Unaffiliated Promotion Governance

[HighKick]

No, but having these given to me from someone else proves that someone with the authority to promote to those levels and titles believed I am worthy of them.

And don't worry, I don't take your opinion here as offensive. It's so much of an egregiously bad take that it's impossible to find any offense in it.

Your OP or my comment?
Regardless, it always begs the question of authenticity and credibility all the way up the chain. Even if I knew your training history (Hmm?) I would need to know your instructor's history and training/teaching ability. Honestly, in this day and age of 'cookie-cutter', hand out black belts, 6th Dan is not automatically 'high' Dan or highly skilled (especially in TKD), not to mention how much disparity there can be between rank and ability to teach, anything.

Even the way you worded your reply makes me scratch my head. "having these 'given' to me". No one should want their belt Given to them. They need to very much feel it is earned by Much more than TIG. And yes, I remember your strange journey to get a 4th Dan, any 4th Dan, not exclusively a KKW belt (which was your original intent).

I have probably said this to you before; "paralysis by analysis". Quit writing it down and make things concrete. They will never be 'perfect' or as planned. That is part of the fun in it. Quit finding reasons and roadblocks to Not start and just start. Fail the first time? Learn from it and start again. And again. At some point you will know owning a school/being an instructor is in your future or not. Only talking about it will get you no where.

 

[Buka40]

I am not sure that is analogous.

In my experience it is.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

for 7th and above since prior to that the entire syllabus has been learned, There is a book "Living the Martial way" where the author critiques an unnamed org for devaluing the title from 5th to 4th and questions how you can be considered a "Master " of a system when the entire system has not yet been learned as a requirement for advancement to that rank.

Agree. Devaluation of some type is often the case when organizations with an agenda take charge from the individual very senior instructor as they don't have the personal investment and pride in the teacher-student relationship and all that flows from that. For me, this is a main feature of true Traditional MA.

 

[skribs127 148]

Agree. Devaluation of some type is often the case when organizations with an agenda take charge from the individual very senior instructor as they don't have the personal investment and pride in the teacher-student relationship and all that flows from that. For me, this is a main feature of true Traditional MA.

I think there's two questions here.

1. What does "Master" truly mean by the person granting the title?
2. What is there left to truly learn past X degree in a Taekwondo system?

In regards to the first question, "Master" is a word. Just like a black belt is just a belt. A black belt means something very different in most TKD schools than it does in most BJJ schools (as an extreme example). A black belt in TKD is generally a 1-3 year degree. I know in some schools it's longer, but they are in the minority. An 8-10 year black belt in BJJ would be considered fast-tracked. I generally equate a BJJ black belt to a TKD 4th degree in terms of the amount of mat time, knowledge, experience, respect, and authority they have within their respective art. A BJJ black belt is given the title of "Professor" which I equate to the TKD title of "Master". (BJJ does have a "Master" title which is based on age instead of rank, so when I compete in BJJ I'm "Masters 2" because I'm between 35-40 years old).

In most TKD systems where you have a Master at 4th or 5th degree, you also have Grandmaster at 7th or 8th degree. I would argue that the Grandmaster title fits what you are describing as your opinion on what a Master should be. So the problem is just a difference in terminology more than anything else.

To the second question, in my experience, there was very little to learn even after black belt in the schools I attended. I've addressed this before, but at least 90% of the "new" curriculum at every stage was just recycled material re-ordered into a different combination. For example, from 1st to 4th degree black belt, I learned Kicking #9-#25. Of these...

• #9, #11-12, #14-16, and #18-23 contained techniques from previous combinations re-arranged into new combos.
• #10, #13, #17, and #25 contained techniques I had previously learned outside of the rote curriculum years before I "learned" them in the testing combination.
• #24 actually contained a new kicking concept I hadn't previously explored.

During this time, I learned more new things (whether it was a new technique, a new variation, a new detail, etc.) from my own personal experimentation or from cross-training and research than I did from class. In fact, the one detail that I really learned in class was a correction on one kick that came 3 years later than it should have.

This could speak more to my former Master's curriculum, philosophy, and/or teaching methods than it does to Taekwondo as a whole. But I don't feel like the curriculum was much added value past the black belt level. It didn't feel designed to really teach me anything (especially at the conceptual level), but instead just to give a bunch of stuff for the test.

I don't feel like my 4th degree showed much more skill than my 3rd degree test, it just showed that I could memorize more things.

