Unaffiliated Promotion Governance

[skribs123 143]

This is a topic I've spoken on before, but now I have a slightly different perspective. The question is simple: how to govern promotions in an unaffiliated school when I am not a 9th-degree black belt, so that the promotions cannot be easily construed by someone on the outside of the system as an impropriety. In other words, as a 4th degree belt, how do I prevent my students from having a ceiling that is somewhere below 5th degree black belt?

Previously, the question was how to do any promotions as a 3rd degree. Fortunately, that has been solved. I now have a certificate that says "4th degree" and a placard that says "Master", both of which were given to me by someone who is a 6th degree black belt. That legitimizes me as a 4th degree Master, which legitimizes me to promote people to black belt and at least 2nd degree without question. However, when I start my school, it's going to likely be either 2nd, 3rd, or 4th degree where my students will hit their ceiling, without some system in place to continue their progress and/or mine.

In TKD, I believe the convention is usually that you can promote to one degree below your current rank. So as a 4th degree black belt, my student's ceiling would be 3rd. An argument could be made to promote someone to the same rank (especially if you are the highest rank in the organization, which in most other organizations is going to be the 9th or 10th degree grandmasters). But I think it's very clear it would appear improper for me as a 4th degree to promote someone to 5th without some extra requirements.

There's the additional concern regarding conflicts of interest, such as promoting my family members (my Dad is 3rd degree, my Mom is 2nd degree, so that's a genuine possibility) as well as for example if my boss at my day job were to be a student of mine, how to handle those conflicts of interest. Speaking of day jobs, IT governance, risk, and compliance (GRC) is a big part of my day job and I am seeking to specialize in that field, so it plays a big part in my perspective in this line of inquiry.

I'm thinking of a few different hypothetical (but realistic) situations, and how to best approach them:

1. I want to promote a student from 3rd degree to 4th degree (as a 4th degree).
2. I want to promote a student from 4th degree to 5th degree (as a 4th degree).
3. With students at 3rd and/or 4th degree, it would be prudent for me to become a 5th degree, and so I want to receive a promotion to 5th degree.
4. I want to promote my Mom from 2nd to 3rd degree.
5. I want to promote my Dad from 3rd to 4th degree (as a 4th degree).

The goal is not to have everyone ratify the promotions in my school (whether or myself or someone else), but rather that most people would look at the systems in place for promotion in any of these circumstances, and see that those systems have enough controls, checks, and balances in place that this isn't just a self-promotion, quid-pro-quo promotion, or somethings else similarly improper.

Some of the ideas that I've had:

• Ignore external optics and just promote people who meet the requirements, even if I'm not of the appropriate rank. Understand that there are limitations due to the size of my "organization", and hope that others understand that. As I get more higher ranking students, we have more options to avoid conflicts of interest.
• Take an "arbiter role" as owner of the school that exists outside of the normal rank structure. This would allow me to promote anyone who meets the requirements, regardless of my rank. Also means I don't need to advance my rank unless my students push it (similar to another thread we had a few years ago in one of the other Korean sections on this board).
• Create internal policies regarding additional panel members that would be on a "quorum" based on the level of scrutiny that any individual test might receive. For example, if I were to promote my Dad to 4th degree, as a 4th degree myself and with a panel of 3rd and 4th degree black belts, I might need 3 additional members on a quorum that would need to vote unanimously to approve his promotion.
• With any of these, there may be additional time-in-grade requirements for promotions that may undergo scrutiny. For example, with the quorum solution, I may add 1 year per additional quorum member required, so a quorum of +3 individuals would require +3 years onto the time-in-grade requirement.
• Also, with any of these, if I could get a witness (even a 3rd-party witness in a similar art, such as another TKD style, or TSD, or a Karate style) who is sufficient rank to ratify the test, then I would use their rank as the authority instead of my own. For example, I know several people with 4th degree black belts in TKD, any one of them could sign the certificate to help me promote my Mom to 3rd degree.

Whenever I put out a product at work, I make sure that I would be happy being the customer of that product. As a cybersecurity professional, that often means that I need to make my systems auditable and accountable, which often includes optics in addition to effectiveness. That is why this is a consideration - I want to ensure that my students don't hit a hard ceiling early in their career, but also that their promotions stand up to good-faith scrutiny.

