Punch from hip or higher?

[spinny]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I did find the following image which may help clarify. Notice that the fist is well above the belt. I found similar images associated with Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Vol. 1 book, suggesting this may indeed be a Moo Duk Kwan thing (or at least used to be).

Does anyone currently use this high fist position? Or was anyone instructed to do it in the past?

Thanks,
Chris

This is exactly how we do it at my school. The reasoning I was told is that the fist is held on the level of the solar-plexus, allowing the fist to move in a straight line out in a punch - making for a shorter, faster, more efficient strike. As opposed to holding the fist at the hip and angling upward to strike the solar plexus.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'll ad my 5 cents since no one else mentioned it. As with many things there are often tradeoffs. Certain methods may have some benefits and other methods may have other benefits.

As was mentioned the higher chamber may provide a shorter travel distance from start to finish. However, the higher chamber is less relaxed than the lower chamber. Being more relaxed will result in less fatigue over time and beingg less tense may lead to a quicker technique.

BTW does anyone else think the lead leg knee is way to forward in the illustration? Is there a reason for this?

 

[spinny]

Not sure that description made the most sense... So here's an illustration of what I was trying to say.

The fist chambered higher has a shorter distance (red arrow) to reach the target, and the fist travels straight out.
The fist chambered lower has a longer distance (blue arrow) and the trajectory angles upwards.

(Actually this image has the red arrow angling upward a bit, too. But it's not the best illustration — really it should go straight out with no upwards angle.)

 

[dancingalone]

How many of you train with makiwara? If you do, you know that the purpose of the tool is to help you learn to focus the energy of the punch straight through the hand and knuckles, so you're more likely to produce that hydrostatic shock effect all karate-ka are aiming for. My teacher would never let anyone move onto a heavy bag until they had considerably experience with the makiwara first since he felt one could develop a bad pushing habit with the heavy bag if let unchecked.

Most adults with a bit of training can produce a nice looking punch on the bag that moves it in the air. However it is with the makiwara that you really know if you can punch or not. A pushy punch on the makiwara will only make a dull thud, while a focused one with proper retraction will produce a nice loud 'thwack'.

My point is that the keys to correct punching (in karate and other 'thrust' based systems - I'm not necessarily talking about boxing's punches) such as optimal acceleration and deceleration are more important than the path in which the punch moves. Given shotokan karate's legendary punching power, I am sure the lower hip chamber punch can be very effective. That said, I believe it true that lower hip chamber has more real estate/opportunity in which form mistakes can happen, so I am inclined to eliminate the opportunity entirely if I can.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'll ad my 5 cents since no one else mentioned it. As with many things there are often tradeoffs. Certain methods may have some benefits and other methods may have other benefits.

As was mentioned the higher chamber may provide a shorter travel distance from start to finish. However, the higher chamber is less relaxed than the lower chamber. Being more relaxed will result in less fatigue over time and beingg less tense may lead to a quicker technique.

I would agree with that.

BTW does anyone else think the lead leg knee is way to forward in the illustration? Is there a reason for this?

Yes, though I just chalked it up to the artist's rendering.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

Not sure that description made the most sense... So here's an illustration of what I was trying to say.

The fist chambered higher has a shorter distance (red arrow) to reach the target, and the fist travels straight out.
The fist chambered lower has a longer distance (blue arrow) and the trajectory angles upwards.

(Actually this image has the red arrow angling upward a bit, too. But it's not the best illustration — really it should go straight out with no upwards angle.)

Small flaw in your graphic: The 'bottom' hand is chambered further back then the top hand. I think the distance is negligable because variable.

I experience a bit of a different tension in the musles trying high chamber vs lower...that might account more for a quicker delivery than the distance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not sure that description made the most sense... So here's an illustration of what I was trying to say.

The fist chambered higher has a shorter distance (red arrow) to reach the target, and the fist travels straight out.
The fist chambered lower has a longer distance (blue arrow) and the trajectory angles upwards.

(Actually this image has the red arrow angling upward a bit, too. But it's not the best illustration — really it should go straight out with no upwards angle.)

Given that the elbow is starting at the same point, I cannot see any distinct advantage to one over the other in terms of distance. The from the hip chamber being more relaxed may result in a quicker punch, but that is not related to distance.