On the other hand, BJJ professors are still constantly learning in an art that is constantly evolving. My Professor (4th degree black belt) has brought in world champions to cover some classes, and he's learning and asking questions from these other professors. We just brought in a new professor to help run our next location, also a 4th degree black belt. He pulled me aside after class the other day, "I messed this up during a roll, I'd like to workshop it with you real quick."

These are folks with 25+ years of experience in the art. They've been black belts in BJJ longer than some BJJ black belts have been doing BJJ. They've held the Professor for over a decade. Some of them have been world champions or at least medaled in worlds. And yet they're still learning. So I don't think "still learning" is a disqualifier from an honorific such as "Master".

 

[MadMartigan119 35]

I don't feel like my 4th degree showed much more skill than my 3rd degree test, it just showed that I could memorize more things.

A 9th Dan once told me his view of the black belt ranks as follows:
- 1st-3rd Skill building ranks
- 4th-6th Instructor ranks for knowledge building
- 7th+ Master ranks
He believed that there was little use in someone advancing past 3rd Dan unless they were teaching others, building schools, or otherwise contributing to advancing the art to others.
While I don't subscribe to that entirely, it does make some sense.

Those in my network of schools all generally take 5+ years for students to reach 1st Dan, and do not use the title or master until 6th Dan, and Grandmaster is exclusively for 9th Dans.

Your comment that your 4th Dan test was mostly just about showing that you could memorize more things, is exactly the example of why TKD rank tends to be looked down on through the rest of the martial arts world.

Too many have confused complexity with advanced skill or understanding.

These are folks with 25+ years of experience in the art. They've been black belts in BJJ longer than some BJJ black belts have been doing BJJ. They've held the Professor for over a decade. Some of them have been world champions or at least medaled in worlds. And yet they're still learning.

This is why BJJ is beating many traditional martial arts. So many TMA instructors will not even spar with their students. They try to maintain some mystique around their skills by never putting themselves in a position where a student might catch them and bruise their egos. This, while BJJ instructors are constantly trying to improve themselves.
Just like TKD, there really aren't any "new" moves to learn after black belt in either art, just more advanced understanding of application or variations of principles.

The problem is TKDs schools often only look for a new checkbox to complete to say that they've 'learned a new thing'. This results in endless memorizing of pre-set combos that do nothing to advance true understanding or practical mastery.

They need to take a page from BJJ, in how they just always try to learn a new trick that helps them apply what is already part of their skill set.

Even in patterns, there really are not new moves (outside a few esoteric ones), just different movement lessons to learn. For instance, in the Chang Hon patterns system, 95% of all the stances in the black belt forms are the same 3 stances we teach to white belts (forward, back-L, and horse stances).

There are no new types of kicks that the practitioner hasn't learned long ago. The point of the black belt patterns is to focus on more advanced ways of generating power, transition between movements more efficiently and with better balance, etc. A couple examples:

- Po-Eun at 1st Dan teaches maintaining alignment while moving laterally between stances.

- Moon-Moo at 4th Dan focuses on balancing while performing slow, controlled kicks from various angles.

- So-San at 5th Dan works on balancing shifting from new angles (not new stances, just new ways of moving between them).

Anyway, that's my rant. TKD is already built to focus on the right things after black belt, just like BJJ. It's just to many haven't understood that more memorizing does not mean more understanding and they've invented hundreds of ways to make it appear that they've learned something new, rather than just work on better understanding what they already have.

 

[skribs127 148]

- 1st-3rd Skill building ranks
- 4th-6th Instructor ranks for knowledge building
- 7th+ Master ranks

Often times this is a matter of circumstance. I started teaching both TKD and BJJ (at least the kid's classes) at blue belt.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

"Master" is a word.

True, but words have meaning. Nine out of ten people would say "master" has a popular connotation of "beyond extremely good in skill and understanding." In light of this, IMO using that word for a 4th or 5th degree is misleading.

in my experience, there was very little to learn even after black belt in the schools I attended.

As far as actual techniques learned I fully agree. In my style, and many others, 95% of the (empty handed) curriculum is learned by 1st degree.

Too many have confused complexity with advanced skill or understanding

But there is more to TMA than just knowing a technique. How it's done (flow, spontaneity, naturalness, etc.) and deep understanding of all the internal factors and muscle memory that contribute to this is a big part of one approaching "master" level.

I learned more new things (whether it was a new technique, a new variation, a new detail, etc.) from my own personal experimentation or from cross-training and research than I did from class.

