The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

[Gerry Seymour]

Even if the punch itself goes kind of wonky you run a risk of getting clipped.

Now if you had been fighting the guy for ten minutes and have seen him do that punch. So you set up the conditions and then hope he goes the way you want him to. And you know that if you get clipped he doesn't have the juice to end your fight. You could start pulling moves like that off.

But there are not many self defence situations where that is going to present itself. I mean look at MMA and something as simple as an overwrap of the arm. It never gets pulled off.

Agreed. IMO, most of the movement you see in drills like that is for flow after making contact. If I have contact with an arm, I can reliably do a lot that is sketchy at best when I don't already have that contact. Part of the issue in some areas of Aikido is that they've stopped training any significant striking, so they're trying to grapple with punches they should be fighting through. You simply can't Aikido a flurry of punches unless the guy is charging in with them (that overcommitment of weight), and even then it's sketchy until you still an arm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lets take this idea a step further. What technique do you never see in Krav sparring?

And this is one of the iconic krav defences. They are drilling this as a basic fundemental technique.

And look I have tried to pull that off because if I could step in with blasting or blitzing. ( forgot what they call it) I would basically make the other guy do a backflip.

I have found there is no time generally.

It is the big disconnect.

Might pull it off if someone tries to sucker-punch, but he broadcasts it. Other than that, yeah. I can't see it working when someone knows you're sparring, or when they're bringing a series of attacks.

 

[JP3]

i watched the video and im not a fan. its better then some things but its still has the same problems that i see so often. in the clip he talks about following the punch back in with a push or kotegaishi.

The video is a teaching video, to show people "how" to set up the drill. It's not meant to be live-fire, full-tilt boogie ("FTB") SD in all its ugly. Learn the steps of the dance, learn the dance, Then go make it rain. Hopefully.

The thing is, when this drill is practiced FTB it looks Bad. It looks Ugly. Both uke and tori have a huge potential for injury... the usual trade-off between training and realism. I've had to use two of the techniques in that drill set for real, and they work as one would think. Quick, direct, brutal. One had some aiki-feeling to it, the other expressed itself straight-in. That comes out of practicing the drill.

 

[punisher73]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

I can't recall the Aikido sensei/master, but in the early days of Aikido the sensei was challenged by a boxer. One of the students went first and got schooled. When the Sensei went next, he off angled away and then entered with an irimi-nage. He did not try and "catch" the punches being thrown because he knew they were balanced and were too fast.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

I can't recall the Aikido sensei/master, but in the early days of Aikido the sensei was challenged by a boxer. One of the students went first and got schooled. When the Sensei went next, he off angled away and then entered with an irimi-nage. He did not try and "catch" the punches being thrown because he knew they were balanced and were too fast.

That irimi nage is something we don't have (in the same incarnation) in NGA, and something I've always wanted to explore more. The closest technique we have (almost certainly both derived from the same technique in Daito-ryu) is our Spin-around, but it activates differently. In the form I teach it, it's more about using an off-angle weight drop to pull them off their structure.

Anyway, yes. The drill shown in the previous video, IMO, isn't really about doing a Kotegaeshi from a jab. It's about learning to work with a hand that's retracting, which nearly always presents an opening for Kotegaeshi if you are on the outside of the arm. I work a lot with dropping weight onto the arm in blocks, to shift weight. People tend to naturally shift that weight back, creating openings in both directions, depending upon timing. And timing is really what aiki application is about. In this video, he has to time his hip shift with the momentum of the attack. Absent correct timing, this technique becomes unavailable, and it's time (literally) for a different technique.

 

[drop bear]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

I can't recall the Aikido sensei/master, but in the early days of Aikido the sensei was challenged by a boxer. One of the students went first and got schooled. When the Sensei went next, he off angled away and then entered with an irimi-nage. He did not try and "catch" the punches being thrown because he knew they were balanced and were too fast.

The training like above is very misleading. Even catching the body like that is incredibly hard in real time.

So that even though you think that you have included all the elements that are required to make that technique work. You actually haven't.

And you can test it pretty easy. Because you could do that drill with boxing gloves on.

 

[Buka]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

I can't recall the Aikido sensei/master, but in the early days of Aikido the sensei was challenged by a boxer. One of the students went first and got schooled. When the Sensei went next, he off angled away and then entered with an irimi-nage. He did not try and "catch" the punches being thrown because he knew they were balanced and were too fast.

