a new twist on MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street

[cfr]

Howdy all. We’ve seen the same old MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street Tactics argument over and over. MMA can be practiced @ full speed. TMA is too deadly to spar with. Bla bla bla. I personally have always been on the fence, which is why I’m posting this. In my very short time in MA I’ve mostly been involved with closer to TMA than MMA. Problem is, every few months my head starts talking to me. It says stuff like “lets try this under pressure”, “this wouldn’t really work”, “has anyone ever actually done this in a real fight”, etc. Whereas in the short time I did MMA I never doubted it’s effectiveness. Sure I saw some holes in it, but that will be in every style/ concept out there. Anyways, one of the things that really get’s my head spinning is this. I’ve read several times in this endless debate things like (paraphrase):

I trained in TMA for years. Then I tried MMA and couldn’t believe what a big waste of time TMA was.

I had a false sense of security from TMA, MMA showed me what was practical and could really happen in a fight.

I got my butt kicked after several years of training TMA by a newbie in MMA.


Of course this isn’t word for word. But we’ve all seen the ideas during this ongoing debate. But it occurred to me today when I had toooo much time on my hands @ work, I’ve never once read the opposite. Not one time. I’ve never read of someone starting out in MMA, switching to TMA, and being really glad they did it. I’ve never seen the above examples in reverse. Have any of you done what I’m talking about? Are you happy you did? I mean real experience here. Not theories. I have my own. And this is meant for a Self Defense point of view. Not TMA showed me the way to inner peace so it’s better. I mean TMA made you a better fighter than MMA. From your experience. I’m not trying to re-hash the same boring argument, but find out actual experiences from people who have done this. Perhaps some of you have posted stuff like that and I’ve just never noticed. I’m interested.

 

[Han-Mi]

I train in traditional chung do kwan tae kwon do, and have for 13 years. I have dabbled in the MMA game and I think that, though some of my training was admittadely useless, most was very helpful. Granted, My instructor does not believe in one style beats all, So we have always trained in the basics of as many arts as we can get our hands on. I guess we are slightly in the MMA category in that sense, but we have always had a strong base in our art, and I think that that helped me define my personal fighting style and helped me to truly complete techniques correctly.

As for people going from MMA to TMA, Tank Abbot took a break from UFC to train in a couple of TMA's in order to better his fighting, and he came back better and admitted that that was what he was missing. He however was very untrained before that, just a tough guy.

one last thing is that in TMA you learn techniques that allow you to finish a fight without getting harmed, In my experience of MMA, you only learn mainly the stuff that works with brute force and allows the other person to strike you in some cases. But i could be wrong about that.

that's all I really got for ya though.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I recognize the importance of sport and the rigors of sport training; however, I have fought and won a fight simply by kicking a guy in the knee a couple of times and verbaly convincing him he could not hope to win. It worked! He thought better of continuing and we both laughed it off. I owe that to TMA. Fighting is about 10% of self defense, and I feel focusing soley on the physical sport aspect takes away from problem solving.
Sean

 

[Matt Stone]

TMA, MMA... Labels. Labels that too many people use as banners to rally behind.

People (sheeple?) are always ready to take sides, to draw lines in the sand to identify themselves. Sheeple like labels. Labels make things comfortable. Labels make things steady, dependable, readily identifiable.

Labels do nothing for you...

By labeling your training, you limit it. By saying one is this way, one is that way, you limit the totality of the experience.

Take WMA (Whatever Martial Arts) and apply it against an uncooperative, aggressive partner in gradually increasing levels of resistance to decide, ultimately, what works and what doesn't.

The regrettable fact is, simply, that 90% of TMA are so far removed from their original orientation that they have ceased to be effective, even in the tiny niche they may have carved in modern MA society. If these arts were so effective, so lethal, so dangerous to would be attackers, you wouldn't see schools advertising arts A, B and C "complimenting" the training of the other arts. If you have a school that teaches a striking art, a grappling art, and a weapon art, I would submit that all three are substandard and lacking. All three arts fail to see the totality of the "self defense" picture.

I have trained in nothing but traditional Chinese martial arts. I have been in one art since 1985, and only long after I had reached a senior grade in that art did I start exploring other arts. Not to "supplement" my main art, but to understand my only art through new eyes...

In the end I found that what I learned from these other arts was already contained in the art I already practiced. The trick was teasing the training out of what I was already doing to develop those skills further.

