The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

[drop bear]

Not everyone that practices a ma is young, in shape and willing to bang. This is not a black and white issue. Where unless your going 100% resistance, everything else is just useless and fake.
The analogy I see is snapping people's elbows with an arm bar during practice. You done have to practice with full intensity but you also don't want the guy to tap before you even get it on. It should be looked at as taking a fall is aikido ' s version of a tap out. As long as the attack is proper and the technniques are sound and proper a tap or a fall is irrelevant in cases where it is training not competition.

See for me if the technique is proper you will get the tap or fall. If it is not you will not get the tap or fall.

Which I consider pretty relevant.

 

[hoshin1600]

Minor details but irimi nage is a bit different from a cloth line in the force vector and irimi works on an arch.

 

[drop bear]

Minor details but irimi nage is a bit different from a cloth line in the force vector and irimi works on an arch.

If the other guy is going to fall over regardless as to what I do. I dont think the details are that important.

 

[hoshin1600]

See for me if the technique is proper you will get the tap or fall. If it is not you will not get the tap or fall.

Which I consider pretty relevant.

If the other guy is going to fall over regardless as to what I do. I dont think the details are that important.

i have a feeling your not understanding my view point...either that or your just digging in your heels and refuse to see any validity in a non MMA view.
so instead of wasting my time trying to convince you of something, i will turn it over to you. you tell me....how can i practice stand up techniques like irimi nage or any of the wrist break type techniques (and i mean wrist breaks, because i do not believe pain compliance works on a standing opponent) how should i be practicing these without damage to my partner and without going so slow that they are not realistic?? techniques need to be done fast and powerful with a full range of motion but without injury.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i have a feeling your not understanding my view point...either that or your just digging in your heels and refuse to see any validity in a non MMA view.
so instead of wasting my time trying to convince you of something, i will turn it over to you. you tell me....how can i practice stand up techniques like irimi nage or any of the wrist break type techniques (and i mean wrist breaks, because i do not believe pain compliance works on a standing opponent) how should i be practicing these without damage to my partner and without going so slow that they are not realistic?? techniques need to be done fast and powerful with a full range of motion but without injury.

I'll drop in a few thoughts from a less antagonistic viewpoint, just for the sake of sharing ideas (I don't assume you need this input, but maybe it can be helpful).

With techniques where going for the fall is a safety measure, I work hard to give good feedback after the fall. Sometimes I'll say, "I wouldn't have had to fall to escape that one." Other times, "Wow, that one had me locked before I could even change directions." That spoken feedback can help your partners some, since they aren't getting as much of the failure feedback. I sometimes ask my uke how it felt, if I don't think they're providing good enough verbal feedback. If I never get negative feedback, I start getting purposely sloppy, to make sure they are notice and tell me.

Where I can safely (for both of us) do so, I'll even stymie a technique that fails early enough for me to recognize it before starting toward the fall. I've had experienced uke do the same for me. And when I'm really on, I can sometimes delay going for the fall later than is normal, to ensure I'm not giving in too easily.

Slower practice can also help. For an experienced uke, a 25% slowdown can give them enough time to recognize the need to fall (or the lack of that need) without losing a reasonably realistic momentum flow. Of course, even that 25% slowdown will give me an unnatural amount of ability to read attacks and respond to them, so that has to be taken into account.

 

[drop bear]

i have a feeling your not understanding my view point...either that or your just digging in your heels and refuse to see any validity in a non MMA view.
so instead of wasting my time trying to convince you of something, i will turn it over to you. you tell me....how can i practice stand up techniques like irimi nage or any of the wrist break type techniques (and i mean wrist breaks, because i do not believe pain compliance works on a standing opponent) how should i be practicing these without damage to my partner and without going so slow that they are not realistic?? techniques need to be done fast and powerful with a full range of motion but without injury.

Treat them as a worst case scenario. So if you hit that ninja wrist break and all you get is a defensive reaction. What is your follow up?

If you hit that wrist and they collapse screaming you could probably live with not having as well versed a backup plan for that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Treat them as a worst case scenario. So if you hit that ninja wrist break and all you get is a defensive reaction. What is your follow up?

If you hit that wrist and they collapse screaming you could probably live with not having as well versed a backup plan for that.

This should be the approach to every technique, IMO. It's the focus of a large part of my teaching. Every technique can fail, and some failures are predictable (i.e., it's pretty easy to tell what will cause them to fail, so you can prepare for where you'll find yourself when they do). Most failures actually are really good set-ups for another technique - even the touchier aiki techniques.

 

[hoshin1600]

Treat them as a worst case scenario. So if you hit that ninja wrist break and all you get is a defensive reaction. What is your follow up?

If you hit that wrist and they collapse screaming you could probably live with not having as well versed a backup plan for that.

you didnt answer the question.

