a new twist on MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street

OP
C

cfr

Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
542
Reaction score
5
Location
Pittsburgh, PA.
cfr said:
Howdy all. Weve seen the same old MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street Tactics argument over and over. MMA can be practiced @ full speed. TMA is too deadly to spar with. Bla bla bla. I personally have always been on the fence, which is why Im posting this. In my very short time in MA Ive mostly been involved with closer to TMA than MMA. Problem is, every few months my head starts talking to me. It says stuff like lets try this under pressure, this wouldnt really work, has anyone ever actually done this in a real fight, etc. Whereas in the short time I did MMA I never doubted its effectiveness. Sure I saw some holes in it, but that will be in every style/ concept out there. Anyways, one of the things that really gets my head spinning is this. Ive read several times in this endless debate things like (paraphrase):

I trained in TMA for years. Then I tried MMA and couldnt believe what a big waste of time TMA was.

I had a false sense of security from TMA, MMA showed me what was practical and could really happen in a fight.

I got my butt kicked after several years of training TMA by a newbie in MMA.


Of course this isnt word for word. But weve all seen the ideas during this ongoing debate. But it occurred to me today when I had toooo much time on my hands @ work, Ive never once read the opposite. Not one time. Ive never read of someone starting out in MMA, switching to TMA, and being really glad they did it. Ive never seen the above examples in reverse. Have any of you done what Im talking about? Are you happy you did? I mean real experience here. Not theories. I have my own. And this is meant for a Self Defense point of view. Not TMA showed me the way to inner peace so its better. I mean TMA made you a better fighter than MMA. From your experience. Im not trying to re-hash the same boring argument, but find out actual experiences from people who have done this. Perhaps some of you have posted stuff like that and Ive just never noticed. Im interested.


Did I actually say all this out loud? :boing2:
 

Zoran

Black Belt
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2001
Messages
689
Reaction score
21
Location
chicago area
Just a final note. There is an old thread on Keith Hackney and the first UFC match. This gives some insights to what went on and so on.

Back on Topic:

Please forgive me for going off topic a bit here (the whole Gracie thing), but what do you guys think of going from a MMA to a TMA???
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts. So wouldn't studing another TMA just add to the mix? As I do believe the goal is to be effective at what you do. Any knowledge that may give you an edge should be included.

OR

Am I missing the whole purpose of being MMA.
 

bluenosekenpo

Orange Belt
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
86
Reaction score
4
Matt Stone said:
And it isn't so much that I'm concerned by bad rep points - I do have more good than bad. What tweaks my shorts is that some of the folks that have given me bad points have identified themselves... At least that way I can try to see things from their perspective. When some zit takes it upon himself to ding me without having the stones to say so publicly, I get back in here and sling some mud... Maybe it'll spur them into developing a spine sufficient enough to allow them to take me to task publicly rather than an electronic hit and run from some keyboard warrior.

That's all.

Thanks for owning up. At least you acknowledge your sweaty, greasy, pie holedness... :boing2:

Hhmmm, good rep, bad rep, should we consider those labels? just joking matt, smile buddy it's friday, another week surviving the coal mine.

i think what really bemuses me is this perpetual argument about style vs. style, bjj vs tkd vs kenpo... :deadhorse , or thought of in different terms,

"the orange is the real citrus fruit!"
"no, i beg to differ, the lime is the real citrus fruit dammit! "
"no you're both wrong, are you guys crackheads? the grapefruit is gods chosen citrus fruit!"

sound silly? hmmm, maybe a little introspection is in order. anyway, beautiful day here, got a date with the girlfriend tomorrow, hope the wife will let me have the car. have a good weekend. :burp:
 

gusano

Orange Belt
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
69
Reaction score
3
Location
Jamestown, NY/ Chicago, Il
I gave you negative rep points because I didn't agree with your posts. I thought that you may be able to tell we disagree by my posts. It's not a matter of having "stones", or anything else. I've only been on this board a short time and don't know how everything works yet. I gave positive points to the people I agree with also. If I agree with you I will give you positive and if I disagree I will give negative. That goes for everyone.
 

Matt Stone

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
1,711
Reaction score
30
Location
Fort Lewis, Washington
gusano said:
I gave you negative rep points because I didn't agree with your posts. I thought that you may be able to tell we disagree by my posts. It's not a matter of having "stones", or anything else. I've only been on this board a short time and don't know how everything works yet. I gave positive points to the people I agree with also. If I agree with you I will give you positive and if I disagree I will give negative. That goes for everyone.