Train in an art, train a technique... Don't train labels, because labels will let you down every single time.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

TMA, MMA... Labels. Labels that too many people use as banners to rally behind.

hmmmm, i say this with the utmost respect, didn't you start this thread off by using labels in the subject line? i can't speak for anyone else but i tend to use acronyms, abreviations and labels because i'm lazy and don't want to have to type out mixed martial arts umpteen times. having said that, one label i'd like to toss into the trash heap is martial arts. everytime i use that term, i cringe inside, i wish there were a better label for the martial arts....doh...maybe Life Arts and Body Enhancing Labors.

regards :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

I think what ever you take TMA MMA you only get out of it what you put into it. Plus its the instructors philosophy and training methods that are called into question here. Some people go into a dojo to learn self defense, not to get into a cage and beat some one up. Some folks do it for excersize.

To put things more plainly martial arts means war art. They should incorporate almost every element of self defense. Also there are a lot of instructors who have never fought either tournament or full contact. They have learned a system. You need to find the system that is best for you.
We all have different needs and requirements. If we were all the same we wouldnt need each other right and we would all be driving Dodges we wouldnt need choices. Where in Calif are you. Im in Orange County (OC).
Maybe I can direct you to a school that will fit your needs.

 

[Trent]

Matt Stone I genuinely enjoyed your post. I've trained in both types of arts for protracted periods. It is how you train as much, or more than, what you train. If you train very poorly as many schools do to keep the masses from sweating too much, getting a bruise, and being uncomfortable with resistance to avoid high drop out rates it won't matter what you are you doing.

 

[cfr]

Where in Calif are you. Im in Orange County (OC).
Maybe I can direct you to a school that will fit your needs.

Im in Valencia. (Magic Mountain) Lots of school choices here. Its really me determining what my needs are than it is finding a school to fit them though.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

hmmmm, i say this with the utmost respect, didn't you start this thread off by using labels in the subject line?

sorry ms, you didn't start this thread, i should read more carefully before writing. sigh

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

You probably never will find someone who started w/MMA training, switched to a TMA, and was happy. There are several reasons for this.

First, the motivations for practicing MMA/sport arts (fighting, competing, winning) are often different than the motivations for practicing TMA (self-improvement, fitness, self-defense),

Second, MMA/sport training usually eschews a lot of the ritual and hierachy of TMA. If you like that freedom, then you probably won't like the rigidity of most TMA's.

There are probably more reasons, but my keyboard time is limited right now.

 

[Matt Stone]

Matt Stone I genuinely enjoyed your post. I've trained in both types of arts for protracted periods. It is how you train as much, or more than, what you train. If you train very poorly as many schools do to keep the masses from sweating too much, getting a bruise, and being uncomfortable with resistance to avoid high drop out rates it won't matter what you are you doing.

I hate TKD. It's no secret, and on occasion I have been known to wax poetic in my dislike of the art as it is most commonly taught...

However, my brother in law (a former ATA 3d degree black belt) was an awesome fighter who typically dominated his opponents. One of his classmates, David Tsuji, apparently went on to become someone of note within ATA circles. They both had the same teacher, and he made them work... So in this particular instance, with this particular instructor, I have respect for TKD - not as a "hippy-hoppy-flippy-kicky" competition joke art, but as an art that produces some fighters with incredible flexibility and pedal dexterity.

What's the difference between them and the minimall 10 year old black belt? Only how they train... And I think that is the ultimate key, the ultimate test, of what you study.

Or I could be wrong. :idunno:

 

[gusano]

MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!I think that TMA may be effective self defense against untrained fighters, but how many "attackers" are virgins to violence? I studied TMA for many years and have benefited from it in many ways. I initially wanted to learn some grappling just to be able to defend against it. After my initial exposure to it, I became addicted and instead of wanting to defend against it, I prefer to employ it. All I can say is that it was an eye opener to me to train TMA for so long and then to spar with someone who was 140 lbs soaking wet and who had no desire to stand and exchange blows but instead clinched, took me down at will, and twisted me up like a pretzel, all with a smile on his face and no malice in his heart, well that was a turning point for me. Not everyone who practices martial arts wants to fight. I have no problem with that. Just don't mislead people into believing they can defend themselves, when in fact they can't. You can't learn how to swim without getting wet.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!I think that TMA may be effective self defense against untrained fighters, but how many "attackers" are virgins to violence? I studied TMA for many years and have benefited from it in many ways. I initially wanted to learn some grappling just to be able to defend against it. After my initial exposure to it, I became addicted and instead of wanting to defend against it, I prefer to employ it. All I can say is that it was an eye opener to me to train TMA for so long and then to spar with someone who was 140 lbs soaking wet and who had no desire to stand and exchange blows but instead clinched, took me down at will, and twisted me up like a pretzel, all with a smile on his face and no malice in his heart, well that was a turning point for me. Not everyone who practices martial arts wants to fight. I have no problem with that. Just don't mislead people into believing they can defend themselves, when in fact they can't. You can't learn how to swim without getting wet.

