The Three Components of Wing Chun

KPM

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I like to look at it his way....Wing Chun has three aspects or components: the guiding principles and concepts, body structure and mechanics, and the actual techniques. While each aspect is important, to me the body structure and mechanics is what makes Wing Chun....Wing Chun! You can apply Wing Chun concepts to boxing, but that doesn't automatically make it Wing Chun! And you can add Wing Chun hand techniques to a boxing structure, but that doesn't automatically make it Wing Chun either! What sets Wing Chun and boxing apart is the body structure and the biomechanics used in generating power. If you change that, then its no longer Wing Chun in my opinion. The "engine" drives the car. The paint, tires, and seat covers are important, but not as important as the engine. You can have two cars with the same paint, tires, and seat covers...but one may have a Ferrari engine and the other a Fiat engine! If you are trying to do Wing Chun, but have resorted to using a boxing structure because that's what comes out in your sparring sessions, then to me you are no longer doing Wing Chun. Call it "Wing Chun boxing" or maybe "boxing with Wing Chun" or something like that. But it ain't Wing Chun Kuen!

That's why I have to speak up when I see a video of someone bouncing around on the balls of their feet, bobbing their head around, bending over at the waist, and swinging the shoulders when they punch....but then calling it Wing Chun because they are using Wing Chun "concepts" and throw in some PaK Sau's and Bong Sau's! Because to me, if you aren't using a Wing Chun structure and dynamics to send and receive force...then it ain't Wing Chun!

Lately I've even seen people saying in another forum that Wing Chun doesn't necessarily have to look like Wing Chun when used because Wing Chun is "conceptual based." My response was that if the ***** hits the fan in a real situation and the way you respond doesn't look anything like the Wing Chun you've been training, then you need to take a hard look at your training! You've probably been wasting your time! :-0

If under pressure you resort to some kind of sloppy back alley boxing, then something is wrong! If you are exchanging freely in a sparring situation and an informed observer doesn't realize you train Wing Chun, then something is wrong!

Now granted, a real encounter is a messy chaotic affair and isn't going to go off like it does in the gym or kwoon. But if your Wing Chun goes out the window, then you have to question what you have been training.

I know some people will be asking..."who are you to say what Wing Chun should or should not look like!!???" I'm not trying to tell anyone what their Wing Chun should look like or that their Wing Chun looks wrong! I'm just saying it should look like SOME kind of Wing Chun! Wing Chun has a wide latitude for personal expression. Two students can study with the same teacher and still have very different Wing Chun. But Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun. It doesn't look like boxing. Now I am speaking of Wing Chun in a general sense. Your Wing Chun, my Wing Chun, Geezer's Wing Chun, Alan Orr's Wing Chun, Joy's Wing Chun, etc. Man....I even had someone question me on what I meant by "general Wing Chun"!

I'm just saying it kind of irritates me when someone does some kind of Wing Chun/Boxing hybrid and then calls it Wing Chun without qualification. At least be honest and give boxing some credit!

Ok. Rant over. Its been an interesting couple of days on the facebook Wing Chun forum! Thanks for listening. :)
 
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KPM

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Here's an example of what I'm talking about:


If Wing Chun wasn't noted in the tag line, would any of you thought either one of the those fighters was doing Wing Chun?
 
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K-man

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I might be a bit simple but I would suggest that WC, like many other martial arts, was never designed for sport and in most cases not even for fighting highly trained opponents. Almost all MAs that have gone down the sport line have modified the way they fight in the ring. They also have to work out how to combat highly trained opponents from other styles which could be expressed as fighting fire with fire. If you are going to fight in the ring you a going to end up looking like an MMA fighter regardless of your origin. If you want to preserve and develop your art, keep it out of sport. Of course there are those who would say you must test your style for effectiveness and I would agree. I just don't believe the ring is necessarily the best place to test it.
:asian:
 

Kwan Sau

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No stance = no Wing Chun , in my opinion.