I love watching that take down.

 

[O'Malley]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

I can't recall the Aikido sensei/master, but in the early days of Aikido the sensei was challenged by a boxer. One of the students went first and got schooled. When the Sensei went next, he off angled away and then entered with an irimi-nage. He did not try and "catch" the punches being thrown because he knew they were balanced and were too fast.

The Aikido master you're talking about must be Gozo Shioda who fought a G.I. who used boxing techniques. He ignored the jab and entered deep, caught the dominant right hand and executed a shiho nage. He said afterwards that the jab was just a feint and that the real weapon was the right hand so he controlled it before it could do any damage.

According to him, you need to enter without being concerned by the opponent's attack because it will only result in confrontation. You need to move first because "clearly, you can't deal with a boxer's speed by waiting", and then rely on your senses to improvise with the best suited technique.

Source: Aikido Shugyo by Gozo Shioda.

Note: in the chapter that follows this story, he states that the throws he has most used in real fights to great effect were irimi nage, hiji ate kokyu nage (which is kind of the Yoshinkan equivalent of ude kime nage) and the fundamental shiho nage.

That irimi nage is something we don't have (in the same incarnation) in NGA, and something I've always wanted to explore more. The closest technique we have (almost certainly both derived from the same technique in Daito-ryu) is our Spin-around, but it activates differently. In the form I teach it, it's more about using an off-angle weight drop to pull them off their structure.

Anyway, yes. The drill shown in the previous video, IMO, isn't really about doing a Kotegaeshi from a jab. It's about learning to work with a hand that's retracting, which nearly always presents an opening for Kotegaeshi if you are on the outside of the arm. I work a lot with dropping weight onto the arm in blocks, to shift weight. People tend to naturally shift that weight back, creating openings in both directions, depending upon timing. And timing is really what aiki application is about. In this video, he has to time his hip shift with the momentum of the attack. Absent correct timing, this technique becomes unavailable, and it's time (literally) for a different technique.

I've recently read a blog post stating that Osensei, when asked, used to answer that aiki has nothing to do with timing and I tend to agree.

I'm sure I don't understand everything about it but the aiki I've seen, felt and used to some extent happens even in static positions where timing is irrelevant (i.e. when a guy does a static grab on your wrist, the moment when you execute the technique doesn't matter). I might add that as long as you don't stop the flow, you can do it as slowly as you want and the technique will still work on a mechanical POV (of course you wouldn't want to slow down too much in a real fight because even though he's unbalanced you can't let the opponent take the initiative). In the video, for example, even if they were doing it slowly or static, he should be able to unbalance his partner with little effort without relying on the attack's momentum.

Like this (from 1:11 onwards):

The aikidoka in the "irimi vs punches" video seems to be actually "cheating" in a way: from what I see, he seems to be pulling the attacker's lower back and then come at his head with his arm, unbalancing his partner using both bodies' opposing momentums. And this sir seems to be using a lot of strength. Not to say that it doesn't work (even though I'd be curious to see this technique against a bigger opponent) but the mechanics at work are not the same as the aikido irimi nage.

It actually looks like a technique I've learnt in Kajukenbo, where you use your hip/leg to provide fulcrum, instead of blocking the lower back (see here at 3:41):

From what I can manage to grasp, aiki is the "blending" of your "force" with your partner's "force" by not opposing it, which allows you to subtly change the direction of both "forces" with a rotating/spiraling movement ("defensive" aiki). It leads you to a position/situation/dynamic where you can apply a throw, a pin or even a strike when your opponent is defenseless ("offensive" aiki). This requires very little strength. Using aiki, you can also connect your center to uke's for both the aforementioned defensive and offensive purposes. Aiki seems to be more of a structural concept and can be really static, as showed by this video (at 2:35):

Or here in Daito Ryu where "I apply aiki" does not mean "I use the opponent's momentum" (1:53):

To this, you can add the concepts of keeping a correct, relaxed and connected body structure (akin to what is studied in the Chinese internal martial arts).

Then, there is kokyu ryoku, which I understand as the "breath power" coming from keeping a relaxed and connected body and using the power of the whole body with the right timing for both defense and offense (there's an element of breathing too). Simply put, kokyu ryoku is the power one uses to move his center and uke's which are connected with aiki. It is more of a dynamic concept and includes timing: you need to blend with the attack at the right time: the better you blend and the stronger the attack, the more power you can redirect and add to your kokyu ryoku.

