a new twist on MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street

gusano

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Matt Stone said:
I'd submit that, in the strictest sense of the word, it most certainly is a TMA.
Of course you do, just for the sake of argument. I submit that in the strictest or loosest sense of the word, it most certainly is NOT a TMA!

Matt Stone said:
Proving nothing other than training for the venue you compete in is the most important thing... You fight how you train, and the people that lost spent more time doing inappropriate training than they did focusing on the venue they were going to compete in..
TRUE! But what seems to evade you is that they were preparing for a FIGHT.
A fight that allowed for punching, kicking, elbows, knees, submissions, and one where the referee is not there to seperate you from the clinch or stand you back up if your on the ground. A fair fight between two willing combatants. You can call it a sport, an event, a competition, or whatever other euphemism you want but it is still a FIGHT! ...........and the people that lost spent more time doing inappropriate training than they did focusing on the venue they were going to compete in.
The "venue they were going to compete in was a FIGHT. What venue are TMA's training for?

Matt Stone said:
Have you ever seen Royce in person? He isn't the "physically unimposing, skinny Brazilian kid" you try to make him out to be... If I knew how to attach an image, I'd do so - a picture of me, my son, and Royce standing together after a demonstration he did in Japan. He isn't huge, but "physically unimposing" and "skinny" aren't phrases I'd use to describe him....
I can only reply that Royce's size must be a matter of relativity. To me he is a physically unimposing, skinny Brazilian kid. One who would probably kick my *** by the way.

Matt Stone said:
And living TMAs "crosstrained" because they also knew the importance of it as evidenced by real fights. However, their crosstraining was nowhere near as haphazard nor disjointed as most MMA nutriders pursue (a little Muay Thai, a little BJJ/GJJ, a little this, a little that)..
They obviously didn't crosstrain enough as evidenced by their failure in vale tudo matches. Why are crosstrainers "nutriders"? Because they want to train and prepare for EVERY FACET of the fight? You don't train GJJ to improve your high kicks or your backfist! You train it to learn to finish the fight. If you want to improve your takedowns or takedown defense, you need to train with wrestlers and judoka. If you want to improve your punching and kicking, you can do some boxing, kickboxing and muy thai. Whats wrong with that? They are only preparing for the fight! Then they will have all the tools necessary to "compete" in the fight.

Matt Stone said:
I would say that, having seen only the punching displayed by Royce in the UFC, that in a striking only contest, they'd be the guys who brought knives to a gun fight... They are good at what they are good at. Don't confuse the issue by equating their dominance in grappling with an all around dominance of all aspects of fighting..
I'm not confused about anything, apparently it is you who is confused. In a punching only contest (boxing match), most grapplers would get their faces tattooed at will! Unless they had previously boxed it would be as pathetic as watching a striker on the ground for his first time! I said that punches are used to compliment and setup the submission arsenal (or positional changes). Example, .....I have your back, so I palm slap your ears a couple hundred times or elbow the top of your skull repeatedly until you open up and I can sink in the choke to put you to sleep! I'm not the greatest slapper or the best elbower, but all I want to do is choke you, so I use them to get where I want to go.

Matt Stone said:
I understood it to be that GJJ was born of Helio getting his *** handed to him by his older and larger brother....
You understand incorrectly.

Matt Stone said:
Sorry, again you err... Even if Hackney knew a choke hold, the size of the pseudo-sumotori's neck and his weight/size dominance would have proven that technique as futile as the strikes could have been... I seem to remember that Hackney won by KO. Sure, he broke his hand. I attribute that to a failure to condition his weapon properly, and likely using poor technique.
I haven't erred yet. Again it is you who err. Unless you were there with tape measure to verify that his neck was too big to be choked I will not accept this excuse. FURTHERMORE, the "pseudo-sumotori's weight and size difference" have NOTHING to do with the blood carried by his carotids to his brain. Hackney did indeed KO him eventually, but if he knew a choke it could have been over much cleaner with less blood and no broken hand. Instead, the "victor" was exhausted and unable to continue to the next round because of a broken hand. Nothing against Hackney, just using his fight as an example.
 