Right on! My sentiments exactly! artyon:

 

[Disco]

Gusano, when you make the statement that,..........................
"MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!", you forget a major stipulation. -----RULES!........
There are no rules in true street fighting/self defense. Ask your self this question. When you sparred the MMA guy who took you down at will, did you see anything that you could have done to him to free yourself, but you didn't because you did not want to seriously hurt/harm him?

Sparring unto itself puts one in a different mindset. Not everybody can spar. It's not that they don't have the physical makeup to do it, they don't have the right mindset to accomplish it correctly. The so-called ring killer instinct is missing as opposed to actual self preservation in a real fight.

It's been an on going debate for many years now, but I think people are overlooking the obvious. Were comparing apples to oranges in reality.

 

[OC Kid]

MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!I think that TMA may be effective self defense against untrained fighters, but how many "attackers" are virgins to violence? I studied TMA for many years and have benefited from it in many ways. I initially wanted to learn some grappling just to be able to defend against it. After my initial exposure to it, I became addicted and instead of wanting to defend against it, I prefer to employ it. All I can say is that it was an eye opener to me to train TMA for so long and then to spar with someone who was 140 lbs soaking wet and who had no desire to stand and exchange blows but instead clinched, took me down at will, and twisted me up like a pretzel, all with a smile on his face and no malice in his heart, well that was a turning point for me. Not everyone who practices martial arts wants to fight. I have no problem with that. Just don't mislead people into believing they can defend themselves, when in fact they can't. You can't learn how to swim without getting wet.

I can only say this. I have a friend and former student who was on the 3rd APC to cross the iraqi border. He was a marine sniper assigned to force Recon. He fought hand to hand in downtown Bagdad. He said It was his (TMA) training that he used to survive. mind you in down town bagdad there are no cages with referees, no time limits, there are no holds and techniques that are not allowed, there are no styles or systems. You only survive or die. He survived. He told me there are some Iraqis he fought that didnt.

 

[Matt Stone]

The argument that there are "rules" for MMA bouts is equally applicable to TMA training... Unless you are hitting your opponent with live contact, sufficient to drop him where he stands, you're kidding yourself about your ability to disable an attacker.

It is important to bear in mind for the "street self defense" scenario that, as pointed out, predators are accustomed to violence and have likely engaged in violent acts more than once before getting around to you. That means they have their plan, they have their technique, they have their strategy. If you fail to take that into account, you will lose every time.

Additionally, you will not be attacked when you are ready for it... The predatory mentality singles out those who look weak, isolated, easy to overcome. Part of martial training is simply to provide a degree of confidence to the student and thereby avert possible attacks by making the student too much of a "hard target" to take a chance on.

When you are attacked "on the street" it certainly won't be from the front in a fighting stance, nor will traditional attacks (lunging punches, looping haymakers, long kicks) be employed... Those are used in the dojo as beginning attacks to provide a safe, easy attack to start working against. If you are a black belt and are being attacked at greater than arm's length by your opponent, you're fooling yourself about both the situation you are training for as well as the weapons that attacker will bring to the fight.

It isn't an issue of apples and oranges... An attacker attacks - it's what he does. Our collective training needs to encompass all possible aspects of what could happen, otherwise you are turning a blind eye to a variable you cannot control. Sticking your head in the sand won't make the possibility of falling, being taken down, being tackled from behind, being hit with a weapon that takes you to your knees, any less real.

 

[Disco]

When you are attacked "on the street" it certainly won't be from the front in a fighting stance, nor will traditional attacks (lunging punches, looping haymakers, long kicks) be employed... Those are used in the dojo as beginning attacks to provide a safe, easy attack to start working against. If you are a black belt and are being attacked at greater than arm's length by your opponent, you're fooling yourself about both the situation you are training for as well as the weapons that attacker will bring to the fight.

You are addressing only one of many variations in dealing with a conflict. You have described someone who blind sides you and that aspect of their attack is not always the way it will be done. Under your assessment, the attack you described is the only way it's going to happen and therefor the only way one should train to deal with said attack.

As for lunging punches, haymakers, long kicks, etc, the vast majority of people coming into conflict with each other starts out face to face and escalates into that very same direction.

As for training... Unless you are hitting your opponent with live contact, sufficient to drop him where he stands, you're kidding yourself about your ability to disable an attacker.

Your viewpoint fair enough, but I personally don't have to hit my training partner in the vital areas of his body to know I will do extensive damage to him. If you feel that it is a necessity to actually drop your opponent with live contact to prove something, then I'm at a loss for words. But that's what makes the world go round, different points of view. I wish you well with your training and hope that neither you or any of your training partners suffer any needless injuries. :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

You are addressing only one of many variations in dealing with a conflict.

