Unaffiliated Promotion Governance

I believe you're also probably a lot higher ranked than MadMartigan is (I could be mistaken, but I believe you are pretty high up there and he isn't as high up there), so that would make you a better destination than him for someone seeking to continue their progression. No offense to him, it's the same as if I were to open a KKW school and folks were to choose the other KKW school in the next town over because the owner is an 8th degree.
Rank, and perhaps reputation may get them in the door, but they only stick around if realities meet the expectation. FWIW I have had no official ITF association since 2010 and that is one of the first things I advise people who find me looking for an "ITF School" . If they are looking for ITF rank, or other organizational rank advancement I help them make the appropriate connection but are welcome to train with me.
 
Rank, and perhaps reputation may get them in the door, but they only stick around if realities meet the expectation. FWIW I have had no official ITF association since 2010 and that is one of the first things I advise people who find me looking for an "ITF School" . If they are looking for ITF rank, or other organizational rank advancement I help them make the appropriate connection but are welcome to train with me.
I didn't know that. Do you have another affiliation, or are you unaffiliated now?
 
I didn't know that. Do you have another affiliation, or are you unaffiliated now?
Briefly.
I was a member of the ITF and the USTF starting in 1974 (Which was when the USTF was formed) which was the official USA Body for the ITF until shortly after General Choi's death in 2022. Following General Choi's death the ITF Split and the USTF withdrew it's affiliation but I remained a member of the Main ITF group (As opposed to the Son's group and the NK Group) as well as a USTF member until 2010 when that ITF told me I could no longer be a member of that group and the USTF . So, I left the ITF. I remained with the USTF until last month when I resigned. I had been to some ITF Union events and after some investigation elected to align with that group.
 
Briefly.
I was a member of the ITF and the USTF starting in 1974 (Which was when the USTF was formed) which was the official USA Body for the ITF until shortly after General Choi's death in 2022. Following General Choi's death the ITF Split and the USTF withdrew it's affiliation but I remained a member of the Main ITF group (As opposed to the Son's group and the NK Group) as well as a USTF member until 2010 when that ITF told me I could no longer be a member of that group and the USTF . So, I left the ITF. I remained with the USTF until last month when I resigned. I had been to some ITF Union events and after some investigation elected to align with that group.
Growing up in the church, one thing I heard was, "The biggest thing that keeps people from Christ is Christians." Basically that when Christians go holier-than-thou on people they're trying to witness to, or preach fire-and-brimstone and then prove themselves to be massive hypocrites, it tends to turn people away.

I think the same is somewhat true for TKD. I love TKD. But there are so many egos involved, so much organizational politics at the higher levels. Like in your case, where you're forced to pick between one group or the other.
 
Growing up in the church, one thing I heard was, "The biggest thing that keeps people from Christ is Christians." Basically that when Christians go holier-than-thou on people they're trying to witness to, or preach fire-and-brimstone and then prove themselves to be massive hypocrites, it tends to turn people away.

I think the same is somewhat true for TKD. I love TKD. But there are so many egos involved, so much organizational politics at the higher levels. Like in your case, where you're forced to pick between one group or the other.
I am not sure that is analogous.
 
I've heard that a 4.dan can only grade up to 1.cup, and a 6.dan can grade from 1.dan to 3.dan.

Now I'm confused, am I mistaken?
 
Yes, unless the specific school/system has their own rules.
Unless it's changed, that's incorrect, at least as far as Kukkiwon is concerned. This is what I found on a few websites, including one post from our very own Andy Jeffries: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

In order to promote to 1st or 2nd degree in Kukkiwon, you need to be 4th degree and hold a "3rd Class Examiner" certification. (This is essentially Kukkiwon's Master's license). In order to promote to 3rd, you must also be on a national panel.

There's additional requirements when you go up in degree. Although it seems somewhat sporadic whether there's 1- or 2-degree difference between who you can promote. You also must be qualified as a 2nd class or 1st class examiner.

Of course, this is one of the reasons I really don't like Kukkiwon. Maybe the information is easier to find if you're on their Korean site, but every piece of information I can find regarding their internal rules and policies is from forums and affiliated websites and almost always carries some inaccuracies, or has missing or outdated information.
 
Unless it's changed, that's incorrect, at least as far as Kukkiwon is concerned. This is what I found on a few websites, including one post from our very own Andy Jeffries: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

In order to promote to 1st or 2nd degree in Kukkiwon, you need to be 4th degree and hold a "3rd Class Examiner" certification. (This is essentially Kukkiwon's Master's license). In order to promote to 3rd, you must also be on a national panel.