 

[wab25]

My 2 cents here....

I think you are over thinking this.... Put in a good system, that has checks and balances and then follow it. Expect, that as your school grows in size, that you will revisit this again when you have more folks in the mix. Then do that.

I am going to be honest here... TKD and Karate are known for people having tons of rank and not much ability. Its not hard to find any number of Masters, Grand Masters, Sokes and Super Sokes with all kinds of certificates from all kinds of organizations. If you are not in the know.... they all look good. (most anyway) Whats more challenging to find is a Karate or TKD instructor that can do and can teach.... these folks often do not have the highest degrees of rank. (this happens in Danzan Ryu as well.... there are folks teaching it that will hand you your tukus on a platter... but there are also those that will struggle against the wet paper bag... it happens in most arts... you just don't find Danzan Ryu as often)

I have trained with TKD and Karate folks that are amazing at what they do and their ability to teach. Just like I have found a good share of those that can't and shouldn't. Time on the mat with them will tell you which is which and will also tell which numbers are real and which are not.

If you get affiliated, that will solve a lot of your problems... you will have the guidelines for promoting and you will have your own path to continue your progression. But, you are not going to be affiliated. So, it does not matter. Use your own system. When you go compete, make sure your guys line up appropriately against the other groups at the same rank....

At the end of the day, you will most likely be the ceiling for your students. Even if you make it to 6th, 9th or even 15th degree black belt.... you can only teach them what you know. Which means, you need to keep learning and keep progressing yourself. The thing is that progress and rank are different things.... you can have one without the other. Just like I talked about people getting rank but not being able to perform... they got rank, but never progressed. You can progress with being given rank. But, if you are the head instructor, you need to keep your progression going forward, whether or not rank comes with that.

Since you will be unaffiliated.... it does not matter how or who you promote. You are doing the right thing, trying to come up with a good process. Pick a process that makes sense to you, that you can follow with the number of students and black belts that you have now. When your numbers grow, come back and revisit it. You are putting way more thought into this that any of your prospective students will. If they are super concerned about certification with affiliation.... then you already lost them by being not affiliated. The rest of the people will come and train and grow.

The only thing I would not do, is have people from other arts ratify the rank you give. Look at the differences you and I have had over what is taught in a given movement. Its the same movement, but my Karate background is telling me something totally different than your TKD background. Why would you want someone like me, having a say in your students promotion? That's easy to see in this example, because we have gone back and forth quite a bit, and I know you totally disagree with the way I see certain things. But, just because you have not had those type of discussions with the people you choose from other arts... does not mean that they agree with you any more than you would agree with them. My point here is to have enough confidence in yourself and in your curriculum, that you do not need people outside ratifying the rank you award. One of the positives of going unaffiliated is that you get to do things your way.

Again, put together a process that works for a small number of people, then revisit when that number grows.

And hey.... one of the guys you have had a ton of arguments with, about martial arts, thinks you are more than qualified to promote students in your own curriculum.

 

[skribs123 143]

@wab25 what is a Soke or Super Soke?

 

[wab25]

@wab25 what is a Soke or Super Soke?

From google:

A soke is the Japanese term for "head of the family" or "headmaster" of a martial arts school or traditional art. While often mistakenly thought to mean "founder," a soke is the current leader and ultimate authority of a specific martial tradition, responsible for its curriculum, promotions, and doctrine. The original founder is specifically referred to as the shodai-soke (first-generation soke).

In the Japanese arts you will find quite a few people with the title of "soke," most of the time with very questionable origins.... "Super Soke" is my poke at all the paper sokes out there, self promoting themselves to a title that they think will impress people. (there are far more of these, than there are actual sokes...)

 

[Flying Crane]

You could wait to deal with this issue until you have a student who has reached that level .

I’m guessing it could be 10-15 years or more before that happens; you never know what solutions might arise between now and then, or how your own situation might change.

 

[skribs123 143]

I think you are over thinking this.... Put in a good system, that has checks and balances and then follow it. Expect, that as your school grows in size, that you will revisit this again when you have more folks in the mix. Then do that.

Right now I have the luxury to over-think it, so I am going to take full advantage of it.

I am going to be honest here... TKD and Karate are known for people having tons of rank and not much ability.

