The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

[Gerry Seymour]

abs plastic has remarkable impact resistance qualities, they make car bumpers out of it, i suspect your assessment of its resistance to impact is very much on the low,side, and let's face it as you refuse. To test it, we only have your very rough assessment to go by

You could be correct. I feel fairly certain about the ability to disable it - the main shaft/clutch connection seems vulnerable - but you could be right about the ABS being more resilient than I expect. I have no reason to test it for a quality I have no need of, so I'll never really know...nor will I ever need to. That's the point

 

[jobo]

You could be correct. I feel fairly certain about the ability to disable it - the main shaft/clutch connection seems vulnerable - but you could be right about the ABS being more resilient than I expect. I have no reason to test it for a quality I have no need of, so I'll never really know...nor will I ever need to. That's the point

that's why the manufactures pre hammer it( or one like it) so you don't have to

 

[hoshin1600]

Look into the Merritt Stevens self-defense system.

Mokuren Dojo: Merritt Stevens Aikido

This is what I've been using to teach people how to deal with punches (all kinds, you just change the initial attack from lunge Frankenstein style, to well-performed straights, hooks and crosses etc.). And, you are performing it, once the patterns start to make themselves known, to a non-compliant partner, i.e. they don't just let the technique complete.

i watched the video and im not a fan. its better then some things but its still has the same problems that i see so often. in the clip he talks about following the punch back in with a push or kotegaishi. i dont see that working. the punch is out and back so fast it is physically impossible. Joko Wilink said "everything works when your partner is static". a punch can lash out and return in a quarter of a second. it takes that long just for the brain to go though the OODA cycle. there is not a chance that you can move your entire body to "follow" a punch on its retraction.
on the first side step technique, this is a common blocking position in many karate styles. there are a lot of variables inherent in a punch that cause this tactic to fail. the most common is that the punch has a slight arch to it (the uke in the clip is punching straight) again you have to deal with that OODA loop and your not going to have enough time to side step, but even if you could get off line you are still stepping right into that punch and your going to eat it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's why the manufactures pre hammer it( or one like it) so you don't have to

Even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter, when that measure isn't relevant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i watched the video and im not a fan. its better then some things but its still has the same problems that i see so often. in the clip he talks about following the punch back in with a push or kotegaishi. i dont see that working. the punch is out and back so fast it is physically impossible. Joko Wilink said "everything works when your partner is static". a punch can lash out and return in a quarter of a second. it takes that long just for the brain to go though the OODA cycle. there is not a chance that you can move your entire body to "follow" a punch on its retraction.
on the first side step technique, this is a common blocking position in many karate styles. there are a lot of variables inherent in a punch that cause this tactic to fail. the most common is that the punch has a slight arch to it (the uke in the clip is punching straight) again you have to deal with that OODA loop and your not going to have enough time to side step, but even if you could get off line you are still stepping right into that punch and your going to eat it.

The principle isn't that you start moving when the punch starts - you're right that there's not enough time. The principle is to recognize the pre-punch tells (a subconscious pattern matching, which is quite fast) and be moving when the punch starts. Add the necessity for a step (from distance management), and there's time to move. Mind you, that's only true when those assumptions and conditions are present. If you can't read the intent accurately (and that's never going to be 100%, and goes down when the other person has trained to reduce their tells), then it can't be done deliberately. I mostly teach people to use these sorts of responses as what happens when you end up at that point - it's not a full process (the step and response), but a drill that puts you in position for the response. In live practice, the response will still happen, but how you get to it will be quite different from the drill. And the step will still happen, but not in the same condition as in the drill, etc.