If you are relaxed, you do not have to un-tense your muscles and then tense them again in execution (the fastest guitarists are incredibly relaxed). All things considered, if you train in either chamber for any length of time, you will be relaxed enough that speed is not going to be an issue, regardless of which chamber your style prefers.

Once the fighting starts, your chambers won't look like that anyway.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Thanks ATC. So what have you thought about the changes? Do you feel it has more power from the hip? If scores in poomsae competition and kukkiwon grading were not a factor, would you advocate one chamber over the other?

I do feel that the old school ways do have more power vs. the KKW ways. However I do see what the KKW is trying to convey as well. More relaxed and shorter distance in their movements. I know with the hand held lower it may seem like a longer distance but that is only if you look at this single move by itself, the system as a whole is what need to be looked at and understood. I see pros and cons in both. None being outright bad though.

As I was taught the explanation was to feel more ready to punch with the hand higher. If you simply place your hand at belt level or even on the hip bone, vs. high mid rib level and as far back as you can you will feel the difference. I will leave which feels more ready to strike up to you. My GM was really fond of how something felt. He always speaks about the mind and it's readiness and awareness, and felt that the body helped the mind by how something felt.

My Sabumnim now also talks about these feeling also but to a lesser extent.

 

[Touch Of Death]

For what my opinion is worth I would advocate the higher chamber. The path of the punch is still off the hip; so, a higher chamber simply means you are tightening the weapon sooner. I think its a good habbit to get into. Its makes you just that much faster.
Sean

 

[seasoned]

Early on my instructor would say that where your hands are in the push-up position or the bench press position is where the chamber should be. Shoulders down, elbows down, chamber up near the pectoral muscle. From an Okinawan GoJu perspective, it seems to work for me. As was mentioned in earlier posts, there are other self defense ramifications to consider when discussing the chamber, whether punching or drawing back.

 

[dancingalone]

For what my opinion is worth I would advocate the higher chamber. The path of the punch is still off the hip; so, a higher chamber simply means you are tightening the weapon sooner. I think its a good habbit to get into. Its makes you just that much faster.
Sean

If anyone has been following the NFL draft talk, there's definitely a preference for the QB's having a tight motion. Letting the ball dip before cocking it is a no-no, and Tim Tebow from Florida has been working on his throwing motion to change this exact problem.

Parallels to ma? Maybe so.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I also train in a school with Moo Duk Kwan roots. We're technically WTF, but train with Poomse Palgwe, and although there are some students who compete in WTF tounaments, we do not sparr by the WTF ruleset within the dojang. We use standards that are much closer to open Karate tournies or ITF tournies.

During forms, the hand is chambered on the hip. Forms, while intended as choreographed fights, also involve slightly exagerated motions, and I think this is partly why the hand is chambered on the hip. Too, it's a very easy place for beginners to locate. Much easier than telling them to place it at the level of the 6th rib.

During sparring, the chamber is higher. As I throw a jab or backfist with the leading hand, the trailing hand is drawn back and down to chamber, but only to about the level of the 6th or 7th rib. On the other hand, if I lead off with, say,a front leg snap kick, the trailing hand may well chamber to the hip (for more power) simply because the leading hand is still defensive, and therefore the deeper chamber does not leave me excessively open.

 

[ATC]

I also train in a school with Moo Duk Kwan roots. We're technically WTF, but train with Poomse Palgwe, and although there are some students who compete in WTF tounaments, we do not sparr by the WTF ruleset within the dojang. We use standards that are much closer to open Karate tournies or ITF tournies.

During forms, the hand is chambered on the hip. Forms, while intended as choreographed fights, also involve slightly exagerated motions, and I think this is partly why the hand is chambered on the hip. Too, it's a very easy place for beginners to locate. Much easier than telling them to place it at the level of the 6th rib.

During sparring, the chamber is higher. As I throw a jab or backfist with the leading hand, the trailing hand is drawn back and down to chamber, but only to about the level of the 6th or 7th rib. On the other hand, if I lead off with, say,a front leg snap kick, the trailing hand may well chamber to the hip (for more power) simply because the leading hand is still defensive, and therefore the deeper chamber does not leave me excessively open.