Hence why I want to make sure that (wherever possible) I can reduce the amount that a reasonable person would assume that is the case seeing how promotions are done at my school.

The thing is that progress and rank are different things.... you can have one without the other.

This is true. However, even the most die-hard "rank doesn't matter" folks have an emotional reaction to promotions. Sometimes it's joy, sometimes it's trepidation. But there's a black belt at my BJJ gym that has said a bunch that rank doesn't matter...I have it on good authority he got pretty emotional when he got his black belt.

The only thing I would not do, is have people from other arts ratify the rank you give. Look at the differences you and I have had over what is taught in a given movement. Its the same movement, but my Karate background is telling me something totally different than your TKD background.

I disagree. I've been around the block enough, between cross-training myself, this forum, and watching a ton of different folks demonstrating techniques and principles on youtube (folks from dozens of different martial arts) that I can generally tell the difference between:

• Good technique, but different from how I do it (which I can usually find situations to apply).
• Good understanding, but poor execution due to age, injury, or disability.
• Technique that is poor, sloppy, or inconsistent.

It's also something that I would hopefully have discussions and/or training opportunities with them prior to the testing day itself so that we could figure these differences out before-hand.

I'm also saying this after going to BJJ for a few years, and all of the upper belts have a very different and unique style. I'm actually at the point where if I were to ask for private lessons, I'd pick who I ask based on what specific gaps in my skillset I want to fix. And yet we're all ranked in the same organization.

 

[skribs123 143]

You can progress with being given rank. But, if you are the head instructor, you need to keep your progression going forward, whether or not rank comes with that.

You should know from my history here that this won't be an issue. In fact, I'm trying to plan for when I open my school, how I can balance starting my school, continuing to train BJJ, and maintaining my personal financial responsibilities. In other words, how to balance the transition from day job + moonlighting as instructor to making the school my primary source of income, while still being able to train BJJ.

I think I've got that figured out, but that's a separate discussion either way.

 

[skribs123 143]

You could wait to deal with this issue until you have a student who has reached that level .

I’m guessing it could be 10-15 years or more before that happens; you never know what solutions might arise between now and then, or how your own situation might change.

Part of good governance is having plans in place for expected scenarios prior to them happening. If the precursor governance is in place when I open, then it looks a lot better than something thrown together ad hoc when I suddenly need it.

Also, it may be far sooner if I get students transferring in already with a black belt. For example: my Mom and Dad.

 

[Flying Crane]

Part of good governance is having plans in place for expected scenarios prior to them happening. If the precursor governance is in place when I open, then it looks a lot better than something thrown together ad hoc when I suddenly need it.

Also, it may be far sooner if I get students transferring in already with a black belt. For example: my Mom and Dad.

I’m not talking about throwing something together ad hoc at the last minute. I am talking about how things tend to change and evolve in life, and over the next ten years or so you might find that this problem has taken care of itself.

As to your parents, I don’t have a solution for that. The rank you can bestow upon others is limited by the rank that you hold yourself. I don’t see a way around that, other than making your own set of rules, for better or for worse.

 

[wab25]

I disagree. I've been around the block enough, between cross-training myself, this forum, and watching a ton of different folks demonstrating techniques and principles on youtube (folks from dozens of different martial arts) that I can generally tell the difference between:

• Good technique, but different from how I do it (which I can usually find situations to apply).
• Good understanding, but poor execution due to age, injury, or disability.
• Technique that is poor, sloppy, or inconsistent.

It's also something that I would hopefully have discussions and/or training opportunities with them prior to the testing day itself so that we could figure these differences out before-hand.

The other side is the optics here. As a potential student.... if I find Instructor A, who can promote me to black belt and instructor B, who can only promote me to black belt if instructor A participates... Why would I not just go to instructor A?

I have seen too many cases where one person on the testing board, is taking a shot at or making a point to another person on the testing board, at the expense of the person actually testing.... even when those people are in the same art and the same organization. If it were me, I would eliminate that source of politics... especially when involving another art.

I am preparing one of my students for his black belt exam. We have to play a lot of politics, to get the right thing done, with the right emphasis... because the different professors that will be on the national testing board see these arts a little different... and do go after each other a little through the black belt exams. Its sad but true. And I see it in lots of organizations. Ours has actually put together a system to eliminate most of that... if the student follows it.