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gusano said:
BJJ or Gracie JJ is not a TMA and is not a MMA either.

Uh, what is it then?

Royce Gracie amazed the world by winning the first few UFC's with relative ease. He was the smallest "competitor" there at 178lbs and it was the same scenario over and over,.....clinch, takedown, choke! The worlds eyes were opened and in fact many thought it was FIXED!

It was. Read Brawl some time. It was deliberately seeded to give Royce plum matches etc.
 

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Marginal said:
Uh, what is it then? .
Uh, it's a martial art, just not a traditional one.

Marginal said:
It was. Read Brawl some time. It was deliberately seeded to give Royce plum matches etc.
Well if "Brawl" says it then it MUST be gospel, NOT! UFC1, Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock was a fix? Or are you just saying Shamrock was a "plum match"? Your post proves what I'm saying!
 

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gusano said:
Uh, it's a martial art, just not a traditional one.

Yeah, but why? No katas? Seems a flimsy distinction when everything else matches up. (Or is it simply that BJJ cannot be a TMA simply because it doesn't suck in the octagon? Logic works on Sherdog, not sure if it works here.)

Well if "Brawl" says it then it MUST be gospel, NOT! UFC1, Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock was a fix? Or are you just saying Shamrock was a "plum match"? Your post proves what I'm saying!

The plum match was the boxer vs Royce. Shamrock couldn't be avoided due to the fact that winners advance, and Royce was going to have to fight him eventually.
 

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gusano said:
Uh, it's a martial art, just not a traditional one.

So please, enlighten us... What defines a TMA, a MMA and "just a MA?"

From www.gracie.com:

The Gracie style was created in Brazil in the early part of this century by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu pioneer Carlos Gracie, who studied traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu as a teenager under the great Japanese champion, Mitsuyo Maeda (known in Brazil as Conde Koma -- the "Count of Combat").

Carlos Gracie, who was interested in streetfighting and was also a boxer, quickly modified the classical techniques he learned from Count Koma to meet the demands of real, "no rules" fighting in the streets of Brazil. The young Carlos Gracie then tested and refined his system through constant matches, open to all comers, constantly working to make it more effective. At one point, he even advertised in newspapers and on street corners for new opponents upon whom to practice and further refine his art. He fought anyone and everyone who was willing, regardless of size, weight or fighting style. Even though he was a mere 135 pounds, his style was so effective that Carlos Gracie was never defeated and became a legend in Brazil.

This tradition of open challenge is a part of the heritage of the Gracie style of jiu-jitsu. Carlos Gracie taught his style of jiu-jitsu to his four younger brothers (Oswaldo, Gast瓊o, Jorge, and finally Helio) and to his older sons (including Carlson and Carley), and they in turn taught their brothers, sons, nephews and cousins. After Carlos retired from the ring, he managed the fight careers of his brothers and sons, continuing to challenge fighters of all styles throughout the world. This tradition of open challenge has been continued by his sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews, and students, who have consistently demonstrated the superiority of the Gracie style in real fights and minimum-rule matches in rings throughout the world.

So I'm proven incorrect... It's happened before. However I distinctly recall hearing (from a Gracie documentary or some such thing) that Helio spent quite a bit of time being "owned" by Carlos, and as such modified what Carlos taught him so that someone of smaller stature (Helio was smaller than Carlos) could still defeat a larger opponent...

Given the fact that there are now several generations of Gracies and others who have been training in a martial art whose origin lies in traditional JJJ, I'd say that it falls well within the realm of "traditional." It has its own traditions, its own theories, its own techniques that have been passed down for many decades and codified into one comprehensive training regimen.

In my book that makes it traditional (if one chooses to use labels).

Further, from Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: tra繚di繚tion
Pronunciation: tr&-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradition, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition

1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

That kind of cinches it, don't you think? Or do you speak a different brand of English?
 

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gusano said:
Of course you do, just for the sake of argument. I submit that in the strictest or loosest sense of the word, it most certainly is NOT a TMA!

Then, once again, what is it? If we are labeling, please tell me what label it receives?