Mook, no offense dude but this makes no sense.
To which "stance" are you referring to???????????????????????
Wing Chun has many "stances".
Who are you / we to say which is which under whatever circumstances???????
no disrespectful tone meant, just trying to understand how you/CST Wing chun views the term "stance".
Thx
 

Marnetmar

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Well, for one Kwan I'm pretty sure WC has a stance somewhere in it that looks something like this...

In all seriousness though there really isn't any WC footwork or stances in there. I don't think that's something you can even argue over.

Also, how the hell is that even sparring, even if it's not WC?
 

Kwan Sau

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Marnetmar, I hear what your saying man...but my point is this: yes, that pic you inserted is one of the many stances WC has. Who is to say which of the myriad stances we are to use when the **** hits the fan. More over, when a WC man transitions from one stance to another, is he to look like a robot or street mime!?!?!?
Clearly, amongst some of you here, I have a much 'looser' definition of WC, and that is to be expected because once one learns the 'science' of WC, he/she is free to express the 'art' of WC.
Now, getting back to point of this: WC is not as neat and clean as most think IMO. For example, when is a Tan sao no longer a Tan sao? Or in this case, when is a "stance" no longer a stance? If a WC player begins in a neutral horse, then as attack begins he turns his horse to say a 70/30, but then moves immeditely to a pole type of horse etc etc blah blah... this may not look very "Yip Man Donnie Yen Movie Like" as most would like to dream... but it's all letters of the WC alphabet being used in a dynamic situation.
Thx Gents.
 

Marnetmar

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And you are correct, good W.C is actually very dull. But if you don't know proper structure, you're really not doing yourself much of a favor.
 
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Kwan Sau

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And you are correct, good W.C is actually very dull and isn't meant to look pretty. But if you don't know proper structure, you're really not doing yourself much of a favor.

And I would concur with you my friend....structure (regardless of "stance") is paramount!!! :)
Well said.
 
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KPM

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Mook, no offense dude but this makes no sense.
To which "stance" are you referring to???????????????????????
Wing Chun has many "stances".
Who are you / we to say which is which under whatever circumstances???????
no disrespectful tone meant, just trying to understand how you/CST Wing chun views the term "stance".
Thx

I can't speak for Mook. But I would agree with him but say "stances" and mean it in the sense of moving from Wing Chun stance to stance using Wing Chun structure and mechanics.
 
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KPM

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Marnetmar, I hear what your saying man...but my point is this: yes, that pic you inserted is one of the many stances WC has. Who is to say which of the myriad stances we are to use when the **** hits the fan. More over, when a WC man transitions from one stance to another, is he to look like a robot or street mime!?!?!?
Clearly, amongst some of you here, I have a much 'looser' definition of WC, and that is to be expected because once one learns the 'science' of WC, he/she is free to express the 'art' of WC.
Now, getting back to point of this: WC is not as neat and clean as most think IMO. For example, when is a Tan sao no longer a Tan sao? Or in this case, when is a "stance" no longer a stance? If a WC player begins in a neutral horse, then as attack begins he turns his horse to say a 70/30, but then moves immeditely to a pole type of horse etc etc blah blah... this may not look very "Yip Man Donnie Yen Movie Like" as most would like to dream... but it's all letters of the WC alphabet being used in a dynamic situation.
Thx Gents.

I'd have no problem with that! Because its still all Wing Chun. My complaint is when someone starts bending forward at the waist, bobbing and weaving and swinging from the shoulders and call it using a Wing Chun stance!
 

geezer

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I'd have no problem with that! Because its still all Wing Chun. My complaint is when someone starts bending forward at the waist, bobbing and weaving and swinging from the shoulders and call it using a Wing Chun stance!

I hear ya, KPM, but personally I see things less as being black and white and more as shades of grey ranging from very like my own conception of Wing Chun all the way to being not recognizable as Wing Chun as I know it.