There's additional requirements when you go up in degree. Although it seems somewhat sporadic whether there's 1- or 2-degree difference between who you can promote. You also must be qualified as a 2nd class or 1st class examiner.

Of course, this is one of the reasons I really don't like Kukkiwon. Maybe the information is easier to find if you're on their Korean site, but every piece of information I can find regarding their internal rules and policies is from forums and affiliated websites and almost always carries some inaccuracies, or has missing or outdated information.
Alas, the effects of 30+ years of rampant, out of control growth, little to no regulation and the status quo Korean political hierarchy competition. It led to decades of really, really Bad black belts being promoted. In NO way do I mean to infer TKD is bad. The extremely loose WT/KKW model (mostly KKW) was never solidified due to never-ending pissing contests and a Whole lot of ego. WT caught a huge spark and carried the whole thing for a very long time. Somewhere along the way they (WT/KKW) discovered what MLM is and they are leveraging the model with all the 'necessary' qualifications. 100% play-to-play.
Is it explicitly wrong? No. It will take over-reach to have any chance at righting the ship. What they do not seem to grasp is how far behind they are and how much pressure/competition they are getting from other styles. And all the 'levels' the money grab is the last, best attempt to get fat before the bubble burst.

Face it, TKD was king of the hill for a long time, but I do think they will be de-throned sooner rather than later. This comes for a guy who is about as vested in TKD as you can get.

More to your post, what you said would relate to KKW TKD only and the post is about unaffiliated TKD. Plus, I 1000% guarantee you there are 1st Dan KKW black belts out there promoting.
 
More to your post, what you said would relate to KKW TKD only and the post is about unaffiliated TKD. Plus, I 1000% guarantee you there are 1st Dan KKW black belts out there promoting.
I was responding to when you said this:

"
Yes, unless the specific school/system has their own rules.
"

Which means you're talking about a generalization across TKD. If we're generalizing across TKD, then KKW is as good a place as any to start.

Face it, TKD was king of the hill for a long time, but I do think they will be de-throned sooner rather than later. This comes for a guy who is about as vested in TKD as you can get.
I don't know. I'm 50/50. I've personally been focusing on BJJ for the last 3+ years. There's definitely a lot that I've learned, and it's influenced how I want to teach. However, I think Taekwondo has more mass appeal.

Does BJJ have better PR when it comes to the efficacy of the art? Absolutely. But I think the number of people who want to kick pads is a lot higher than the number of people who want to be in as intense and intimate a situation as jiu-jitsu. Taekwondo is also much better for those with injuries that would be affected by the positions and pressures in jiu-jitsu, but can easily modify the way they do techniques in TKD.

I think TKD, TSD, and Karate tend to find the right balance of intensity for most people where they feel they're getting something effective, but aren't pushed too far out of their comfort zone that they're likely to continue training. Of those arts, I think TKD has the biggest chance to continue to succeed, simply due to the number of people trained in it that can keep the legacy going.
 
................. The extremely loose WT/KKW model (mostly KKW)
The genius of General Choi was a style with strict parameters. This also alienated many. The Genius of the KKW / WT model was to welcome any number of systems under it's umbrella which created a mess perhaps taking the long view to later create stricter standards.
 
I've heard that a 4.dan can only grade up to 1.cup, and a 6.dan can grade from 1.dan to 3.dan.

Now I'm confused, am I mistaken?
You are mistaken. But you're also not. There are hundreds of organizations out there, and all have their own rules. In our MDK system, Dan ranks can promote to one level below the instructors rank.
 
The genius of General Choi was a style with strict parameters. This also alienated many. The Genius of the KKW / WT model was to welcome any number of systems under it's umbrella which created a mess perhaps taking the long view to later create stricter standards.
Honestly, I do not feel like any real attempt at standard have been made until recently. And the method is one huge money grab. Still rather easy to get to 1st - 2nd or 3rd Dan, then the money grab begins shortly after. It is easy to see where the years spent in flux can feel wasted.
 
I was responding to when you said this:

"
Yes, unless the specific school/system has their own rules.
"

Which means you're talking about a generalization across TKD. If we're generalizing across TKD, then KKW is as good a place as any to start.


I don't know. I'm 50/50. I've personally been focusing on BJJ for the last 3+ years. There's definitely a lot that I've learned, and it's influenced how I want to teach. However, I think Taekwondo has more mass appeal.

Does BJJ have better PR when it comes to the efficacy of the art? Absolutely. But I think the number of people who want to kick pads is a lot higher than the number of people who want to be in as intense and intimate a situation as jiu-jitsu. Taekwondo is also much better for those with injuries that would be affected by the positions and pressures in jiu-jitsu, but can easily modify the way they do techniques in TKD.