The way I see it, if you have something to say, say it openly. It is just the way I was raised. If I were going to give you bad rep points, I'd at least toss in my name to let you know who it came from.

I guess I see the whole anonymous rep points thing like a grade school tiff... One kid doesn't like another kid, so he flicks a booger at him, shoots a spit wad, throws a rock... All anonymous, and completely immature and unrelated to whatever inspired the rocket scientist in question to do whatever he did.

You and I disagree. I tried to find a way to understand you. I even publicly admitted my incorrect understanding and posted information supporting your comments. You respond with an anonymous ding. Really grown up, I gotta say...

This entire arguement is reminiscent of the debates between which round was more lethal: 9mm or .45 ACP. Ultimately they'll both get the job done. One may be seemingly more efficient in certain circumstances, but they both have pros and cons for their use.

You believe (it seems) that BJJ/GJJ is the be all-end all of MA training. Fine. I disagree and I'm sure there are others like me (who engage in living TMA training that addresses all ranges of fighting, trying not to leave anything out) who would disagree as well. Whatever. What does it matter anyway, right? I'll normally stick with a discussion to the bitter end, but there isn't much point to this... Your views are your views. Your perspective won't change my training one bit, and mine won't change yours. Enjoy them.

:asian:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bod

gusano

Orange Belt
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
69
Reaction score
3
Location
Jamestown, NY/ Chicago, Il
Matt Stone said:
The way I see it, if you have something to say, say it openly. It is just the way I was raised. If I were going to give you bad rep points, I'd at least toss in my name to let you know who it came from.
I have been saying what I have to say openely. I'm not hiding from YOU! What the hell are you going to do? Reach through your puter and gouge my eye out? You think way too much of yourself. As for rep points, when you click on the link, it gives you the option of approving or disapproving and adding comments. I didn't see any spot for the name. Talk to the board admin if you have a problem with how things are done. Besides, I can't possibly be the only one who disagrees with you.

Charles Anzalone
716-665-9768
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
429
Location
Cromwell,CT
Matt Stone said:
You believe (it seems) that BJJ/GJJ is the be all-end all of MA training. Fine. I disagree and I'm sure there are others like me (who engage in living TMA training that addresses all ranges of fighting, trying not to leave anything out) who would disagree as well. Whatever. What does it matter anyway, right? I'll normally stick with a discussion to the bitter end, but there isn't much point to this... Your views are your views. Your perspective won't change my training one bit, and mine won't change yours. Enjoy them.

Matt- I can only speak for myself here, but as I've said before and I'll say again, I have never or ever will intend on steering someone away from their base art that they have been doing for "X" number of years, to do something else. Instead, I only try to get people to look at the number of things that are out there, and possibly add something new to their art to make it better. I'll use boxing as an example. If I can spend time with someone who is really good with their hands and learn some fine points to making my hook punch better, and then train it like crazy, granted I may never be a world class boxer, but that one punch will improve!!

The same can be said about having a good understanding of all of the ranges of fighting. Now, if that is something that you're doing at your school, I think that its great, because many TMA schools that I've seen look bad upon crosstraining. As for grappling...I dont think that its the 'ultimate art' but is is important, IMO, to at least know something about the ground. In the event that you fall or if someone is trying to take you down, maybe that little bit of grappling skill will save you. Granted, against someone like a wrestler, who does it all the time, may not help much, but its better than having nothing at all.

I feel that there is a little something to be learned from all arts, but again, my intentions are not to change someones art, but instead, have them keep an open mind to everything else that is out there.

If you feel like discussing things further, please feel free to shoot me a PM. IMO, its more productive to check the ego at the door and be able to discuss things in a friendly fashion! :asian:

Mike
 

Matt Stone

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
1,711
Reaction score
30
Location
Fort Lewis, Washington
gusano said:
I have been saying what I have to say openely. I'm not hiding from YOU!

No, just anonymously giving bad rep points as if that is some great indicator of my overall worth... Whatever. :rolleyes:

You think way too much of yourself.

Shows what you know... Again, whatever. :rolleyes:

As for rep points, when you click on the link, it gives you the option of approving or disapproving and adding comments. I didn't see any spot for the name.

How about "I think your opinion sucks. - Insert Your Name Here"

Besides, I can't possibly be the only one who disagrees with you.