TRUE! But what seems to evade you is that they were preparing for a FIGHT. A fight that allowed for punching, kicking, elbows, knees, submissions, and one where the referee is not there to seperate you from the clinch or stand you back up if your on the ground. A fair fight between two willing combatants. You can call it a sport, an event, a competition, or whatever other euphemism you want but it is still a FIGHT!

Please show me where I implied that NHB wasn't a rigorous test of ability... I concede(d) that most TMAs are wholly unsuited for such tests. Get off your BJJ/GJJ soapbox and try to understand what you are reading. What I said and implied was simply that they are good at what they train (grappling).

and the people that lost spent more time doing inappropriate training than they did focusing on the venue they were going to compete in.
The "venue they were going to compete in was a FIGHT. What venue are TMA's training for?

The ones that suck majorly and are producing teeny bopper black belt super sensei? Couldn't tell you. The ones that continue to "live," continue to develop and evolve? Survival.

I can only reply that Royce's size must be a matter of relativity. To me he is a physically unimposing, skinny Brazilian kid. One who would probably kick my *** by the way.

I am 5' 9", 215lbs of kettlebell lifting soldier. I met Royce in Japan, got a pic with him and my son. He is a good sized boy, not some "skinny Brazilian kid."

They obviously didn't crosstrain enough as evidenced by their failure in vale tudo matches.

And how many classical ryuha have participated in NHB matches? None that I'm aware of... There have been untrained brawlers, wrestlers, kempo, kung fu (not sure what style), wannabe sumo, judo, and scads of MMAists to name just a few.

The classical Japanese ryuha incorporated weapons, grappling, striking, etc. From what I've been taught in the style I study, the classical arts that were used in China were similarly comprehensive in scope. I know that our curriculum still contains some ground techniques, though I'll admit they aren't trained nearly enough (something I know I am changing with our area's students at least).

Why are crosstrainers "nutriders"? Because they want to train and prepare for EVERY FACET of the fight?

Because like "RBSD," MMAists often genuinely believe they've discovered something new! They think that because many arts, due to whatever reasons, have become watered down and nearly useless, their training is some major revelation! Hardly... I have yet to see an adequate response from grapplers regarding multiple opponent engagements, but they train for "every facet of the fight," right? It's an old arguement, one that is revisited constantly, but I haven't seen much in the way of answers yet...

You don't train GJJ to improve your high kicks or your backfist!

Then they aren't "preparing for EVERY FACET of the fight, are they? They should be maximizing EVERY FACET of the fight and training for EVERY FACET of the fight if they are supposed to be fully prepared for EVERY FACET of the fight... Anything less is hypocrisy.

You train it to learn to finish the fight. If you want to improve your takedowns or takedown defense, you need to train with wrestlers and judoka. If you want to improve your punching and kicking, you can do some boxing, kickboxing and muy thai. Whats wrong with that? They are only preparing for the fight! Then they will have all the tools necessary to "compete" in the fight.

And by your own arguement you point out fully that GJJ/BJJ isn't prepared for "every facet of the fight." If they were, they wouldn't need to dance around and train with all these other styles, would they? It would seem, then that BJJ/GJJ stylists are just as limited as everyone else by preparing for only a slice of the big combat pie...

I haven't erred yet. Again it is you who err. Unless you were there with tape measure to verify that his neck was too big to be choked I will not accept this excuse.

Whatever. :rolleyes: My point was that given the size and strength of the sumo wannabe, Hackney would have played hell trying to get into position to choke him. It was painfully obvious that somebody had a sick sense of humor by pairing those two in the first place.

FURTHERMORE, the "pseudo-sumotori's weight and size difference" have NOTHING to do with the blood carried by his carotids to his brain.

But they do have a direct impact on both Hackney's ability to gain position for the choke, as well as Hackney's ability to effect the choke... I don't think sumo man would have stood still letting Hackney crawl up his back to get the choke...

Hackney did indeed KO him eventually, but if he knew a choke it could have been over much cleaner with less blood and no broken hand. Instead, the "victor" was exhausted and unable to continue to the next round because of a broken hand. Nothing against Hackney, just using his fight as an example.