I was never saying that you could not see things in other arts.

 

[wab25]

You should know from my history here that this won't be an issue. In fact, I'm trying to plan for when I open my school, how I can balance starting my school, continuing to train BJJ, and maintaining my personal financial responsibilities.

This is why I was saying to do your own promotions. Your curriculum will be heavily influenced by your bjj and possibly your muay thai. But, at the start, only you will know how much, and where and why... This is why having a straight TKD or straight bjj guy ratifying your promotion may have issues.... as they are not fully up to speed with your curriculum and where you are taking it.

Have those guys come in and train your students on areas they are good at for sure. Do the cross training. But the understanding of your curriculum... no one has yet, except for you. As you begin to promote black belts, presumably they will have a good understanding of what you are teaching and can thus help with grading and further promotions. But that kind of understanding only comes with time and training.

You can do what you want.... just wanted to throw in my 2 cents... maybe thats 4 cents by now.... sorry about that.

 

[skribs123 143]

The other side is the optics here. As a potential student.... if I find Instructor A, who can promote me to black belt and instructor B, who can only promote me to black belt if instructor A participates... Why would I not just go to instructor A?

If Instructor A is further away, for example.

I don't know why some people do things the way they do. Apparently one of the brown belts at my BJJ gym his favorite grappler owns another gym in town. I don't know why, when he moved here, he joined our gym instead of that one.

 

[kyukpado]

Also, with any of these, if I could get a witness (even a 3rd-party witness in a similar art, such as another TKD style, or TSD, or a Karate style) who is sufficient rank to ratify the test, then I would use their rank as the authority instead of my own. For example, I know several people with 4th degree black belts in TKD, any one of them could sign the certificate to help me promote my Mom to 3rd degree.

Create internal policies regarding additional panel members that would be on a "quorum" based on the level of scrutiny that any individual test might receive. For example, if I were to promote my Dad to 4th degree, as a 4th degree myself and with a panel of 3rd and 4th degree black belts, I might need 3 additional members on a quorum that would need to vote unanimously to approve his promotion.

Our school is working with a group that combines these two ideas, and it seems to work pretty well. We collaborate with a group of Master and Grandmaster ranked individuals from various styles of martial arts, mostly our own (TKD) but also from other Korean, Japanese and Chinese arts. When a master-level student is ready to advance, the group would get together and test the student, providing various viewpoints on if the individual has progressed enough to advance in the individual's own system. They judge ability, precision, knowledge, and other facets of a martial artist that are common across styles, taking into account what the goals of the individual's style are. The individual tested would already have a set curriculum and general requirements, but can't test themselves, which kind of seems like where you're at or trying to be.


Now, I know you said this earlier:

I disagree. I've been around the block enough, between cross-training myself, this forum, and watching a ton of different folks demonstrating techniques and principles on youtube (folks from dozens of different martial arts) that I can generally tell the difference between:

• Good technique, but different from how I do it (which I can usually find situations to apply).
• Good understanding, but poor execution due to age, injury, or disability.
• Technique that is poor, sloppy, or inconsistent.

But I want to provide the opinion that though you can understand the bullet points above in the quote, and furthermore execute your techniques well and befitting of a martial artist ready to rank themselves up (and I honestly believe in your skill and effort, based on everything you've posted in this forum), you still must have a point of view outside yourself. Maybe you can vet/interview/work out with some other masters to create your own organization that can more specifically judge in ways you agree with, but with perspectives different to your own?

Right now I have the luxury to over-think it, so I am going to take full advantage of it.

This is awesome, I'm glad you're taking the time to think these things through well.

Good luck!

 

[skribs123 143]

Our school is working with a group that combines these two ideas, and it seems to work pretty well. We collaborate with a group of Master and Grandmaster ranked individuals from various styles of martial arts, mostly our own (TKD) but also from other Korean, Japanese and Chinese arts. When a master-level student is ready to advance, the group would get together and test the student, providing various viewpoints on if the individual has progressed enough to advance in the individual's own system. They judge ability, precision, knowledge, and other facets of a martial artist that are common across styles, taking into account what the goals of the individual's style are. The individual tested would already have a set curriculum and general requirements, but can't test themselves, which kind of seems like where you're at or trying to be.