Those concepts overlap to some extent and my understanding of them is still very immature, yet I wanted to answer to the affirmation that aiki is "just timing".

Now going back to the original topic (sorry for the rant), I think that indeed some/too many flavours of aikido have become more of a "martial dance" than a martial art, focusing only on the "ki no nagare" (dynamic flow work) and throwing out of the window such basic concepts as good body structure, power generation, correct angles and lines, weapon work, resistance, etc.

Now the Founder was by all accounts a fantastic fighter and a lot of his students (and their students) were outstanding too. Even though the art has been diluted, there are still teachers left who teach aikido as a martial art. We just have to rediscover what made aikido work for OSensei and his students in fights. Moreover, a part of the aikido community seems aware of this issue and is working on solutions: we see more cross-training than before (just like the guy in the video) and some people are even training in internal arts to try and replicate OSensei's strength. I think that Aikido has a lot of tools that can make it really effective but it needs proper teaching, hard training and the courage to actually get out there and put the skills to the test, be it by messing around with like-minded people (I have done this and even though it didn't look like the kata and needed some shoulder-shoving I have managed to get sankyo, kotegaeshi, etc.) or by doing live-blade sparring in the dark like OSensei's students.

Oh and I think that if we figure out how to irimi against skilled resisting opponents a lot of problems will be solved.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Aikido master you're talking about must be Gozo Shioda who fought a G.I. who used boxing techniques. He ignored the jab and entered deep, caught the dominant right hand and executed a shiho nage. He said afterwards that the jab was just a feint and that the real weapon was the right hand so he controlled it before it could do any damage.

According to him, you need to enter without being concerned by the opponent's attack because it will only result in confrontation. You need to move first because "clearly, you can't deal with a boxer's speed by waiting", and then rely on your senses to improvise with the best suited technique.

Source: Aikido Shugyo by Gozo Shioda.

Note: in the chapter that follows this story, he states that the throws he has most used in real fights to great effect were irimi nage, hiji ate kokyu nage (which is kind of the Yoshinkan equivalent of ude kime nage) and the fundamental shiho nage.



I've recently read a blog post stating that Osensei, when asked, used to answer that aiki has nothing to do with timing and I tend to agree.

I'm sure I don't understand everything about it but the aiki I've seen, felt and used to some extent happens even in static positions where timing is irrelevant (i.e. when a guy does a static grab on your wrist, the moment when you execute the technique doesn't matter). I might add that as long as you don't stop the flow, you can do it as slowly as you want and the technique will still work on a mechanical POV (of course you wouldn't want to slow down too much in a real fight because even though he's unbalanced you can't let the opponent take the initiative). In the video, for example, even if they were doing it slowly or static, he should be able to unbalance his partner with little effort without relying on the attack's momentum.

Like this (from 1:11 onwards):

The aikidoka in the "irimi vs punches" video seems to be actually "cheating" in a way: from what I see, he seems to be pulling the attacker's lower back and then come at his head with his arm, unbalancing his partner using both bodies' opposing momentums. And this sir seems to be using a lot of strength. Not to say that it doesn't work (even though I'd be curious to see this technique against a bigger opponent) but the mechanics at work are not the same as the aikido irimi nage.

It actually looks like a technique I've learnt in Kajukenbo, where you use your hip/leg to provide fulcrum, instead of blocking the lower back (see here at 3:41):

From what I can manage to grasp, aiki is the "blending" of your "force" with your partner's "force" by not opposing it, which allows you to subtly change the direction of both "forces" with a rotating/spiraling movement ("defensive" aiki). It leads you to a position/situation/dynamic where you can apply a throw, a pin or even a strike when your opponent is defenseless ("offensive" aiki). This requires very little strength. Using aiki, you can also connect your center to uke's for both the aforementioned defensive and offensive purposes. Aiki seems to be more of a structural concept and can be really static, as showed by this video (at 2:35):

Or here in Daito Ryu where "I apply aiki" does not mean "I use the opponent's momentum" (1:53):

To this, you can add the concepts of keeping a correct, relaxed and connected body structure (akin to what is studied in the Chinese internal martial arts).