Never once did I say I was infallible, never once did I say I was always right, never once did I say I expected people to agree with me 100%. I invite disagreement because it helps me analyze how what I try to say is taken, and I can take what I learn from that and revise how I present certain things.

But you are the knowitall in this discussion, because anyone who disagrees with your "BJJ is th3 d3adly" attitude... For a third time, whatever. :rolleyes: You can stop worrying about convincing me... You have no idea how I train or what I train in, but you are positive I'm doing it incorrectly. Enjoy. I'm done wasting my time discussing this with you.

MJS said:
The same can be said about having a good understanding of all of the ranges of fighting. Now, if that is something that you're doing at your school, I think that its great, because many TMA schools that I've seen look bad upon crosstraining.

Maybe I'm debating semantics, but I guess what I think of when I hear "cross training" is some flavor of the month nutrider jumping class to class to learn the newest allegedly "str33t l3thal" techniques. If we are talking about someone that is addressing all ranges of unarmed combat, addressing the use of blunt and bladed weapons (long and short), dealing with firearms (long and short), etc., then that isn't "cross training..." That's what I refer to as a living art. If an art stagnates and, for example, addresses defenses against archaic weapons but not modern weapons, then you have an art that has halted its development and begun its own death. In short order, that art will be nothing more than a hollow shell, teaching ritualized techniques devoid of life. That isn't to say that new life can't be breathed into old arts, but there isn't much chance of that happening...

The style I study has a few areas that have slowed in development. I'm working on some things to present to our Headmaster in order to spark some new life into those areas. Things like situational response, evaluation of criminal statistical information to better orient knife and gun defenses, etc.

As for grappling...I dont think that its the 'ultimate art' but is is important, IMO, to at least know something about the ground. In the event that you fall or if someone is trying to take you down, maybe that little bit of grappling skill will save you. Granted, against someone like a wrestler, who does it all the time, may not help much, but its better than having nothing at all.

I agree 150%. I started teaching my office mates Combatives (US Army hand to hand combat program), and in so doing I've had to learn some ground fighting techniques. I paired up with an attorney in my office that is a sandan in Judo and has about 10 years BJJ experience. He's taught me quite a bit, but with 18 years of pretty open minded training behind me, I see all I've learned from him thusfar already contained somewhere in my previous art's training... I didn't know it for what it was at the time, and now that I've stepped outside my art to look at it from the outside with a new perspective, I can see those new things inside my main art... Now I have to tease them back out from where they were hidden away so I can share them with my fellow students.

Today as I was teaching class, I was working on a throw with another student, and found myself in a perfect position to go into the side mount. From there I moved quickly into the mount, he tried to escape (but doesn't know how) and ended up getting into a nice sleeve choke from the rear mount.

I'm not against grappling... Not one bit. What I'm against are the BJJ nutriders that believe that BJJ is the end all. Hardly. If it were, they would be able to defeat someone equally with weapons, with striking alone, etc. They could pick a range and dominate in it. Ah, but "no style can be the best in everything," right? Well, I don't believe a) that a style defines a person, that b) a style can't contain everything, and c) that there is a need to label what I do.

If someone were to ask what style(s) I've trained in, I'd tell them Yiliquan, Baixingquan, Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Modern Arnis, Shuri-te Ha Karate-do, Ryu Te, Aikido, Boxing and Judo. If they were to ask what style I practice, the only real honest answer I can give is "my style."

I feel that there is a little something to be learned from all arts, but again, my intentions are not to change someones art, but instead, have them keep an open mind to everything else that is out there.

Sorry if you felt I was aiming my comments at you. They were meant to be more generally directed...

I believe in learning all there is to learn. I believe in breaking the rules, thinking out of the box, and never accepting limits. Others want to identify themselves with a camp, a style, a process, a culture, whatever. If I were to link myself with a label, "traditionalist" would be it... Why? Because living traditional arts were used in real conflicts at real times in history to accomplish real things. They weren't used by athletes in competitions for cash. As a soldier, one of my orientations is whether what I am learning will bring me home in one piece. I define a win as coming home. Others define a win as a choke or a submission. That essential difference in defining the fight is what causes me conflict with some MMAists and some other folks.

I'm tired and starting to ramble. No matter what I say, someone is going to take issue with my comments. Fine. I could truly care less, and some BJJ fanatic's belief that my training isn't as good as is won't slow me down nor cause me to lose any sleep.

And speaking of sleep, I think I'll go get some. Enjoy.