This sounds like the kind of thing I was looking for back when I was trying to figure out how to get 4th degree, and honestly would still be very interested in. Can you provide me more information on this group? If you're not comfortable discussing it in the public forum, feel free to private message me the details.

Are they mostly in the same area? How did you get folks to agree to this?

I very much like when folks take the approach of Sensei Seth or similar artists who seek other martial arts to collaborate and grow together, and it sounds like this is what you have.

But I want to provide the opinion that though you can understand the bullet points above in the quote, and furthermore execute your techniques well and befitting of a martial artist ready to rank themselves up (and I honestly believe in your skill and effort, based on everything you've posted in this forum), you still must have a point of view outside yourself. Maybe you can vet/interview/work out with some other masters to create your own organization that can more specifically judge in ways you agree with, but with perspectives different to your own?

This is the idea. There needs to be someone outside of me who verifies it. And if that someone outside of me is going to be someone in my system, then I would need to be careful how I approach it.

Here's the rules I've come up with for now.

• The proctor can promote to a degree below theirs. For me right now, this means I could promote to 3rd without any additional help.
• A witness can be used in a case where the proctor either is too low rank or there is a conflict of interest (i.e. if I were to promote my Mom). This witness must be at least 1 degree higher than the target rank being tested for.
• If a witness would be required but a suitable witness is unavailable, then a quorum is required. +1 signature is required for each of the following:
  • +1 if the proctor is the same rank as the target rank for testing. For example, if I were to promote someone to 4th.
    • +2 if the proctor is the same rank as the person testing. For example, if I were to promote someone from 4th to 5th.
  • +1 if any quorum member is a rank below the proctor (unless the only reason for quorum is conflict of interest).
  • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between the proctor and the individual testing.
    • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between any quorum member and the individual testing.
• For every quorum member, add +1 year to time-in-grade requirements. If a quorum is used, then time-in-grade requirements MUST start from when the individual joined my school (or, for me, when I officially open the school).

What this would mean is that in order for me to get to 5th degree black belt, I cannot simply promote someone to 4th and then have them promote me to 5th or something similar, which would create a very easy quid-pro-quo. Instead, it would require me to promote four people to 3rd, then use two of them as quorum members to help me promote another to 4th, and then have them as a quorum promote me to 5th. Or get three people to 4th to promote me as a quorum. Additionally, with an additional 2-3 members of the quorum (not including the proctor), it would be a minimum time-in-grade for me of 6-7 years instead of the normal minimum of 4 for 4th degree. Although probably longer unless I have a lot of transfer students.

I think folks would look very differently at it if I were promoted by a panel of 3-4 people after several years, instead of just as soon as I get one person up he turns around and promotes me back. One thing in cybersecurity (or general fraud prevention) is that the more individuals required to create a conspiracy for corruption, the less likely corruption happens. This would help with optics in that regard.

 

[kyukpado]

This sounds like the kind of thing I was looking for back when I was trying to figure out how to get 4th degree, and honestly would still be very interested in. Can you provide me more information on this group? If you're not comfortable discussing it in the public forum, feel free to private message me the details.

PM'd.

Here's the rules I've come up with for now.

• The proctor can promote to a degree below theirs. For me right now, this means I could promote to 3rd without any additional help.
• A witness can be used in a case where the proctor either is too low rank or there is a conflict of interest (i.e. if I were to promote my Mom). This witness must be at least 1 degree higher than the target rank being tested for.
• If a witness would be required but a suitable witness is unavailable, then a quorum is required. +1 signature is required for each of the following:
  • +1 if the proctor is the same rank as the target rank for testing. For example, if I were to promote someone to 4th.
    • +2 if the proctor is the same rank as the person testing. For example, if I were to promote someone from 4th to 5th.
  • +1 if any quorum member is a rank below the proctor (unless the only reason for quorum is conflict of interest).
  • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between the proctor and the individual testing.
    • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between any quorum member and the individual testing.
• For every quorum member, add +1 year to time-in-grade requirements. If a quorum is used, then time-in-grade requirements MUST start from when the individual joined my school (or, for me, when I officially open the school).

I like the detail here. Knee-jerk reaction though: I feel like you can't rank up anyone beyond yourself, full stop. Example being, any number of 5th degrees cannot promote one to 6th degree. A group of 5th degrees may be able to create an incredibly diverse base of 5th degree knowledge, but it would not make it 6th degree knowledge. Yes, I know the comparison is a bit rough lol. Insert 80s B-reel kung fu movie quote here.