I think TKD, TSD, and Karate tend to find the right balance of intensity for most people where they feel they're getting something effective, but aren't pushed too far out of their comfort zone that they're likely to continue training. Of those arts, I think TKD has the biggest chance to continue to succeed, simply due to the number of people trained in it that can keep the legacy going.
But you are corralling you school and teaching to one general group. Yes, from a profit and sustainability standpoint this model is very important. But it can sure make for some bland, vanilla training.
This is (of course) our largest group, which consist of kids and the average working/schooling student, but we have classes for those who want more and competition specific classes. It varies based on how big a sample you take but it is fairly close to 50/50.
 
I do get the jist of what some of the naysayers in this thread have been saying.

If it does become an inevitability in order to promote students, then it's something that might be best done ad hoc. I wanted to avoid that, because having governance in place is a good way to avoid conflicts of interest (this is coming from my day job in cybersecurity, especially where I most recently worked for a quasi-governmental financial organization). However, in doing so, I create a system where it's expected and does create it's own conflict.

I think for now I'll keep these ideas in the back of my head, but not written down in any of my school's official documentation.
 
I do get the jist of what some of the naysayers in this thread have been saying.

If it does become an inevitability in order to promote students, then it's something that might be best done ad hoc. I wanted to avoid that, because having governance in place is a good way to avoid conflicts of interest (this is coming from my day job in cybersecurity, especially where I most recently worked for a quasi-governmental financial organization). However, in doing so, I create a system where it's expected and does create it's own conflict.

I think for now I'll keep these ideas in the back of my head, but not written down in any of my school's official documentation.
I now have a certificate that says "4th degree" and a placard that says "Master", both of which were given to me by someone who is a 6th degree black belt. That legitimizes me as a 4th degree Master
There is so much more to unpack in your OP but this is one of the most glaring. By NO means does having a 4th Dan certificate and placard that says "master" make you or anyone else a mater or their art. Far, far from it, and that kind of thinking tilts it in the other direction.
NOT trying to start an argument or be offensive, but man oh man, there is just way to much of this thinking out there.
 
There is so much more to unpack in your OP but this is one of the most glaring. By NO means does having a 4th Dan certificate and placard that says "master" make you or anyone else a mater or their art. Far, far from it, and that kind of thinking tilts it in the other direction.
NOT trying to start an argument or be offensive, but man oh man, there is just way to much of this thinking out there.
I think the main problem is whoever came up with the idea of using the term "master" for a lowly 4th degree black belt. In other TMA, that term commonly refers to someone with 30-40+ years in their art with a rank of 8th degree or higher (and even they are often reluctant to describe themselves as such). While an art is free to name its ranks any way they want, to be honest, I cringe when I hear that term used for one just starting their journey to the depths of their art. That's just me and no offense meant to those dedicated 4th and 5th degree practitioners who are stuck with that honorific.

Whether it was a fluke of translation or intentional "cheat" to build up commercial standing with the public, it would be enlightening to know if that term was used for 4th degree prior to 1970 when TKD started to be aggressively marketed here in the US.
 
There is so much more to unpack in your OP but this is one of the most glaring. By NO means does having a 4th Dan certificate and placard that says "master" make you or anyone else a mater or their art. Far, far from it, and that kind of thinking tilts it in the other direction.
NOT trying to start an argument or be offensive, but man oh man, there is just way to much of this thinking out there.
No, but having these given to me from someone else proves that someone with the authority to promote to those levels and titles believed I am worthy of them.

And don't worry, I don't take your opinion here as offensive. It's so much of an egregiously bad take that it's impossible to find any offense in it.
 
I think the main problem is whoever came up with the idea of using the term "master" for a lowly 4th degree black belt.

Whether it was a fluke of translation or intentional "cheat" to build up commercial standing with the public, it would be enlightening to know if that term was used for 4th degree prior to 1970 when TKD started to be aggressively marketed here in the US.
Prior to 1970 in the USA most anyone using the Tk-D moniker was an ITF affiliate or off shoot since WT did not yet exist and other Korean systems had not yet latched on to the name to capitalize on growing popularity. In fact man yof those including Tk-D often advertised as "Korean Karate" ITF always used that derivation of the Korean term (Not exact translation) for 7th and above since prior to that the entire syllabus has been learned, There is a book "Living the Martial way" where the author critiques an unnamed org for devaluing the title from 5th to 4th and questions how you can be considered a "Master " of a system when the entire system has not yet been learned as a requirement for advancement to that rank.
 
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