Testing fees?

[Sledgehammer]

Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?

 

[sfs982000]

I don't think testing fees are necessarily a scam, I can understand paying for belts, test administer time, etc.... Now I do think some schools go overboard with with their testing fees. For those that actually own/run schools I would love to hear how you break down testing fees and what the difference is in the break down between color belt and black belt testing fees.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?

Some schools charge higher tuition in lieu of testing fees. I think a lower tuition with testing fees is better as long as the decision to test is ultimately up to the student. That way you aren't paying for anything you aren't receiving.

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[mvcoburn]

Testing fees aren't bad, but what makes it difficult to swallow is when everything else is thrown in.

Example - Parent signs up a child and understands the monthly fee to be $100 per month for unlimited classes. A week or so later, the instructor approaches the parent and says that their child needs sparring gear which is about $250. Another couple of weeks go by and the instructor approaches the parent and says that the student is doing great in sparring and recommends that they attend the competition training, which is about another $100 per month (plus the cost of competition uniform and warmups which is required for all students who attend competitions). Another month goes by and the instructor informs the parent that their child is being recommended for testing, which is $50 and would like to invite them to the "Parents night out" after the test which is $25 dollars to attend. Yes, it is an investment, but most parents only see the initial month cost and don't understand the rest of what is required. In the end, the first couple of months go from $100 to $500.

I have known schools (McDojo's) to not inform their parents of up front "hidden" charges. Some of the schools I have attended charge higher testing fees with each new belt which doesn't make sense when the cost to test a white belt is the same as the cost to test a blue belt.

 

[DennisBreene]

I don't think testing fees are necessarily a scam, I can understand paying for belts, test administer time, etc.... Now I do think some schools go overboard with with their testing fees. For those that actually own/run schools I would love to hear how you break down testing fees and what the difference is in the break down between color belt and black belt testing fees.

The reality is that running a school has expenses. I would be interested in what school owners/managers experience for costs and what their return on investment is. Most of the school owners I have known have relied on other income sources, usually their primary job, to permit them to keep the doors open.

 

[Earl Weiss104]

Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?

You asked a simple question with no specific answer. I first have a question for you. How many businesses have you run? Have you had to consider; Rent, maintenance, cleaning, postage, phone, internet, banking and credit card fees, accounting and legal fees, Electricity, heat and water costs, Employment costs, advertising, etc.
Now, tell me how such costs can vary from location to location throughout the country.

So, in a sense expenses need to be covered. What is "fair" is a relative term. Does the school owner and instructer deserve to make a fair living? What is your training worth. Is it more fair for all testing revenue needs to be rolled into a higher monthly tuition for the student who needs 6 months of training for a test versus the student who can test after 3 months?

Is the school part of a larger enterprise like a community center or YMCA that sets program costs and pays a percentage or fixed amount to the instructor who needs to cover other expene like insurance thru aanother revenue source?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I have known schools (McDojo's) to not inform their parents of up front "hidden" charges. Some of the schools I have attended charge higher testing fees with each new belt which doesn't make sense when the cost to test a white belt is the same as the cost to test a blue belt.

1) I was at a club that had contracts, specifying in part that testing was optional and additional cost. The testing costs were not actually provided in the contract. I had already been there about a year and a half before I signed up for a 1 year contract. They balked somewhat when I took them up on the offer of testing being "optional" and repeatedly declined to test. The point of it being optional was of course to make the contract legal while not disclosing the cost / scaring off parents (if tests were mandatory, then the testing fees would have to be disclosed).

2) I see higher belts being more expensive due to more board breaking. Not sure the cost difference between 1 board and 4 boards as an example.

 

[Takai]

The reality is that running a school has expenses. I would be interested in what school owners/managers experience for costs and what their return on investment is. Most of the school owners I have known have relied on other income sources, usually their primary job, to permit them to keep the doors open.

Just mirrors the old adage. "Want to make a small fortune in martial arts? Start with a large fortune and open a school."

 

[granfire]

50 bucks for color belt test?
Sounds fine to me. That was what I paid 7 years ago. BB tests went to 95, but you tested less frequent, so still cheap...

There is a bunch of paper work to deal with for the tests, in my school's case they phased the wooden board out in favor of plastic rebreakables - but having to get like 3 of each color...that was a considerable investment up front.
Plus they supplied learning material for in class use, and those books added up as well.
The first few years we rented the gym of an elementary school and had tests with 3 other schools...that was an expense...

The school also outlined the cost before you signed up, once you reached green (about 4 month in) you were expected to purchase the sparring gear (list on the counter), etc...
I purchased most of my gear from the school because it was cheaper than buying online - or the other school of the same franchise down the road.

However, I also have ridden horses in the past...1200 dollars a year is nothing compared to the upkeep of a horse.

 

[Takai]

However, I also have ridden horses in the past...1200 dollars a year is nothing compared to the upkeep of a horse.

