree with what you have said there. I think it will be nice to add a "100% final committed punch" to demonstrate your "knock down power". That extra 1 second addition will make your clip "perfect" with a nice ending.

I always like to see clips that TCMA guys can punch harder than boxer does. To apply WC principles is important. To apply WC "finish power" is also important.

Such a 100% committed finish seems more characteristic of a very external system like Hung ga or Shotokan Karate, and honestly isn't very representative of WC. One of the WC principles (at least of my lineage) is Mo kuen yat fat or no one-punch technique. We refrain from over committing, even as a "finish". It does make for a nice demo though.



Also, do you really think that TCMA, as a rule, hit's harder than a western boxer? I mean, while I am committed to WC and respect the surprising short power it can help us develop, I really don't think you should undervalue the punching power of a good boxer!

 

[Marnetmar]

I don't think that's the point John's trying to make.