What is your follow up?

this is changing the topic. in the stand up game your follow up is a strike or something else. its not a hard concept to grasp. let me translate into something you can relate to....
i got you up against the cage, my shoulder and weight leaning on you. i am holding your right hand pined to the fence (typical set up) i release my hand pressure and redirect your hand, this allows me to do a wrist crank that should damage your ligaments.(this is not an end game move there should be follow up with strikes regardless of it working of not) if i do this to slow you will see it coming and punch me in the head and pull your hand away before i can even attempt it. if i go at the speed necessary to get the grip and rotation the chances of injury are high.
so how do you practice this???
stand up grappling (if you want to call it that) is different then the ground game. it is much faster and the leverage dynamics are different. on the ground there is an immovable mass (your body) on one side of the fulcrum and slow leverage can be applied because your trapped there by the floor and the opponent. but in stand up there is mobility. you can wiggle and or shake out of the lock. so locks need to be done quicker and without the floor causing the immovable mass on the end of the fulcrum the lock doesnt work by leverage alone it needs to be a quick snapping action to counter a movable mass.

 

[hoshin1600]

 

[drop bear]

you didnt answer the question.

this is changing the topic. in the stand up game your follow up is a strike or something else. its not a hard concept to grasp. let me translate into something you can relate to....
i got you up against the cage, my shoulder and weight leaning on you. i am holding your right hand pined to the fence (typical set up) i release my hand pressure and redirect your hand, this allows me to do a wrist crank that should damage your ligaments.(this is not an end game move there should be follow up with strikes regardless of it working of not) if i do this to slow you will see it coming and punch me in the head and pull your hand away before i can even attempt it. if i go at the speed necessary to get the grip and rotation the chances of injury are high.
so how do you practice this???
stand up grappling (if you want to call it that) is different then the ground game. it is much faster and the leverage dynamics are different. on the ground there is an immovable mass (your body) on one side of the fulcrum and slow leverage can be applied because your trapped there by the floor and the opponent. but in stand up there is mobility. you can wiggle and or shake out of the lock. so locks need to be done quicker and without the floor causing the immovable mass on the end of the fulcrum the lock doesnt work by leverage alone it needs to be a quick snapping action to counter a movable mass.

If you are risking getting punched in the head to pull off a wrist lock. It is probably the wrong time or the wrong technique.

Your dilemma is not really unique.

 

[hoshin1600]

If you are risking getting punched in the head to pull off a wrist lock. It is probably the wrong time or the wrong technique.

Your dilemma is not really unique.

So basically your going to ignore the question and just stick to the dogma that MMA is the best and everything else is not worth your time.
Ok I see how it is. I'll refrain from my attempts for dialog from this point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are risking getting punched in the head to pull off a wrist lock. It is probably the wrong time or the wrong technique.

Your dilemma is not really unique.

Agree with you 100% there. When SC was evolved into combat SC (add in kick and punch), the major change is to consider whether your opponent's hand can punch you or not.

For example, when you apply the waist surrounding hip throw, your opponent's free hand can punch you. But when you apply the under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw, your opponent doesn't have free hand. This make a big difference by evolving from "sport" into "combat".

For the following 2 different hip throws, IMO, 2 > 1

1. Waist surrounding hip throw - his opponent's left arm is still free.

2. Under hook hip throw - his opponent's left arm is lifted by his right under hook.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Something I don't understand about the Aikido training. Some technique depending on your opponent grabs on your wrist. You then apply your technique. What if your opponent suddenly release his grip and used his free hand to counter your counter. There is nothing to stop him from releasing his grip. That part of training seems to be missing in the Aikido training. I don't like that dependency. I prefer to train all techniques by I grab my opponent's arm instead. But people may not call that "self-defense".

At 0.25 and 0.32 of the following clip, how do you avoid your opponent from releasing his grip?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Something I don't understand about the Aikido training. Some technique depending on your opponent grabs on your wrist. You then apply your technique. What if your opponent suddenly release his grip and used his free hand to counter your counter. There is nothing to stop him from releasing his grip. That part of training seems to be missing in the Aikido training. I don't like that dependency. I prefer to train all techniques by I grab my opponent's arm instead. But people may not call that "self-defense".

There's always "what ifs"....
First, someone who is grabbing you is going to be focused on that grab. Secondly, there is a speed factor.
If someone reaches out to grab me in the manner shown, and I want to do irimi nage (or something similar), I'll extend the arm I want them to grab (they'll go for the easy grab - magicians use a similar technique and call it a magicians force) and start the counter while they're still getting a grip on my arm. By the time they get the grip, you're already them, starting the pressure on the neck. At that point, it doesn't really matter overmuch if they do release the grab; you're in a position to either do your own grab during the movement or just maintain pressure against the inside of the wrist (which traps their arm and gives you some leverage). By the time you change arms, they will have turned loose anyway.
If they do turn loose earlier, then "what if" I had the good sense to not continue a takedown that wouldn't work, and did something else. Just like they did?
What if... what if... what if...