I find the time requirement very interesting. Could be too arbitrary, but obviously I haven't come up with a system like this, so who am I to judge.

 

[HighKick]

This sounds like the kind of thing I was looking for back when I was trying to figure out how to get 4th degree, and honestly would still be very interested in. Can you provide me more information on this group? If you're not comfortable discussing it in the public forum, feel free to private message me the details.

Are they mostly in the same area? How did you get folks to agree to this?

I very much like when folks take the approach of Sensei Seth or similar artists who seek other martial arts to collaborate and grow together, and it sounds like this is what you have.

This is the idea. There needs to be someone outside of me who verifies it. And if that someone outside of me is going to be someone in my system, then I would need to be careful how I approach it.

Here's the rules I've come up with for now.

• The proctor can promote to a degree below theirs. For me right now, this means I could promote to 3rd without any additional help.
• A witness can be used in a case where the proctor either is too low rank or there is a conflict of interest (i.e. if I were to promote my Mom). This witness must be at least 1 degree higher than the target rank being tested for.
• If a witness would be required but a suitable witness is unavailable, then a quorum is required. +1 signature is required for each of the following:
  • +1 if the proctor is the same rank as the target rank for testing. For example, if I were to promote someone to 4th.
    • +2 if the proctor is the same rank as the person testing. For example, if I were to promote someone from 4th to 5th.
  • +1 if any quorum member is a rank below the proctor (unless the only reason for quorum is conflict of interest).
  • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between the proctor and the individual testing.
    • +1 if a conflict of interest exists between any quorum member and the individual testing.
• For every quorum member, add +1 year to time-in-grade requirements. If a quorum is used, then time-in-grade requirements MUST start from when the individual joined my school (or, for me, when I officially open the school).

What this would mean is that in order for me to get to 5th degree black belt, I cannot simply promote someone to 4th and then have them promote me to 5th or something similar, which would create a very easy quid-pro-quo. Instead, it would require me to promote four people to 3rd, then use two of them as quorum members to help me promote another to 4th, and then have them as a quorum promote me to 5th. Or get three people to 4th to promote me as a quorum. Additionally, with an additional 2-3 members of the quorum (not including the proctor), it would be a minimum time-in-grade for me of 6-7 years instead of the normal minimum of 4 for 4th degree. Although probably longer unless I have a lot of transfer students.

I think folks would look very differently at it if I were promoted by a panel of 3-4 people after several years, instead of just as soon as I get one person up he turns around and promotes me back. One thing in cybersecurity (or general fraud prevention) is that the more individuals required to create a conspiracy for corruption, the less likely corruption happens. This would help with optics in that regard.

AKA, a self-created, self-indulging pyramid scheme.
Respectfully, this is a very, very bad idea. If you want to get input/opinion for trusted lower rank ADULT students, especially ones who have a lot of training but never chased a belt, that is okay, but a lower rank should Never promote a higher rank, in any kind of metric or dynamic. Hard stop.
Not the mention the time and effort for you to get to the point that the pyramid would 'work' you could have already put in the training time for your next belt. Then, to get to the next pyramid milestone, you would be ready to test again (assuming you are getting quality training yourself).

 

[skribs123 143]

Not the mention the time and effort for you to get to the point that the pyramid would 'work' you could have already put in the training time for your next belt. Then, to get to the next pyramid milestone, you would be ready to test again (assuming you are getting quality training yourself).

That's the thing. My current training is coming from other martial arts. My training in TKD is coming from myself. However, most of my experience as a black belt has not been learning new things, but rather memorizing new orders of things.

For example, in the color belts we have 8 kick combinations that must be memorized for testing. In 1st degree, we have 7 new combinations. Of those new combinations, there's a total of 2 new kicks or concepts that we haven't done before.

• #9 is just #8 plus a kick from #6
• #10 is an actually new concept
• #11 is just #6 re-ordered
• #12 is just a combination of kicks from kick #6 and jump kick #1
• #13 actually has a new kick, but it's a variation of #8
• #14 is just a re-order of jump kick #4
• #15 is a combination of kicks from kick #1 and jump kick #6

The same thing happens for 2nd degree and 3rd degree. There's very little that's actually new in the curriculum. And even that which is new, I may not have done it as a formal part of the curriculum, but I've done it before in some drill or exercise. In fact, out of kicks #9-25, there was only one kick that actually taught me something when it came up in the curriculum, and that was kick #24.