Then, there is kokyu ryoku, which I understand as the "breath power" coming from keeping a relaxed and connected body and using the power of the whole body with the right timing for both defense and offense (there's an element of breathing too). Simply put, kokyu ryoku is the power one uses to move his center and uke's which are connected with aiki. It is more of a dynamic concept and includes timing: you need to blend with the attack at the right time: the better you blend and the stronger the attack, the more power you can redirect and add to your kokyu ryoku.

Those concepts overlap to some extent and my understanding of them is still very immature, yet I wanted to answer to the affirmation that aiki is "just timing".

Now going back to the original topic (sorry for the rant), I think that indeed some/too many flavours of aikido have become more of a "martial dance" than a martial art, focusing only on the "ki no nagare" (dynamic flow work) and throwing out of the window such basic concepts as good body structure, power generation, correct angles and lines, weapon work, resistance, etc.

Now the Founder was by all accounts a fantastic fighter and a lot of his students (and their students) were outstanding too. Even though the art has been diluted, there are still teachers left who teach aikido as a martial art. We just have to rediscover what made aikido work for OSensei and his students in fights. Moreover, a part of the aikido community seems aware of this issue and is working on solutions: we see more cross-training than before (just like the guy in the video) and some people are even training in internal arts to try and replicate OSensei's strength. I think that Aikido has a lot of tools that can make it really effective but it needs proper teaching, hard training and the courage to actually get out there and put the skills to the test, be it by messing around with like-minded people (I have done this and even though it didn't look like the kata and needed some shoulder-shoving I have managed to get sankyo, kotegaeshi, etc.) or by doing live-blade sparring in the dark like OSensei's students.

Oh and I think that if we figure out how to irimi against skilled resisting opponents a lot of problems will be solved.

I think part of the issue is back to how we define "aiki". What I refer to (and know) as aiki is all about timing. In that video with Saito, if he reverses at the wrong moment, the technique goes away (or, more accurately, flows to a different technique). If he executes the throw too early he runs into the momentum, and too late he misses the point where execution is all flow. In the irimi nage video in the other post, the use of the momentum against momentum, to me, is not strength - it's "hard aiki" (my term for this kind of application), where he has broken the structure enough (what the hand in the back is doing) that all he needs is to place his momentum/mass in the way, and the technique occurs.

I haven't gotten a chance to see any of the schools that are working on regaining the understanding of power and application outside that (often rather extreme) flow. I know they are out there, and keep hoping to run into one, because I want to sit down and have a long talk with someone working on those areas. The Aikido I see in most dojos can't really be what Ueshiba and his early students used to gain Aikido's early reputation. Clearly something is missing, and I'd love to see it come back. I have a deep interest in it, because I see parts of NGA starting that same drift, and believe we can learn from what Aikido is now working on.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One of the biggest issues that I see with Aikido and its training is trying to apply it against things its not meant to be used against. For example, trying to pull off a kotegaishi against a jab or even a balanced right cross. There is a specific intent and "energy" of the attack (the actual movement, not some mystical "ki') that needs to be there for it to work. Just like the screwdriver/hammer analogy earlier, different tools for a different job.

Here is an example (just picked the first clip that came up on youtube) that shows more of how an aikidoka should be responding to balanced punches.

Beautiful technique, but it's only working in this case because the uke is feeding an incompetent attack. More specifically, he's throwing a lunge punch at an inappropriately close range while also failing to maintain any sort of protective cover or awareness of his target's reactions. If he tried that against a competent striker, he would end up knocked out rather than thrown. The exact same mechanics which create the irimi nage would also produce an easy knockout punch.

An appropriate second punch after the jab would be a cross rather than a lunge punch, shuffling the front foot just a few inches forward rather than stepping way too close with his rear foot and exposing his back. At the same time, his non-punching hand should be protecting his face and he should be ready for the possibility of the opponent moving offline and counter attacking, so his punching arm should be snapping back to counter the moment he misses.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Tony Dismukes i slowed the clip speed down and all kinds of problems show up. on the very first technique we can see the anticipated habitual movements by the uke. poor jab, the right punch not attacking toward the target and the arch of the back/ lifting of the chin and balance in preparation for the throw.

 

[drop bear]

Beautiful technique, but it's only working in this case because the uke is feeding an incompetent attack. More specifically, he's throwing a lunge punch at an inappropriately close range while also failing to maintain any sort of protective cover or awareness of his target's reactions. If he tried that against a competent striker, he would end up knocked out rather than thrown. The exact same mechanics which create the irimi nage would also produce an easy knockout punch.