Anyone can learn technique. As I hinted above, one can say the most important things are learned on one's own thru diligent study and practice over many years as the body "discovers" and teaches itself.

So I don't think "still learning" is a disqualifier from an honorific such as "Master".

Absolutely true. I wouldn't have much respect for even a 9th degree who says he knows it all. The masters I know of or have read about would all agree learning is never ending.

 

[skribs127 148]

But there is more to TMA than just knowing a technique. How it's done (flow, spontaneity, naturalness, etc.) and deep understanding of all the internal factors and muscle memory that contribute to this is a big part of one approaching "master" level.

In my experience in TKD, that's been actively discouraged. You do it the way the Master teaches and that's it.

I plan to do things different. But that's why I don't see much value in just learning more stuff.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

that's why I don't see much value in just learning more stuff.

The value isn't in just learning more stuff - you likely know enough stuff. Advancement comes with understanding and perfecting what you already know beyond simple execution of technique. Even a straight punch can provide a challenge lasting decades.

 

[skribs127 148]

The value isn't in just learning more stuff - you likely know enough stuff. Advancement comes with understanding and perfecting what you already know beyond simple execution of technique. Even a straight punch can provide a challenge lasting decades.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying there wasn't much to learn in the context of the environment I was training in.

 

[Earl Weiss124 24]

Too many have confused complexity with advanced skill or understanding.

I think this is an important idea. Perhaps not a lot of new "techniques" after 4th Dan but my understanding of concepts and ability to spot issues with how students performed and make corrections has continued to evolve.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying there wasn't much to learn in the context of the environment I was training in.

Understood. Good that you have taken the initiative to expand on that yourself.

 

[skribs127 148]

Understood. Good that you have taken the initiative to expand on that yourself.

In fact, I think being able to fully separate from the Masters that teach this way allows me greater freedom to learn things at a deeper level. Because I don't feel like I have to maintain the exact 100% proper way of doing the technique (which doesn't account for situational variations or creative uses), so I feel more free to explore.

 

[HighKick]

In my experience it is.

Meh. I see more people get caught up in the commercialism of it all.
If a person is 'holier than thou' I would say they are pretty consistent all year long.

 

[skribs127 148]

The problem is TKDs schools often only look for a new checkbox to complete to say that they've 'learned a new thing'. This results in endless memorizing of pre-set combos that do nothing to advance true understanding or practical mastery.

They need to take a page from BJJ, in how they just always try to learn a new trick that helps them apply what is already part of their skill set.

This is why my curriculum focuses on concepts and topics instead of rote material (with the exception of forms). I do believe some rote material intended to performed a specific way does have value. Maybe not necessarily direct application to a street fight in the way a lot of folks want it to, but value of:

• Teaching young kids simple things like left from right, arm from leg; and then skills such as memory, focus, discipline, listening and following directions
• Older kids the discipline to do things right even when you already know them, to continuously improve and focus on attention-to-detail
• For adults who have not been active in a while to have a repeatable exercise they can do to help keep them moving in class or at home
• For older students to have memory exercises to protect brain health as they age

Other than the forms, my curriculum is built around concepts. For example, the difference between my old master's style and my style of kicking curriculum:

Former Master	My Curriculum
Beginner: 1) front kick, 2) roundhouse kick, 3) side kick, 4) axe kick	Beginner: body kicks, stretch kicks
Beginner/Intermediate: 1) step, front kick; 2) step, roundhouse kick; 3) step-behind side kick, 4) back kick, 5) roundhouse-back kick Jump kicks: 1) jumping front kick, 2) jumping roundhouse kick, 3) flying side kick	Beginner/Intermediate: spin kicks, jump kicks, "3-stage footwork" (footwork THEN kick)
Intermediate: 1) front kick and punches, 2) roundhouse kick and punches,... Jump kicks: 4) jumping back kick	Intermediate: head kicks, jump spin kicks, "2-stage footwork" (footwork starts before the kick, as in a skip kick)

This I feel is a good compromise between the TKD way of doing things (in which advanced belt curriculum builds on lower belt items), but in such a way that it doesn't lock instructors into teaching specific rote material that covers the entire class. In the intermediate level, I can do head kicks, or I can work on beginner/intermediate items. Head kicks could simply be higher versions of the basic body kicks, could be in the axe/crescent kick suite, or hook kicks. Or I can do a brief pass over all of these options to focus more on cardio and versatility than specifically develop a single technique.