I agree. I think it shows that Hackney has never hit anything harder than a heavy bag. I think it shows that Hackney has studied a bogus wannabe TMA that probably has more kids in their class than adults prepared to fight in the street. I think it shows that Hackney was painfully outclassed the minute he signed the release forms, much less the moment he stepped into the octagon.
 

gusano

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Marginal said:
Yeah, but why? No katas? Seems a flimsy distinction when everything else matches up. .
No katas and no forms are only a couple of things that sets it apart from TMA.
According to Renzo and Royler Gracie, in their book 'Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Theory and Technique' , "There is an unhealthy fetishism of authority in the TMA's. Age and tradition are venerated to a degree that stifles progress. There exists an irrational faith in ancient ideas for no other reason than the fact that they are ancient. Also there is a fetishism for legend and myth. Otherwise rational people will accept the most outlandish tales of superhuman feats......"
Also, training BJJ/GJJ is very laid back and lacks the formality of TMA's.

Marginal said:
The plum match was the boxer vs Royce. Shamrock couldn't be avoided due to the fact that winners advance, and Royce was going to have to fight him eventually.
The boxer that wore one glove! You know that he was thinking, "I'm gonna jab him with this hand (gloved) and knock him out with this one (barehand)."
He only needed the barehand to TAP! He wasn't even in a submission hold! He was only mounted and so LOST and TERRIFIED that he tapped for nothing! In a boxing match with boxing rules he would have probably killed Royce. Too bad for him boxing is only a sport that is a punching contest to the front/sides of the head and body from the waist up and the referee "breaks you apart" the countless times you clinch round after round. So by your reasoning they must have given Shamrock a "plum match" in Patrick Smith because his fight didn't last any longer and ended the same way,.......with Smith tapping furiously no longer wanting to fight. Shamrock didn't need to be avoided as evidenced by his spell of furiously tapping and no longer wanting to fight when he fought Royce. Say what you will but everyone with a frontal lobe knows that if TMA's worked in a real fight then you would have TMA dominating MMA events and making big bank off it too!
 
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gusano

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Matt Stone said:
I am 5' 9", 215lbs of kettlebell lifting soldier. I met Royce in Japan, got a pic with him and my son. He is a good sized boy, not some "skinny Brazilian kid."
He's listed as 6'0, 176lbs. I'm 6'0 , 218 lbs and I am skinny. I remember when I was 176 lbs and I was skinnier then too. He's skinny dude, it's not an insult.

Matt Stone said:
And how many classical ryuha have participated in NHB matches? None that I'm aware of...
Why is that?


Matt Stone said:
... I have yet to see an adequate response from grapplers regarding multiple opponent engagements, but they train for "every facet of the fight," right? It's an old arguement, one that is revisited constantly, but I haven't seen much in the way of answers yet...
I'll answer that for you right now. With multiple opponent engagements it is not advisable to go to the ground. It is advisable to try to run away and escape if possible. The result for the grappler and striker is the same when facing multiple opponents.......you will get stomped more than likely!
Now I ask you, who do you think is better prepared to defend being taken down by multiple opponents? Multiple opponents, more often than not, will try to take YOU down and then proceed to stomp you senseless. Most "strikers" can't even defend being taken down by ONE skinny Brazilian kid, much less multiple opponents..LMAO! It will not be like the movies where the opponents circle round you and all take turns charging in to get knocked out by you one after the other. They will bum rush you and throw you to the ground and stomp the hell out of you PERIOD!

Matt Stone said:
Then they aren't "preparing for EVERY FACET of the fight, are they? They should be maximizing EVERY FACET of the fight and training for EVERY FACET of the fight if they are supposed to be fully prepared for EVERY FACET of the fight... Anything less is hypocrisy....
They are preparing with proven techniques, not useless ones. If a technique proves useful then it is used and if proven useless it is discarded. No spinning backfists or high roundhouse kicks for BJJ. Not that you can't be knocked out by those things, just that there are other things that work with a higher percentage rate of success.

