The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

geezer

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In general, IMO western boxing is the pinnacle of development in striking arts. So you learn to play their game if you want to be successful striking with them, or you don't play their game at all....as John notes. Put a good Boxer against a good Wing Chun guy (or any TCMA) and they both have the same amount of training, and I'll put my money on the Boxer every time.

Does that mean you have abandoned your work developing a "Wing Chun Boxing" or are still working on a fusion of Western Boxing and TCMA using some WC concepts?

One traditional WC concept I've found useful that really works well from a WC back-weighted stance is using the front leg as a straight-on leg check or stop-kick to your opponent's front leg. Sort of a leg-jab to the shin or knee striking with the bottom of the foot. From a WC perspective it copes with the boxer's longer reach and makes it harder for a boxer to punch with their weight going forward onto the lead leg. It's also a way to distract a boxer and make an opening for moving in close.

WC used this way is much like Jon Jones' "Oblique Kick" in MMA. The WC stance helps keep the body back out of the way.

youtube john jones stop kick - Bing video
 
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KPM

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Does that mean you have abandoned your work developing a "Wing Chun Boxing" or are still working on a fusion of Western Boxing and TCMA using some WC concepts?

One traditional WC concept I've found useful that really works well from a WC back-weighted stance is using the front leg as a straight-on leg check or stop-kick to your opponent's front leg. Sort of a leg-jab to the shin or knee striking with the bottom of the foot. From a WC perspective it copes with the boxer's longer reach and makes it harder for a boxer to punch with their weight going forward onto the lead leg. It's also a way to distract a boxer and make an opening for moving in close.

WC used this way is much like Jon Jones' "Oblique Kick" in MMA. The WC stance helps keep the body back out of the way.

youtube john jones stop kick - Bing video

Put what you just described with western boxing hands and you have a primary strategy/method from Savate! ;)
 

geezer

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Put what you just described with western boxing hands and you have a primary strategy/method from Savate! ;)

On the other hand, when used with Wing Chun hands, the spine is typically kept more vertical, rather than leaning back as you extend the kick in savate, with the objective being to jam your opponent's offense so you can enter using WC hands.

So Keith, what about the second question? Are you still developing your WC Boxing, or are you moving away from the WC aspects altogether?
 

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On the other hand, when used with Wing Chun hands, the spine is typically kept more vertical, rather than leaning back as you extend the kick in savate, with the objective being to jam your opponent's offense so you can enter using WC hands.

So Keith, what about the second question? Are you still developing your WC Boxing, or are you moving away from the WC aspects altogether?

What wing chun aspect isn't contained within boxing.

I mean ok. Kicks, hand shapes.
 

KPM

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On the other hand, when used with Wing Chun hands, the spine is typically kept more vertical, rather than leaning back as you extend the kick in savate, with the objective being to jam your opponent's offense so you can enter using WC hands.

So Keith, what about the second question? Are you still developing your WC Boxing, or are you moving away from the WC aspects altogether?

Taking a break from Wing Chun and focusing on Bowie Knife and Spanish Navaja right now. But I will say that the punching art I am moving towards is much more like Panantukan. Much more free-flowing than Wing Chun. Something I've been picking up from Marcaida Kali. He uses the multiple sinawali patterns with the sticks to create a flowing defensive and offensive response with the empty hands. Its pretty instinctive and straight-forward when you've worked the sinawali patterns enough. At this point I doubt I'll be doing much Wing Chun in the future. I've been burned once too often and, in my aging years, finally learned my lesson! Far too many small-minded and petty people involved in Wing Chun. Present company excluded, of course! ;)
 

Gerry Seymour

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Does that mean you have abandoned your work developing a "Wing Chun Boxing" or are still working on a fusion of Western Boxing and TCMA using some WC concepts?

One traditional WC concept I've found useful that really works well from a WC back-weighted stance is using the front leg as a straight-on leg check or stop-kick to your opponent's front leg. Sort of a leg-jab to the shin or knee striking with the bottom of the foot. From a WC perspective it copes with the boxer's longer reach and makes it harder for a boxer to punch with their weight going forward onto the lead leg. It's also a way to distract a boxer and make an opening for moving in close.

WC used this way is much like Jon Jones' "Oblique Kick" in MMA. The WC stance helps keep the body back out of the way.

youtube john jones stop kick - Bing video
I use this sort of approach in sparring, too. I've had reasonable success with it, and I tend to prefer hand striking at a range that's only slightly longer than what I understand to be optimal for WC striking, so I'd expect it to be as useful for WC. That back-weighted stance might even give it an advantage over my usage.
 

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Taking a break from Wing Chun and focusing on Bowie Knife and Spanish Navaja right now. But I will say that the punching art I am moving towards is much more like Panantukan. Much more free-flowing than Wing Chun. Something I've been picking up from Marcaida Kali. He uses the multiple sinawali patterns with the sticks to create a flowing defensive and offensive response with the empty hands. Its pretty instinctive and straight-forward when you've worked the sinawali patterns enough. At this point I doubt I'll be doing much Wing Chun in the future. I've been burned once too often and, in my aging years, finally learned my lesson! Far too many small-minded and petty people involved in Wing Chun. Present company excluded, of course! ;)
My (rather brief) exposure to FMA stick work had a similar impact on my approach to striking. My stick skills are mediocre, but I've integrated what I understand from them into some of my approach to my primary art. The flow in the stick transitions fits nicely with some of the more accessible "aiki" principles.
 