 

[hoshin1600]

Mind you, that's only true when those assumptions and conditions are present.

i think the conditions needed to have this work is quite a long list. its not like i havnt done this side step evasion before. its a stock in trade move for the kenpo i did. its just been my experience that tells me it doesnt work. (as shown)

The principle is to recognize the pre-punch tells (a subconscious pattern matching, which is quite fast)

the key here is that the other persons brain works just as fast and we forget that. its a dojo habit to assume the other person is commited to their attack and will follow through with the entire range of motion. that has not been my observation or experience. the attacker can and will also be making calculated corrections in their attack as the defender moves or tries to block and evade.

now why does the attacker have to step in the demo? the instructor even mentions something about the attacker should be stepping. why? the first dojo bad habit i had to break in myself was this need to step. stepping by its very nature implies that your positioning sucks and your too far away. i will again go back to say aikido is good for weapon defenses. if the attacker has a weapon then the mai-ai (distance) will be greater then if he is attacking with an empty fist. yeah sure the unwashed masses might throw a punch from that far away, but then again the right punch as shown is also most often the sucker punch. your not going to see it coming at least 50% of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think the conditions needed to have this work is quite a long list. its not like i havnt done this side step evasion before. its a stock in trade move for the kenpo i did. its just been my experience that tells me it doesnt work. (as shown)

the key here is that the other persons brain works just as fast and we forget that. its a dojo habit to assume the other person is commited to their attack and will follow through with the entire range of motion. that has not been my observation or experience. the attacker can and will also be making calculated corrections in their attack as the defender moves or tries to block and evade.

now why does the attacker have to step in the demo? the instructor even mentions something about the attacker should be stepping. why? the first dojo bad habit i had to break in myself was this need to step. stepping by its very nature implies that your positioning sucks and your too far away. i will again go back to say aikido is good for weapon defenses. if the attacker has a weapon then the mai-ai (distance) will be greater then if he is attacking with an empty fist. yeah sure the unwashed masses might throw a punch from that far away, but then again the right punch as shown is also most often the sucker punch. your not going to see it coming at least 50% of the time.

The need to step comes from distance management. If they are a step away, they have to step to attack. Obviously, that's nothing unique there - striking arts capitalize on this same distance.

None of the principles and practices involved are inherently problematic, so long as they aren't the sole focus. Some areas of Aikido have made that mistake, so all they have is the stylized approach. If training becomes truly reactive (where we don't try to predict all outcomes, but work to become good at reacting to what comes), then these techniques do come back into play. The exact kote gaeshi he shows there is something I've used many times on resisting partners, when they were resisting another technique (they pull back to avoid an arm bar, for instance). The sequence he shows actually covers that, but he doesn't address it explicitly, so I'm not sure if he actually covers it with students.

You are correct that the other guy will be able to make adjustments. If these movements are "slippery" enough, they often don't. I don't know how to describe that better, though it's something I've been trying to figure out how to explain for quite a while. I've had folks with hard-contact Karate experience tell me they sometimes think they're going to hit me, then just don't. That's when this type of sequence is available. For the most part, though, I find it most useful to use things like this as an exercise of principles (what makes the technique/application available), rather than viewing it as a deliberate sequence.

 

[hoshin1600]

the premise of my thinking is that there is an epidemic of bad dojo habits. its a programmed behavior we are unaware of. so aikido people look like aikido people and karate people look like karate people, so on and so on. this is why it is so common now to test what you do against others. if you want to prove a technique or principal works test it out on a non aikido person.

 

[hoshin1600]

The exact kote gaeshi he shows there is something I've used many times on resisting partners, when they were resisting another technique (they pull back to avoid an arm bar, for instance).

yes it works really well in that instance. i do the same kind of thing. but a retraction from a failed techinque and a punch are totally different and move at different speeds. and angles, the failed technique often dictates the angle.

The need to step comes from distance management. If they are a step away, they have to step to attack. Obviously, that's nothing unique there - striking arts capitalize on this same distance.

maybe my own training is getting in my way of seeing things. because for me if i am to far away to hit you then i am not throwing the punch. my opponent is trying to use his distance management and i am doing the same thing. i am trying to create angles where you do not realize how close i am, with timing and movement, when your in my "sights" i fire, but not before.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes it works really well in that instance. i do the same kind of thing. but a retraction from a failed techinque and a punch are totally different and move at different speeds. and angles, the failed technique often dictates the angle.