When I watch Alan Orr's clips for example, I can readily see the WC in what he shows. Less so in some of his students. But that's OK with me. They make their stuff work. I leave it at that.
 

Steve

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If under pressure you resort to some kind of sloppy back alley boxing, then something is wrong! If you are exchanging freely in a sparring situation and an informed observer doesn't realize you train Wing Chun, then something is wrong!

Now granted, a real encounter is a messy chaotic affair and isn't going to go off like it does in the gym or kwoon. But if your Wing Chun goes out the window, then you have to question what you have been training.

I know some people will be asking..."who are you to say what Wing Chun should or should not look like!!???" I'm not trying to tell anyone what their Wing Chun should look like or that their Wing Chun looks wrong! I'm just saying it should look like SOME kind of Wing Chun!

This is so true. It seems simple. But there are some here, posting in this very thread, who argued otherwise vigorously very recently in another thread. I don't understand the sudden reversal of position, unless it was more the messenger than the message.


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mook jong man

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Mook, no offense dude but this makes no sense.
To which "stance" are you referring to???????????????????????
Wing Chun has many "stances".
Who are you / we to say which is which under whatever circumstances???????
no disrespectful tone meant, just trying to understand how you/CST Wing chun views the term "stance".
Thx

Stance in our lineage is pretty much an all encompassing term , meaning to have a straight back , to have your weight sunk down.

Whether you are pivoting , or stepping you will still maintain a straight back and still remain sunk down.
In chi sau we might refer to someone not easily moved around , or their ability to absorb or generate force as having a very good stance.

Bouncing around and moving your spine all over the place upsetting your equilibrium would not be acceptable in our lineage as a Wing Chun stance , irrespective of the arm techniques looking correct or not.
In our eyes it would just not be considered to be Wing Chun.
 

Argus

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In my head!
My response was that if the ***** hits the fan in a real situation and the way you respond doesn't look anything like the Wing Chun you've been training, then you need to take a hard look at your training! You've probably been wasting your time! :-0

Exactly. What is the saying? "We sink to the level of our training."

If you believe that, it kind of puts your training into perspective. If we aren't cultivating habits that come out under stress, what are we doing?
 

Kwan Sau

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My complaint is when someone starts bending forward at the waist, bobbing and weaving and swinging from the shoulders and call it using a Wing Chun stance!

Good morning Gents.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Keith says "bending forward at the waist" as if its not WC. It may not be, if Keith's version of WC (Pin sun I think(?)) doesn't contain that bend. But most 3rd forms of Yip Man WC contain a bend forward motion towards the end of the form. My view is that WC motions (stances, hands, legs etc) are all "verbs" and as such not so neatly packaged when they are being used to save ones ****.
Now, I know what some of you may be thinking..."wait, but the 3rd form is only for emergencies".... If that is how you view it then fine...but some view it as just more tools for the tactical toolbox...ready to be pulled out and used when needed....same for all six forms.
If I happen to need to bend at the waist, I do so. If a waist bend isn't contained in Pin Sun, then I can see how KPM arrived at his conclusion.
 

Steve

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Exactly. What is the saying? "We sink to the level of our training."

If you believe that, it kind of puts your training into perspective. If we aren't cultivating habits that come out under stress, what are we doing?
This is true regardless of style. Can anyone share some examples of what you would consider good technique under stress?
 

K-man

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This is so true. It seems simple. But there are some here, posting in this very thread, who argued otherwise vigorously very recently in another thread. I don't understand the sudden reversal of position, unless it was more the messenger than the message.
Seeing that it's obviously me that you are referring to perhaps you could show me how my position is reversed. In the other thread I was saying that you won't see many of the characteristics of a particular style, such as stance, in an MMA competition because to compete in that competition by very definition you train multiple styles and take elements from each. That is exactly the situation being addressed here. Please let's not go 30 pages down that rabbit hole.
This is true regardless of style. Can anyone share some examples of what you would consider good technique under stress?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evhsnnBkzR4
 

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