Matt Stone said:
And by your own arguement you point out fully that GJJ/BJJ isn't prepared for "every facet of the fight." If they were, they wouldn't need to dance around and train with all these other styles, would they? It would seem, then that BJJ/GJJ stylists are just as limited as everyone else by preparing for only a slice of the big combat pie.....
Look at the results, they speak for themselves.

Matt Stone said:
Whatever. :rolleyes: My point was that given the size and strength of the sumo wannabe, Hackney would have played hell trying to get into position to choke him. It was painfully obvious that somebody had a sick sense of humor by pairing those two in the first place...
Hackney was in position to choke him while he rained the 50 unanswered blows down on the poor bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt Stone said:
But they do have a direct impact on both Hackney's ability to gain position for the choke, as well as Hackney's ability to effect the choke... I don't think sumo man would have stood still letting Hackney crawl up his back to get the choke......
Why not? He stood still while Hackney hammer fisted him 50 times.


Matt Stone said:
I agree. I think it shows that Hackney has never hit anything harder than a heavy bag. I think it shows that Hackney has studied a bogus wannabe TMA that probably has more kids in their class than adults prepared to fight in the street. I think it shows that Hackney was painfully outclassed the minute he signed the release forms, much less the moment he stepped into the octagon...
I saw an interview where Royce said he has never been hit harder by a person than Hackney. Hackney has a combat academy and trains submissions now also. I agree that he was unprepared as well as the others and many can learn from their mistakes.
 

gusano

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Matt Stone said:
So I'm proven incorrect... It's happened before. However I distinctly recall hearing (from a Gracie documentary or some such thing) that Helio spent quite a bit of time being "owned" by Carlos, and as such modified what Carlos taught him so that someone of smaller stature (Helio was smaller than Carlos) could still defeat a larger opponent...
Yes you have heard this somewhere I am sure. That is the party line spouted by Helio. He claims to have developed modern day GJJ from the JJJ that his brother Carlos taught him. He believes that he and his sons are the only legitimate wards of his style. However, his brother Carlos' eldest son Carlson (my professor) takes great exception to this assertion. The entire Gracie clan has contributed to modern GJJ/BJJ as they have practiced it in isolation from Japan for many years. It is a distinct style of martial art unto itself.

Matt Stone said:
Given the fact that there are now several generations of Gracies and others who have been training in a martial art whose origin lies in traditional JJJ, I'd say that it falls well within the realm of "traditional." It has its own traditions, its own theories, its own techniques that have been passed down for many decades and codified into one comprehensive training regimen.
I have trained TMA in the past and BJJ is FAR removed from your standard TMA dojo! It does indeed have it's own "traditions, its own theories, its own techniques that have been passed down for many decades and codified into one comprehensive training regimen." When I say it is not a TMA, I say it in relation to existing TMA's.

Matt Stone said:
In my book that makes it traditional (if one chooses to use labels).

Further, from Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: tra繚di繚tion
Pronunciation: tr&-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradition, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition

1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

That kind of cinches it, don't you think? Or do you speak a different brand of English?
If it makes you feel better, yes.
 

Marginal

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gusano said:
Say what you will but everyone with a frontal lobe knows that if TMA's worked in a real fight then you would have TMA dominating MMA events and making big bank off it too!

Yeah, that's kinda why BJJ's influence faded. MMA supplanted it entirely.
 

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I agree. I think it shows that Hackney has never hit anything harder than a heavy bag. I think it shows that Hackney has studied a bogus wannabe TMA that probably has more kids in their class than adults prepared to fight in the street. I think it shows that Hackney was painfully outclassed the minute he signed the release forms, much less the moment he stepped into the octagon.
And I think you should gather more information before you make judgements that has no basis besides what you saw 10 years ago. Real easy to say he should have done this and he should have done that. But during the heat of battle, you don't have time to think or second guess.

Besides, the bottom line is he won. How many others would have faired as well I wonder.

P.S.
I just amazed myself by keeping it civil.
 
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cfr

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Please forgive me for going off topic a bit here (the whole Gracie thing), but what do you guys think of going from a MMA to a TMA???

:partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon:
 

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cfr said:
Please forgive me for going off topic a bit here (the whole Gracie thing), but what do you guys think of going from a MMA to a TMA???

:partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon: :partyon:

Why move backwards when you should be moving forward??? MMA will offer 10 times the things that a TMA would. Just my thoughts.

Mike
 
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7starmantis

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MJS said:
Why move backwards when you should be moving forward??? MMA will offer 10 times the things that a TMA would. Just my thoughts.

Mike
I haven't read this entire thread so forgive me, but isn't this quite a large assumption to be making? First, the lines between MMA and TMA are quite weak and thin. Also, as many have said and many have proven, its the training that matters not the style. A MMA who trains harder and more proficient than a TMA would probably win, while a TMA who trains harder and more proficient than a MMA would most likely win. Its asinine to still be arguing over "whats better, MMA or TMA". The truth, not subjective or "to each his own" but the real truth is that its the individual and not so much their style or art.

7sm
 

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MJS said:
Why move backwards when you should be moving forward??? MMA will offer 10 times the things that a TMA would. Just my thoughts.

Mike

I guess I still remain unconvinced... I see punches and kicks as punches and kicks, and see no reason to change that. I see joint locks and holds as joint locks and holds, and see no reason to change that either. Admittedly, we don't practice all that much ground work, but I've been working with a judoka so I can understand that aspect. However, the things he's shown me (technique-wise) I have found in other areas of our training... It is more an issue of learning how to translate standing techniques we already possess into a different plane of application (and you get two more limbs to use in the process).

Maybe that makes me a MMAist now... I don't know. But the base art I study is a traditional art, and until I see someone able to best me and prove that it was because I studied that traditional art that I lost, I'll keep on doin' what I'm doin'...

When I say it is not a TMA, I say it in relation to existing TMA's.

I guess I can agree with that somewhat. I would except certain TMAs from that, or at least certain specific practitioners/teachers, but as a generalized statement (given the abysmal state of most minimall TMA schools) it can't really be argued with. I'd still maintain, though, in light of those certain specific exceptions, that from a particular perspective GJJ is just as TMA as other valid, living TMAs. Potato, po-tah-to, though I guess...
 

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Some e-stud did it again... Giving me bad reputation points but doesn't have enough sack to put a name to his actions...

When will you candy a$$e$ realize that your bad reputation points mean absolutely nothing to me??? I laugh when I see anonymous entries of disapproval... You disapprove, but not enough to make yourself known or to post your disagreeing comments.

Whatever.

If you have something to say, say it. You disagree with me, fine, say so publicly. But either come out and say it in public like an adult, or shut your sweaty, greasy, teenaged pie holes entirely.

Sheesh...
 

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7starmantis said:
I haven't read this entire thread so forgive me, but isn't this quite a large assumption to be making? First, the lines between MMA and TMA are quite weak and thin. Also, as many have said and many have proven, its the training that matters not the style. A MMA who trains harder and more proficient than a TMA would probably win, while a TMA who trains harder and more proficient than a MMA would most likely win. Its asinine to still be arguing over "whats better, MMA or TMA". The truth, not subjective or "to each his own" but the real truth is that its the individual and not so much their style or art.

7sm

Well, it sounds like you and I are agreeing on two things here. First, I havent read the entire thread either and second, you're right, it is stupid to still be arguing over whats better. Please allow me to explain where I was going with that post.

While there are still rules, IMO, a MMA match will offer you a more realistic feel to a fight, compared to a TMA school, where there are many more rules and fewer targets are offered.

The majority of MMA practioners are more open minded when it comes to things such as cross training and learning things from other arts. Certain TMA schools frown upon crosstraining or the student looking outside the box.

If you look at the first few UFC events, there were many one style, TMA fighters, who lost. The example that comes to mind here is UFC4. Royce fought Ron Van Clief(sp) in a match. Now, I give Ron a ton of credit for stepping into that ring, but what ended up happening? He lost. Now, as I said before, the MMA fights do have rules, and you always hear people say, "Well, I'd do an eye jab or groin kick, you know, those things that are not allowed." Ok....but why does the TMA student have to rely on those things to win the fight? They are almost making it sound like they are admitting that they'll lose unless they use those things. Why can't they just rely on the kicks, punches and defensive skills?