Yes. That's exactly it.

maybe my own training is getting in my way of seeing things. because for me if i am to far away to hit you then i am not throwing the punch. my opponent is trying to use his distance management and i am doing the same thing. i am trying to create angles where you do not realize how close i am, with timing and movement, when your in my "sights" i fire, but not before.

So do you just wait outside range until they close for you, or do you sometimes close the distance to strike?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the premise of my thinking is that there is an epidemic of bad dojo habits. its a programmed behavior we are unaware of. so aikido people look like aikido people and karate people look like karate people, so on and so on. this is why it is so common now to test what you do against others. if you want to prove a technique or principal works test it out on a non aikido person.

Interestingly, there are some aspects that are less likely to work against a (resistance-trained) aikido person - almost as unlikely as getting them to work on a Judo player. I'm more likely to find them against a Karate person.

 

[hoshin1600]

So do you just wait outside range until they close for you, or do you sometimes close the distance to strike?

as usual the answer is not so simple.
in sparring i use the analogy of two bubbles floating around in the ring (or octagon) and whenever the two bubbles touch, thats when you strike.

in a street altercation it would depend on the situation, was it an ambush? then of course he has the first move but after that the aim is to dominate the space. i decide what happens and where. so it is my goal to strike him without him striking me. but i can only strike when i am at my range. for myself my range is really, really close. it would make an aikidoka uncomfortable. i can almost rest my head on your shoulder (and sometimes i do, to protect my face) that is my fighting distance. granted i need to stay outside of that until i am ready to move in. but how i move in is important. i dont just walk right into you with my punch like they showed in the clip and that was something i was trying to point out. i take angles to shut down your defense, my punches might have arcs in them to get around your defense. and i am not standing still.

but like i said this is tactics of an experienced fighter, something that most of the time you would not run into

 

[drop bear]

Look into the Merritt Stevens self-defense system.

Mokuren Dojo: Merritt Stevens Aikido

This is what I've been using to teach people how to deal with punches (all kinds, you just change the initial attack from lunge Frankenstein style, to well-performed straights, hooks and crosses etc.). And, you are performing it, once the patterns start to make themselves known, to a non-compliant partner, i.e. they don't just let the technique complete.

There is so much that has to go right for that to come even close to working.

I don't do many techniques that require me to process that much information in that short a time frame.

Again at speed people cant move their hand in the way an inch or their head out of the way an inch to avoid a honking great big obvious punch.

Which means you have to set that shot up about two moves ahead. Which is not really my idea of self defence. Because I want a move I can just do.

See punch.

Not get knocked out.

Then progress with the fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as usual the answer is not so simple.
in sparring i use the analogy of two bubbles floating around in the ring (or octagon) and whenever the two bubbles touch, thats when you strike.

in a street altercation it would depend on the situation, was it an ambush? then of course he has the first move but after that the aim is to dominate the space. i decide what happens and where. so it is my goal to strike him without him striking me. but i can only strike when i am at my range. for myself my range is really, really close. it would make an aikidoka uncomfortable. i can almost rest my head on your shoulder (and sometimes i do, to protect my face) that is my fighting distance. granted i need to stay outside of that until i am ready to move in. but how i move in is important. i dont just walk right into you with my punch like they showed in the clip and that was something i was trying to point out. i take angles to shut down your defense, my punches might have arcs in them to get around your defense. and i am not standing still.

but like i said this is tactics of an experienced fighter, something that most of the time you would not run into

I understand these differences. That drill is about the simplest approach to the movement. More advanced drills and live work fill the gap to the variables you're talking about. My point was simply that nobody deliberately punches from outside their range (though some will misjudge it). If you're outside your range, and decide to enter, that's the energy the drill is working from. I'm not personally a fan of that move to the outside, because it's easy to counter. There are ways to get to the outside, but it's unlikely to be as simple as the drill suggests.