Indeed. I used to breed Arabs and you went through 1200 dollars a whole faster than a year...and that was over twen.....nevermind I refuse to get that old.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[Rumy73]

I do not like testing fees. When one pays tuition, why should he/she pay more? Now on to the details, most -- not all -- but most schools fail to disclose the escalating cost of testing fees and the frequency of tests. Often fail to explain that some aspects of the test have nothing to do with a larger certifying body. For example, at a school I attended, they wanted Taekwondo bb students to show proficiency with a staff or nunchucks. Mind you, in KKW TKD, these are not part of the picture at all. Learning something extra is fine, but when not explained to students/parents of students it is wrong. In fact, all the extra costs tend to be minimized or left unstated. Of course, the retort is one should ask questions. Well, guess the F-what, people do not know what to ask. Martial schools play the game carefully. If a prospective student/parent of a student knows enough to ask about testing fees, the master will often say, the "first test is XX dollars..." Yes, the first test and then it goes up in cost, which is left unsaid. I think that is pretty unethical. Telling students to purchase sparring gear from the school, at a greater cost than what one can find on the open market, by scaring parents into thinking "the equipment may not be of good quality..." OK, there is something to that but it is way overstated. Too much of MA is a racket. Sad but true.

 

[Rumy73]

Do you know how much boards cost? Pennies. Belts (not embroidered) are dirt cheap. There's a huge MA supply warehouse in Baltimore, MD called Warrior's Emporium. I went there years ago. When I learned what things really cost vs trusting the schools version of the cost... Anyhow bad taste in mouth.

 

[Rumy73]

Yes, but if a student does not "test" most schools will refuse to teach new curriculum. So new information is held hostage.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Yes, but if a student does not "test" most schools will refuse to teach new curriculum. So new information is held hostage.

If the curriculum is different for each rank, why would they teach new material to students who don't promote? Why bother with levels at all if the material is the same?

If a student doesn't test because he or she feels they aren't ready, shouldn't they continue to practice the old material until they are ready? If it's a money issue (lack of money or principles) then I suppose you'd just be out of luck.

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[Jaeimseu]

I do not like testing fees. When one pays tuition, why should he/she pay more? Now on to the details, most -- not all -- but most schools fail to disclose the escalating cost of testing fees and the frequency of tests. Often fail to explain that some aspects of the test have nothing to do with a larger certifying body. For example, at a school I attended, they wanted Taekwondo bb students to show proficiency with a staff or nunchucks. Mind you, in KKW TKD, these are not part of the picture at all. Learning something extra is fine, but when not explained to students/parents of students it is wrong. In fact, all the extra costs tend to be minimized or left unstated. Of course, the retort is one should ask questions. Well, guess the F-what, people do not know what to ask. Martial schools play the game carefully. If a prospective student/parent of a student knows enough to ask about testing fees, the master will often say, the "first test is XX dollars..." Yes, the first test and then it goes up in cost, which is left unsaid. I think that is pretty unethical. Telling students to purchase sparring gear from the school, at a greater cost than what one can find on the open market, by scaring parents into thinking "the equipment may not be of good quality..." OK, there is something to that but it is way overstated. Too much of MA is a racket. Sad but true.

While I have no issue with testing fees (I charged them in the past and very likely will in the future), I've always been pretty transparent with students about costs at each level, and potential expenses like sparring gear, etc. Hitting people with hidden expenses is bad business.

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[Jaeimseu]

Do you know how much boards cost? Pennies. Belts (not embroidered) are dirt cheap. There's a huge MA supply warehouse in Baltimore, MD called Warrior's Emporium. I went there years ago. When I learned what things really cost vs trusting the schools version of the cost... Anyhow bad taste in mouth.

What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.

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[Gwai Lo Dan]

What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.

I would say the profit becomes "unfair" when the explanation is less than 100% honest. For instance, "yes, the black belt test at $600 is expensive, it's because you are getting a certified black belt from the Kukkiwon in Korea".

 

[WaterGal]

Some schools charge higher tuition in lieu of testing fees. I think a lower tuition with testing fees is better as long as the decision to test is ultimately up to the student. That way you aren't paying for anything you aren't receiving.

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I think there's a fair argument to be made either way. I personally would prefer to charge higher tuition and not charge testing fees, because I don't want people to feel like they're being cheated or hit up for money all the time. But I have heard from people who tried that approach, that they got basically this complaint, that it's not fair that they have to pay the same as so-and-so who's progressing faster than them. So we go with testing fees, but I try to be upfront about it, every color belt test is the same price, and we don't push people to test or even allow them to do it before they're ready.

 

[AMP-RYU]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.

 

[WaterGal]

Just mirrors the old adage. "Want to make a small fortune in martial arts? Start with a large fortune and open a school."

Hahahaha. That's the truth, man. We definitely underestimated how expensive it was going to be. To answer Dennis's question, our costs are about $6,000/month, and after almost a year we're almost breaking even. We're getting no income from the school yet.