 

[hoshin1600]

Something I don't understand about the Aikido training. Some technique depending on your opponent grabs on your wrist. You then apply your technique. What if your opponent suddenly release his grip and used his free hand to counter your counter. There is nothing to stop him from releasing his grip. That part of training seems to be missing in the Aikido training. I don't like that dependency. I prefer to train all techniques by I grab my opponent's arm instead. But people may not call that "self-defense".

At 0.25 and 0.32 of the following clip, how do you avoid your opponent from releasing his grip?

I will only speak for myself on this.
Most aikido is not practiced as a self-defense aim but rather as a cooperative partner exersize aimed at self actualization. If practiced as self defense, the techniques are much more condensed. Most schools practice techniques with a long hesitation in time between the first moment of contact until the completion of the technique. For self defense this time lag will have to be shortened to a one, two count or even just a one count. Part of what I was trying to get across to drop bear was that for me an aiki technique is not a finnish move but just something that happens in the exchange. So if my opponent releases his grip that's fine by me I was going to be punching, kicking and throwing elbows anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something I don't understand about the Aikido training. Some technique depending on your opponent grabs on your wrist. You then apply your technique. What if your opponent suddenly release his grip and used his free hand to counter your counter. There is nothing to stop him from releasing his grip. That part of training seems to be missing in the Aikido training. I don't like that dependency. I prefer to train all techniques by I grab my opponent's arm instead. But people may not call that "self-defense".

At 0.25 and 0.32 of the following clip, how do you avoid your opponent from releasing his grip?

Properly used, those are drills. Those drills include the entry and the finish. Between entry and finish, there can be many alternatives. Trained properly, the recovery from counters should be there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will only speak for myself on this.
Most aikido is not practiced as a self-defense aim but rather as a cooperative partner exersize aimed at self actualization. If practiced as self defense, the techniques are much more condensed. Most schools practice techniques with a long hesitation in time between the first moment of contact until the completion of the technique. For self defense this time lag will have to be shortened to a one, two count or even just a one count. Part of what I was trying to get across to drop bear was that for me an aiki technique is not a finnish move but just something that happens in the exchange. So if my opponent releases his grip that's fine by me I was going to be punching, kicking and throwing elbows anyway.

I think you’re saying something I was explaining recently to some folks. Many of the aiki techniques are alternatives to standard techniques. If the flow and control happen, I can use an aiki finish, rather than continuing to a “harder” throw/lock.

 

[drop bear]

So basically your going to ignore the question and just stick to the dogma that MMA is the best and everything else is not worth your time.
Ok I see how it is. I'll refrain from my attempts for dialog from this point.

I answered the question twice.

So far you are the only one who is suggesting that people should just throw themselves. Rather than having the person who is supposed to throw you actually throw you.

I don't think I am using a MMA only concept here.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think you’re saying something I was explaining recently to some folks. Many of the aiki techniques are alternatives to standard techniques. If the flow and control happen, I can use an aiki finish, rather than continuing to a “harder” throw/lock.

like i said, i will only speak for myself. in my experience "things happen" its not always neat and orderly like practice. logically we know this but often we dont know what that concept actually looks like. things in a confrontation get messy. i have found myself set up for a kotegashi and have no idea how i ended up with their hand in mine. i grabbed it automatically and didnt even know it. the training repetition manifests itself regardless if the practice seems realistic to others or not. are there pit falls and areas that can be improved yeah sure. but the techniques need to happen subconsciously and naturally. this can only happen through repetition and sometimes being concerned with the "what ifs" is counter productive. like the clip i posted many of the techniques should flow from one to the other. i do not see many aiki schools doing this but i think they should. disclaimer: i only got to black belt so maybe its something seen more after that rank.
i do know that my Teacher Fumio Toyota had his technique "tool box" and was good at randomly pulling out different techniques and switching from one to another fluidly. presumably as a response to the changing circumstances of the attack. as uke it also kept me alert and on my toes.

 

[drop bear]

I will only speak for myself on this.
Most aikido is not practiced as a self-defense aim but rather as a cooperative partner exersize aimed at self actualization. If practiced as self defense, the techniques are much more condensed. Most schools practice techniques with a long hesitation in time between the first moment of contact until the completion of the technique. For self defense this time lag will have to be shortened to a one, two count or even just a one count. Part of what I was trying to get across to drop bear was that for me an aiki technique is not a finnish move but just something that happens in the exchange. So if my opponent releases his grip that's fine by me I was going to be punching, kicking and throwing elbows anyway.

Then that is how you practice it without pretending to fall over or without crippling your training partner in an effort to pull a move off.