:asian:
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
429
Location
Cromwell,CT
Matt Stone said:
Maybe I'm debating semantics, but I guess what I think of when I hear "cross training" is some flavor of the month nutrider jumping class to class to learn the newest allegedly "str33t l3thal" techniques. If we are talking about someone that is addressing all ranges of unarmed combat, addressing the use of blunt and bladed weapons (long and short), dealing with firearms (long and short), etc., then that isn't "cross training..." That's what I refer to as a living art. If an art stagnates and, for example, addresses defenses against archaic weapons but not modern weapons, then you have an art that has halted its development and begun its own death. In short order, that art will be nothing more than a hollow shell, teaching ritualized techniques devoid of life. That isn't to say that new life can't be breathed into old arts, but there isn't much chance of that happening...

Matt- I hear ya. Alot of times, thats exactly what happens...someone goes from art to art to art, and never really gets anything out of it. My version of crosstraining....the student takes the time and spends quality time learning the art to better themselves. I CT in a few different arts and have been involved in them for quite some time. I wanted to further my knowledge more than what my base art of Kenpo was already offering me.

The style I study has a few areas that have slowed in development. I'm working on some things to present to our Headmaster in order to spark some new life into those areas. Things like situational response, evaluation of criminal statistical information to better orient knife and gun defenses, etc.

Thats awesome!!! Its good to see people with an open mind and always looking for ways to better themselves as well as their art!




I'm not against grappling... Not one bit. What I'm against are the BJJ nutriders that believe that BJJ is the end all. Hardly. If it were, they would be able to defeat someone equally with weapons, with striking alone, etc. They could pick a range and dominate in it. Ah, but "no style can be the best in everything," right? Well, I don't believe a) that a style defines a person, that b) a style can't contain everything, and c) that there is a need to label what I do.

You're right. Each style/system has is own unique thing about it.


Sorry if you felt I was aiming my comments at you. They were meant to be more generally directed...

Not a problem at all and no offense taken. As I said before, its hard at times to say whats on your mind, and be able to get the point across to people while online. I know at times, my posts can be a little misleading.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Mike
 

Marginal

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
3,276
Reaction score
67
Location
Colorado
It is kind of interesting to watch the evolution of MMA regardless. The first few UFC's had BJJ appearing to be the "ultimate" art, then others started training more for grappling, and from there, now we have Gracies walking into the ring and doing little more than kickboxing some of their matches. Dunno if that proves that BJJ was the ultimate or if it was just as incomplete as any other MA if it needed so much shoring up strikingwise.
 

hedgehogey

Green Belt
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
192
Reaction score
12
What it shows is that you need to have an "alive" base in the standup, clinch and ground phases of fighting.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 20, 2003
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
39
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Marginal said:
It is kind of interesting to watch the evolution of MMA regardless. The first few UFC's had BJJ appearing to be the "ultimate" art, then others started training more for grappling, and from there, now we have Gracies walking into the ring and doing little more than kickboxing some of their matches. Dunno if that proves that BJJ was the ultimate or if it was just as incomplete as any other MA if it needed so much shoring up strikingwise.

Gracie's kickboxing some of their matches? Really? Who? When?

If you dig a little into the Gracie's training regimen, you will find that most who fight MMA or Vale Tudo supplement their BJJ training with Boxing or other arts. Despite the marketing hype from Rorion Gracie, I think you will find more open-mindedness about the need for Cross-training in the BJJ community than in just about any other martial art.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bod

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
429
Location
Cromwell,CT
Marginal said:
It is kind of interesting to watch the evolution of MMA regardless. The first few UFC's had BJJ appearing to be the "ultimate" art, then others started training more for grappling, and from there, now we have Gracies walking into the ring and doing little more than kickboxing some of their matches. Dunno if that proves that BJJ was the ultimate or if it was just as incomplete as any other MA if it needed so much shoring up strikingwise.

Actually, in the first few events, I'd say that it was the ultimate art. However, as time went on, people started to study the art that was beating them, and of course, that made it more of a challenge for the Gracies.

As for a kickboxing match? I wouldnt say that. I agree 100% with OFK. They are all pretty much crosstraining in other arts to aid their BJJ. Look at Vitor....his hands are awesome. I've seen fights with Ralph Gracie and hes traded punches as well.

As for incomplete arts....again, the difference is, is that the MMA/BJJ guys are doing it and are not afraid to admit it. In the long run, its only making them better.

Mike
 
Top