Again, please do not take this as a slam on TMA because it is not. I've trained in a TMA, but had my eyes opened to the other things that are out there as well. In addition, I'm sure that there are TMA schools that focus on certain MMA aspects, but stop and think about that for a min. How many schools do you see that never taught grappling, all of a sudden start teaching it? There had to be some sort of influence there.

Mike
 

MJS

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Matt Stone said:
I guess I still remain unconvinced... I see punches and kicks as punches and kicks, and see no reason to change that. I see joint locks and holds as joint locks and holds, and see no reason to change that either. Admittedly, we don't practice all that much ground work, but I've been working with a judoka so I can understand that aspect. However, the things he's shown me (technique-wise) I have found in other areas of our training... It is more an issue of learning how to translate standing techniques we already possess into a different plane of application (and you get two more limbs to use in the process).

In Kenpo, there are aspects of grappling, but it does not go to the length as if you were to study BJJ. Of course there are hidden aspects in every art, but there are times, where if you wanted to expand of that area, you'd be forced to crosstrain.

Maybe that makes me a MMAist now... I don't know. But the base art I study is a traditional art, and until I see someone able to best me and prove that it was because I studied that traditional art that I lost, I'll keep on doin' what I'm doin'...

Thats fine and I'm not telling you or anyone else to abandon your current training, just simply said that you'd probably have more offered in the MMA. The base art I study, Kenpo, I consider a TMA. However, considering that there is so much out there, why not learn it and make that tradition a little more modern? Again, if its something someone doesnt want to do, thats fine. I never have and never will try to steer someone away from what they've been doing for 'X' number of years, but things change, and ways of looking at things have changed as well.

Mike
 

Zoran

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Matt Stone said:
Some e-stud did it again... Giving me bad reputation points but doesn't have enough sack to put a name to his actions...

When will you candy a$$e$ realize that your bad reputation points mean absolutely nothing to me??? I laugh when I see anonymous entries of disapproval... You disapprove, but not enough to make yourself known or to post your disagreeing comments.

Whatever.

If you have something to say, say it. You disagree with me, fine, say so publicly. But either come out and say it in public like an adult, or shut your sweaty, greasy, teenaged pie holes entirely.

Sheesh...
I guess I would be the sweaty, greasy, teenaged pie hole here.

  1. I did post my disagreement.
  2. If you don't care, why post it?
The reputation counter is there to get a general feel of the MT communities opinion of what you post and the system doesn't show specific approvals or disapprovals except to the user. Since obviously you have more approvals than disapprovals, what's the problem?


Added:
Sorry for going off topic on this thread. To Matt, if you wish to continue discussing this, then PM me.
 

Matt Stone

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Zoran said:
I guess I would be the sweaty, greasy, teenaged pie hole here.

  1. I did post my disagreement.
  2. If you don't care, why post it?
The reputation counter is there to get a general feel of the MT communities opinion of what you post and the system doesn't show specific approvals or disapprovals except to the user. Since obviously you have more approvals than disapprovals, what's the problem?


Added:
Sorry for going off topic on this thread. To Matt, if you wish to continue discussing this, then PM me.

No need to PM... Knowing it was you, no worries. I don't mind disagreement. I look forward to people calling me out to defend what I think. I look forward to being able to heatedly debate something with someone and turn around and still be friendly with them (I really am that way... ask around).

And it isn't so much that I'm concerned by bad rep points - I do have more good than bad. What tweaks my shorts is that some of the folks that have given me bad points have identified themselves... At least that way I can try to see things from their perspective. When some zit takes it upon himself to ding me without having the stones to say so publicly, I get back in here and sling some mud... Maybe it'll spur them into developing a spine sufficient enough to allow them to take me to task publicly rather than an electronic hit and run from some keyboard warrior.

That's all.

Thanks for owning up. At least you acknowledge your sweaty, greasy, pie holedness... :boing2:
 
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