An appropriate second punch after the jab would be a cross rather than a lunge punch, shuffling the front foot just a few inches forward rather than stepping way too close with his rear foot and exposing his back. At the same time, his non-punching hand should be protecting his face and he should be ready for the possibility of the opponent moving offline and counter attacking, so his punching arm should be snapping back to counter the moment he misses.

And we know the technique is coming. I could cartwheel out of the way if I was a hundred percent sure that attack was going to happen because I can start moving a bit earlier and with more confidence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And we know the technique is coming. I could cartwheel out of the way if I was a hundred percent sure that attack was going to happen because I can start moving a bit earlier and with more confidence.

Agreed. That's the natural disconnect between drills and actual application. I see too many places that don't make that transition, so remain disconnected. It doesn't take much to create spontaneity, but it is necessary.

 

[hoshin1600]

But it is a conflict because if the uke doesn't "take a fall" then he is going to get slammed across the neck with a forearm. I did that to someone. ...once....the gurgling sound after is not pleasant. Lucky he was ok. I was really scared.

 

[drop bear]

But it is a conflict because if the uke doesn't "take a fall" then he is going to get slammed across the neck with a forearm. I did that to someone. ...once....the gurgling sound after is not pleasant. Lucky he was ok. I was really scared.

Yeah that is why I demand everyone I punch just collapses to the ground. Because that will happen if I really nail someone and there is no middle ground in that technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah that is why I demand everyone I punch just collapses to the ground. Because that will happen if I really nail someone and there is no middle ground in that technique.

Not really the same thing, DB. The issue is that some throws are best "taken" by preparing for the fall early, to prevent injury to the uke. Unfortunately, that also means they are sacrificing balance and/or structure going in, which can make the throw artificially easy to do. I don't know a good analog in striking.

 

[drop bear]

Not really the same thing, DB. The issue is that some throws are best "taken" by preparing for the fall early, to prevent injury to the uke. Unfortunately, that also means they are sacrificing balance and/or structure going in, which can make thrtificially easy to do. I don't know a good analog in striking.

Collapso tapout monkeys. Great for making you feel like a god in training.

Not great for for any sort of realistic idea of how you are progressing technique wise.

Closelining a guy is striking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Collapso tapout monkeys. Great for making you feel like a god in training.

Not great for for any sort of realistic idea of how you are progressing technique wise.

Agreed. It’s a problem for those techniques.

Closelining a guy is striking.

Yeah,it can be, but the problem isn’t about whether it’s a strike or not. If I don’t want to damage somebody by hitting their jaw, O can wear gloves, they can wear a mouthpiece, and I can pull power without materially changing the punch (and can later practice the power on a bag). For a throw that uses the arm across the upper chest/throat, there’s no useful gear to help without changing the technique, and pulling much of the energy out of the technique can materially change it. It severely limits live practice in some cases. While they can be fun techniques, I have my personal hang-ups about anything I can’t find a way to safely practice without uke having to prep for the fall.

 

[hoshin1600]

Yeah that is why I demand everyone I punch just collapses to the ground. Because that will happen if I really nail someone and there is no middle ground in that technique.

Not everyone that practices a ma is young, in shape and willing to bang. This is not a black and white issue. Where unless your going 100% resistance, everything else is just useless and fake.
The analogy I see is snapping people's elbows with an arm bar during practice. You done have to practice with full intensity but you also don't want the guy to tap before you even get it on. It should be looked at as taking a fall is aikido ' s version of a tap out. As long as the attack is proper and the technniques are sound and proper a tap or a fall is irrelevant in cases where it is training not competition.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. It’s a problem for those techniques.


Yeah,it can be, but the problem isn’t about whether it’s a strike or not. If I don’t want to damage somebody by hitting their jaw, O can wear gloves, they can wear a mouthpiece, and I can pull power without materially changing the punch (and can later practice the power on a bag). For a throw that uses the arm across the upper chest/throat, there’s no useful gear to help without changing the technique, and pulling much of the energy out of the technique can materially change it. It severely limits live practice in some cases. While they can be fun techniques, I have my personal hang-ups about anything I can’t find a way to safely practice without uke having to prep for the fall.