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geezer

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Taking a break from Wing Chun and focusing on Bowie Knife and Spanish Navaja right now. But I will say that the punching art I am moving towards is much more like Panantukan. Much more free-flowing than Wing Chun. Something I've been picking up from Marcaida Kali. He uses the multiple sinawali patterns with the sticks to create a flowing defensive and offensive response with the empty hands. Its pretty instinctive and straight-forward when you've worked the sinawali patterns enough. At this point I doubt I'll be doing much Wing Chun in the future. I've been burned once too often and, in my aging years, finally learned my lesson! Far too many small-minded and petty people involved in Wing Chun. Present company excluded, of course! ;)

The FMA I've done has had a huge effect on my Wing Chun to the point where I am no longer in agreement with a lot of the teachings of my WC association ...and yet I've still been paying them steep monthly dues. Go figure.

On the plus side I finally got promoted to "4th Level Technician" last summer and got a nice certificate ...which is stowed away in a drawer somewhere. I know I'll never reach the next rank and that's fine with me. Maybe I should try something new at this point? Just thinking out loud you know.

At any rate must say I've really enjoyed learning from your own eclectic MA journey as you have shared it on this forum.
 
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yak sao

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The FMA I've done has had a huge effect on my Wing Chun to the point where I am no longer in agreement with a lot of the teachings of my WC association.

Steve, what are some things that FMA does that you prefer over VT?
 

geezer

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Steve, what are some things that FMA does that you prefer over VT?
It's more about the way I do some of the movements. I think what I do is good VT, but it differs from some of the way my association teaches it. Sometimes I can explain my take on an empty hand movement better by comparing it to how I use a stick or blade. But the real problem is that the association way is authoritarian ...their way is the right way.

Sometimes it's almost like a religion. And sometimes I like to think for myself even if I'm wrong. The system of Escrima I do (coming from Latosa concepts and Torres DTE) encourages that. VT not so much.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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It's more about the way I do some of the movements. I think what I do is good VT, but it differs from some of the way my association teaches it. Sometimes I can explain my take on an empty hand movement better by comparing it to how I use a stick or blade. But the real problem is that the association way is authoritarian ...their way is the right way.

Sometimes it's almost like a religion. And sometimes I like to think for myself even if I'm wrong. The system of Escrima I do (coming from Latosa concepts and Torres DTE) encourages that. VT not so much.
This is one of the reasons I'm not in an association. There are some things I want to do my way, even if I don't think it's inherently better. Some of them I think are better, at least for the way I teach. None of that is really good for an association that's looking for unity. I was invited to rejoin the association a year or two ago, but can't seem to explain to them how different some of my work is.
 

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On the plus side I finally got promoted to "4th Level Technician" last summer and got a nice certificate ...which is stowed away in a drawer somewhere. I know I'll never reach the next rank and that's fine with me.

---As long as you've been doing Wing Chun....and they make it that difficult to move up in their organization? I say "screw 'em!" :cool:
Wing Chun is NOT that complicated! I truly believe it was designed to be a more "streamlined" version of TCMA. I see no reason why the curriculum would be dragged out over decades!

Maybe I should try something new at this point? Just thinking out loud you know.

---Absolutely! Even if you end up coming back to Wing Chun you will do it with a new perspective and new insights. But be aware....all the petty and small-minded people won't approve! ;)

At any rate must say I've really enjoyed learning from your own eclectic MA journey as you have shared it on this forum.

---Thanks Steve! :)
 

yak sao

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Yeah I've got to say I really enjoy just kind of doing things my way. I'm still associated with my sifu, but it's very much a live-and-let-live relationship.

I think there comes a time when WC, or whatever MA you are practicing has to become your own. It's hard to do that when you are made to walk in lockstep with everyone else.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Nice to see that Wing Chun debates are still going.
As long as we don't get into the following arguments:

- First you need to develop the "snake engine".
- We don't do this.
- Your WC is not pure.
- What you do is against the WC principles.
- WC is not only for fighting. If you want to learn how to fight, get yourself a gun.
- People have used WC to beat up MMA guys for years. If you can't use WC in MMA, you havent learned your art.
- ...
 

Transk53

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As long as we don't get into the following arguments:

- First you need to develop the "snake engine".
- We don't do this.
- Your WC is not pure.
- What you do is against the WC principles.
- WC is not only for fighting. If you want to learn how to fight, get yourself a gun.
- People have used WC to beat up MMA guys for years. If you can't use WC in MMA, you havent learned your art.
- ...

Absolutely,

Henrick popped up on Facebook too. Agree with you, I probably tried to wind you up previously, but despite that I always found you to be a good source of information.
 

Gerry Seymour

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As long as we don't get into the following arguments:

- First you need to develop the "snake engine".
- We don't do this.
- Your WC is not pure.
- What you do is against the WC principles.
- WC is not only for fighting. If you want to learn how to fight, get yourself a gun.
- People have used WC to beat up MMA guys for years. If you can't use WC in MMA, you havent learned your art.
- ...
You left out "you don't understand WC, that's clear because you don't understand my vague posts".
 

Transk53

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As I have learnt along the way, Wing Chun itself has evolved In the minds of hearts of many. I myself have a more combat orientated style for the modern age. IMHO, through experience of defending myself etc, those that stick to doctrine is fine, but in the modern age, that doctrine has shifted fundamentally, the tenants of Wing Chun were written ages ago, and back then a baseball bat wasn't anyway near, but a baseball bat could still cap your knee cap if you don't know a effective front kick to alter the body to direct it to your defensive elbow to deflect and strike with your other elbow then withdraw to go in again. Sorry but the so called authentic Wing Chun isn't going to work in the 21st century, without opening yourselves to new techniques to compliment. This VT and etc is going to do anything but get you beat up. Members may well disagree, but I would wager you don't what a fight is. Just my personal take, no offence intended.
 
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