If your range is that close, it'd be fun to do some sparring. I tend to strike from a mid-strikers range, and am mostly at grappling inside that, so my desirable range for grappling is pretty close to your desirable range for striking. It would be an interesting interaction.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is so much that has to go right for that to come even close to working.

I don't do many techniques that require me to process that much information in that short a time frame.

Again at speed people cant move their hand in the way an inch or their head out of the way an inch to avoid a honking great big obvious punch.

Which means you have to set that shot up about two moves ahead. Which is not really my idea of self defence. Because I want a move I can just do.

See punch.

Not get knocked out.

Then progress with the fight.

Agreed. I'm not a fan of this particular approach, for that reason. I use similar drills, but for the purpose of working transitions. I think there's a lot of this type of one-step movement that just doesn't get progressed often enough to something more complete. Just that single drill changes a lot if uke adds the intention of some sort of follow-up. It gets even clearer when the punch from that drill IS the follow-up, which tends to close off that step for avoiding the punch.

 

[hoshin1600]

looking at @drop bear video clip...notice not one out of the entire clip shows someone stepping forward with the punch. the closest i saw was near the end. he stepped forward but it was only after the punch landed and the step was for his body to catch up to the momentum of his punch. most of the punches were an overhand right which is not the same as a straight right. but both have arc's to a greater or lessor degree that would cause that quasi aikido move to fail. lets face it no one but a karate guy punches in a perfectly straight line, not to mention timed with a step.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. I'm not a fan of this particular approach, for that reason. I use similar drills, but for the purpose of working transitions. I think there's a lot of this type of one-step movement that just doesn't get progressed often enough to something more complete. Just that single drill changes a lot if uke adds the intention of some sort of follow-up. It gets even clearer when the punch from that drill IS the follow-up, which tends to close off that step for avoiding the punch.

Even if the punch itself goes kind of wonky you run a risk of getting clipped.

Now if you had been fighting the guy for ten minutes and have seen him do that punch. So you set up the conditions and then hope he goes the way you want him to. And you know that if you get clipped he doesn't have the juice to end your fight. You could start pulling moves like that off.

But there are not many self defence situations where that is going to present itself. I mean look at MMA and something as simple as an overwrap of the arm. It never gets pulled off.

 

[drop bear]

looking at @drop bear video clip...notice not one out of the entire clip shows someone stepping forward with the punch. the closest i saw was near the end. he stepped forward but it was only after the punch landed and the step was for his body to catch up to the momentum of his punch. most of the punches were an overhand right which is not the same as a straight right. but both have arc's to a greater or lessor degree that would cause that quasi aikido move to fail. lets face it no one but a karate guy punches in a perfectly straight line, not to mention timed with a step.

I do that step up punch because it hits a weird range. But it becomes sort of a jab. It is really rare and it need both people to be in a specific position.

 

[drop bear]

Lets take this idea a step further. What technique do you never see in Krav sparring?

And this is one of the iconic krav defences. They are drilling this as a basic fundemental technique.

And look I have tried to pull that off because if I could step in with blasting or blitzing. ( forgot what they call it) I would basically make the other guy do a backflip.

I have found there is no time generally.

It is the big disconnect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

looking at @drop bear video clip...notice not one out of the entire clip shows someone stepping forward with the punch. the closest i saw was near the end. he stepped forward but it was only after the punch landed and the step was for his body to catch up to the momentum of his punch. most of the punches were an overhand right which is not the same as a straight right. but both have arc's to a greater or lessor degree that would cause that quasi aikido move to fail. lets face it no one but a karate guy punches in a perfectly straight line, not to mention timed with a step.

Yeah, that arc problem is what I was talking about before that I see as a problem with that step.