Maybe an instructor has a basic set of kicking combos they want to do every class as a warmup. That's fine on a per-instructor basis, but I'm not going to expect instructors to memorize my set of warmups to run class. If they have different ideas, that expands students knowledge instead of collapsing it.

This gives me and any other instructors the flexibility to adapt a class to what we want to teach, or what we think would best for the students to work on. For example, in my old school, if students were struggling with the back kick in #4, too bad. Because I can't stop to work on it, because we still need to get all the way up to #8 so everyone can practice every testing requirement. With my model, if I notice students are struggling with the back kick, I can skip the rest of the warmup plan (or blitz through it) and then spend time focusing on the back kick.

 

[skribs127 148]

I think for now I'm just gonna cap my school at 4th degree. As someone at the top degree in the system, I feel comfortable promoting to 4th. Just like how a 9th degree can promote to 9th in most other systems.

If at some point either we have a higher degree come in, or it is determined that 5th degree would be a swell addition to the system, I will look into it again.

 

[philwhite54 10]

I worried about this when starting my own dojo. I'm glad I've moved on. We don't do dan ranks and I'm glad we chose not to. What purpose would it serve for me to join an association, pay them fees, have no real relationship, just to get stripes sewn on my belt every few years. I've been doing this for 32 years. Unless someone can show me how to teleport or throw a proper fireball, I think I'm good.

 

[MadMartigan119 35]

I worried about this when starting my own dojo. I'm glad I've moved on. We don't do dan ranks and I'm glad we chose not to. What purpose would it serve for me to join an association, pay them fees, have no real relationship, just to get stripes sewn on my belt every few years. I've been doing this for 32 years. Unless someone can show me how to teleport or throw a proper fireball, I think I'm good.

This was something that came up recently and I came to the following conclusion.

The stripes don't matter to most of us lifers, but there is a utility to them. I've seen schools where there really are no promotional steps to take after 1st or 2nd Dan. Each time, from what I've seen, those schools struggle to keep senior students training. They all move on to new challenges or activities as there isn't a concrete next step to work towards.

The schools that I've seen keep adult senior students all have in common that there is a road map for what comes next after black belt.

There are those who don't need the milestones or external progress markers... but I think there are less of them than the ones who do.

If 1st or 2nd Dan feels like the end of the road, then what is there left to strive towards? ... especially for a person who has no interest in competition.

We all want the 1 in a million student who is self motivated and doesn't look for external validation, but that doesn't mean that there aren't many more great practitioners who may be missed out on because they just need a little something more to work towards.

 

[skribs127 148]

This was something that came up recently and I came to the following conclusion.

The stripes don't matter to most of us lifers, but there is a utility to them. I've seen schools where there really are no promotional steps to take after 1st or 2nd Dan. Each time, from what I've seen, those schools struggle to keep senior students training. They all move on to new challenges or activities as there isn't a concrete next step to work towards.

The schools that I've seen keep adult senior students all have in common that there is a road map for what comes next after black belt.

There are those who don't need the milestones or external progress markers... but I think there are less of them than the ones who do.

If 1st or 2nd Dan feels like the end of the road, then what is there left to strive towards? ... especially for a person who has no interest in competition.

We all want the 1 in a million student who is self motivated and doesn't look for external validation, but that doesn't mean that there aren't many more great practitioners who may be missed out on because they just need a little something more to work towards.

Even those that say they don't care, in my experience they do.

One of my BJJ coaches has an interesting story. He trained with my Professor in another town. My Professor moved to my current town to open a gym. This coach moved here a few months later, randomly came to our gym, and was like, "Hey, I know you!" Didn't even realize he was walking into my Professor's gym until he came in to try a class with us.

Shortly after he started with us, this coach got his 1st degree black belt. (In BJJ, you get your no-stripe black belt, and 3 years later you can get your 1st stripe). Shortly before he left (moved away), he got his 2nd degree.

This is a guy who has said that stripes don't matter, rank means nothing, it's all about what's on the mat. And yet, what are the two biggest smiles I've seen on his face? When he got his 1st and 2nd degree black belt.

And his wife said he's only cried 4 times. One when each of his 3 kids were born...and one when he got his black belt.

 

[philwhite54 10]

Most people never make it to black belt and those that do will eventually leave too. Between family, jobs, and everyday life, things happen and interests change. I just strive to make a welcoming place to train. If someone needs validation beyond that they are free to do what they like.