And my point is that many, probably nearly all, TMA schools train against classical attacks from classically trained aggressors. The simple reality is that people simply don't confront their targets, nor do they typically inform their targets that they are about to be victimized...

There are infinite variations to infinite situations - fine. But facing off against an "attacker" that begins in either a classical fighting stance or some other stance, with a predetermined attack that you know will not impact you is fine to introduce a beginning student to possibilities of response... But you are fooling yourself if you think that even roughly approximates what will really happen "on the street."

You have described someone who blind sides you and that aspect of their attack is not always the way it will be done. Under your assessment, the attack you described is the only way it's going to happen and therefor the only way one should train to deal with said attack.

I didn't say that at all. What I said was that predators maximize the variables of the situation to favor their endeavor... That means they attack by surprise, with the most violent attack they can muster in order to subdue you (at least) and make off with whatever they desire. If their intent is to do you grievous bodily injury or death, they certainly won't attack when, where, and how you would anticipate it...

As for lunging punches, haymakers, long kicks, etc, the vast majority of people coming into conflict with each other starts out face to face and escalates into that very same direction.

And if you were to examine police statistics (which has been done in a number of articles in the popular MA ragazines; I just attended a seminar with a LEO/CO presenter, and I think you'd be surprised at what happens outside of the dojo world), you'd see that there simply are no lunging punch, front kick combinations leading off attacks... Typically it is a high, hard, right hook, and the fight ends up with both combatants on the ground at some point.

As for training... Unless you are hitting your opponent with live contact, sufficient to drop him where he stands, you're kidding yourself about your ability to disable an attacker.

I won't ask if you've been hit during training. I will ask, though, if you've ever been hit by someone who hit you so hard they broke their own hand? If not (and neither have I), then you (and I) aren't prepared for that mind-numbing shock of impact when someone intent on doing us bodily harm engages in that sneak attack... If you aren't being hit during training at even a moderate level, when the first undefended strike lands in a "real" encounter, you can toss all your training out the window as blind instinct takes over and makes you huddle up and hide...

Your viewpoint fair enough, but I personally don't have to hit my training partner in the vital areas of his body to know I will do extensive damage to him.

While your logic might work if used with "I don't have to shoot myself in the head to know I'll suffer fatal injuries," or "I don't have to stand in front of a speeding vehicle to know I'll suffer fatal injuries," it falls short by saying "I don't have to test whether I can drop a person in place, I just know I can."

What empirical evidence do you have that you can stop a person with your hands? If you don't at least occasionally engage a resisting human with force significant enough to drop them in their tracks, you really have no idea what you are capable of...

If you feel that it is a necessity to actually drop your opponent with live contact to prove something, then I'm at a loss for words.

Not to prove something, to evaluate something. If you dry fire a rifle over and over, but never fire live ammunition out of it, you don't know whether you can hit the target or not. If you fire live ammunition, but never fire at a moving target, you don't know whether you can hit the target or not. I'm not saying you have to shoot a real, live target, but you certainly have to get your training environment to mimic reality as closely as possible. There is a big difference between a dojo where you train with friends who don't want to hurt you, and "the street" (and where is this "street?" I certainly don't want to go there!) where someone is intent on injuring or maiming you.

I wish you well with your training and hope that neither you or any of your training partners suffer any needless injuries. :asian:

We don't. Train how you like, but bear in mind that my theory has endured the test of time... Armies, gladiators, duelists, all fighters and warriors of history trained in extremely rigorous fashion, oftentimes being injured or killed in the process. But the training worked.

Train how you fight, because you'll fight how you trained...

:asian:

 

[OC Kid]

Matt I agree its not what art you take but how you are prepared and taught and recieve the teaching. No one can prepare for a real self defense situation. Normally at least in my case its when im relaxing enjoying time with my family GF or freinds. Then the only thing like my pal who was in iraq could rely on was his training, reacting then acting. IMO nothing but repetition can provide that.

 

[hedgehogey]

I can only say this. I have a friend and former student who was on the 3rd APC to cross the iraqi border. He was a marine sniper assigned to force Recon. He fought hand to hand in downtown Bagdad. He said It was his (TMA) training that he used to survive. mind you in down town bagdad there are no cages with referees, no time limits, there are no holds and techniques that are not allowed, there are no styles or systems. You only survive or die. He survived. He told me there are some Iraqis he fought that didnt.

Yes, of course, because the best way to train a marine sniper is with reverse punches.

Now if you'll excuse me, i'm gona go practice my sniper rifle kata. Once I make officer I can get into the black belt club.