But, you know, I proved at each level that I could memorize more.

Personally, I haven't really seen anything to suggest that there is much more material to learn past black belt. At least not in an official capacity from Kukkiwon. And the Masters I've trained under haven't given much guidance to the upper belts. In fact, at my old school, most of the time I'd be shown something once, and then my "training" was to teach the other 3rd degree black belts that stuff while my Master taught the 1st and 2nd degree black belts their requirements.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen at other schools. I'm not saying there isn't any more to learn. However, the way it's been handled in the schools I've been, there isn't.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

1. I want to promote a student from 3rd degree to 4th degree (as a 4th degree).
2. I want to promote a student from 4th degree to 5th degree (as a 4th degree).

Had a similar situation about whether there were questions about nepotism when my son tested and I was on the test board or even the Senior member of the board.
The solution was simple:
1. Although I was on the board I was not the one doing his grading - There were at least 2 others on the Board who did that; and
2. If there was any doubt in the mind of any board member or in fact anyone who observed the test, he would not pass.

 

[skribs123 143]

AKA, a self-created, self-indulging pyramid scheme.
Respectfully, this is a very, very bad idea. If you want to get input/opinion for trusted lower rank ADULT students, especially ones who have a lot of training but never chased a belt, that is okay, but a lower rank should Never promote a higher rank, in any kind of metric or dynamic. Hard stop.

This is what was brought up in this thread:

J

Thread 'Can we promote our GrandMaster ?'

Jun 23, 2024

Hello everyone, I have an interesting question I dont think I've seen before. My current instructor is an 8th Dan in Tang Soo do. He's been in martial arts since 1965 (59 years). His instructor is no longer alive. It's been 10 years since he was last promoted. I'm a current 6th Dan. One of the other 5th Dan's (previously at our school but now pursuing nationally ranked breaking) was part of a ceremony where their 9th degree instructor was promoted by his students to 10th degree (his Grand Master had long since passed away as well). I'm now being approached to see if I would support our...

• Jeff Webb
• grandmaster promotion
• Replies: 31
• Forum: Korean Martial Arts - General

The only difference is they're all a few degrees higher than me. You seemed more open to the idea in that thread, and you were one of the most negative in that thread. Pretty much everyone else was positive on the idea, even pointing out historical situations in which those without any other options had to come up with something to get to that level.

 

[HighKick]

This is what was brought up in this thread:

J

Thread 'Can we promote our GrandMaster ?'

Jun 23, 2024

Hello everyone, I have an interesting question I dont think I've seen before. My current instructor is an 8th Dan in Tang Soo do. He's been in martial arts since 1965 (59 years). His instructor is no longer alive. It's been 10 years since he was last promoted. I'm a current 6th Dan. One of the other 5th Dan's (previously at our school but now pursuing nationally ranked breaking) was part of a ceremony where their 9th degree instructor was promoted by his students to 10th degree (his Grand Master had long since passed away as well). I'm now being approached to see if I would support our...

• Jeff Webb
• grandmaster promotion
• Replies: 31
• Forum: Korean Martial Arts - General

The only difference is they're all a few degrees higher than me. You seemed more open to the idea in that thread, and you were one of the most negative in that thread. Pretty much everyone else was positive on the idea, even pointing out historical situations in which those without any other options had to come up with something to get to that level.

I do remember the thread and my comments. Rather surprised you do.
As you said, the conditions are very different in the above situation. I could see a way through it if a number of conditions were met, there was a very healthy quorum within the school(s) (preferably the system outside the school) and if there just wasn't any other option (which raises it own questions). The biggest question by far at that high a rank is what has he/she done to grown the art.

Historically, there was more necessity back in the day since there just were not many high Dans.

Honestly, if the school body or system is small/young enough that there are no other options to aid in promotion, awarding a high Dan belt to a 59-year old long time instructor by 6th Dan students may not bother me, but I am purely spit-balling since I know nothing about the situation.

Very different from your 'pre-planned' way to self-promote.