Now we are getting into the systems as a whole. And as clearly stated the fist postion from the chamber is relative to factors such as defensive/offensive positions.

KKW will teach to always chamber from the hip, but a more older style will vary the chamber depending. This is where feel comes into play. I do know that I still will most time start my fist at hip level but will cock into a high chamber position right before the punch, regardless of where my hand started.

Now what that said KKW will make sence to just deliver the punch from the position of rest. Why waist time re-cocking an already chambered fist. Higher chamber = a slight increase in power but here is where KKW feels that there is a speed advantage with delivering the strike from the hip where the hand is already at rest. Many times you need to raise the hand for the high chamber.

So which is faster. Slighty lower point of origin (minimal added distance), or Slighty higher point of origin (minimal cut in distance)? Knowing all the factors of the system I would say that the KKW way is faster even though you have increased the distance. KKW has cut out added movement thus increasing speed. However they have also cut some power, however minimal.

This is the same thing that has taken place with the kicking of the WTF (KKW) style vs. the ITF style. Removed movement for added speed.

 

[Cirdan]

The knee in the picture is bent slightly foreward so you can put your rooting correctly, roughly under the middle of your front foot instead of the heel. That way only the weight of your back leg will be on the back foot, allowing you to take the next step quicker without having to change your balance first. Done correctly it also reduces the strain on your knees.

Besides an elbow strike to the rear, the hikite is also a pull/unbalancing move. And a lot of other things

 

[Earl Weiss]

The knee in the picture is bent slightly foreward so you can put your rooting correctly, roughly under the middle of your front foot instead of the heel. That way only the weight of your back leg will be on the back foot, allowing you to take the next step quicker without having to change your balance first. Done correctly it also reduces the strain on your knees.

1. I am not so sure having your front knee this far forward reduces the strain on this knee. It would seem the least knee strain would result from a 50/50 weight distribution.)
2. Faster step with the rear foot- probably. What about the effect this position has on the lead leg ability to do a front kick?

 

[Cirdan]

1. I am not so sure having your front knee this far forward reduces the strain on this knee. It would seem the least knee strain would result from a 50/50 weight distribution.)
2. Faster step with the rear foot- probably. What about the effect this position has on the lead leg ability to do a front kick?

1: Maybe, however wouldn`t 50/50 be better in a different stance? I know well trained people who use 50/50 but not like in the picture.

2: Snap kick. Highly functional, almost your entire body is in position for it already.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I did find the following image which may help clarify. Notice that the fist is well above the belt. I found similar images associated with Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Vol. 1 book, suggesting this may indeed be a Moo Duk Kwan thing (or at least used to be).

Does anyone currently use this high fist position? Or was anyone instructed to do it in the past?

Thanks,
Chris

For the first 10 or so years I was practicing, we were taught this high chamber position. Then our Kwan Jang Nim "clarified" (aka changed it without calling it a "change") that it should be chambered at the belt line instead of the higher chamber position. It took a long time for my muscle memory to change, and I still find myself 14 years later, still chambering high in some movements. I personally like the high chamber, but it probably just because that is what I had learned first.

 

[spinny]

Now we are getting into the systems as a whole. And as clearly stated the fist postion from the chamber is relative to factors such as defensive/offensive positions.

KKW will teach to always chamber from the hip, but a more older style will vary the chamber depending. This is where feel comes into play. I do know that I still will most time start my fist at hip level but will cock into a high chamber position right before the punch, regardless of where my hand started.

Now what that said KKW will make sence to just deliver the punch from the position of rest. Why waist time re-cocking an already chambered fist. Higher chamber = a slight increase in power but here is where KKW feels that there is a speed advantage with delivering the strike from the hip where the hand is already at rest. Many times you need to raise the hand for the high chamber.

So which is faster. Slighty lower point of origin (minimal added distance), or Slighty higher point of origin (minimal cut in distance)? Knowing all the factors of the system I would say that the KKW way is faster even though you have increased the distance. KKW has cut out added movement thus increasing speed. However they have also cut some power, however minimal.

This is the same thing that has taken place with the kicking of the WTF (KKW) style vs. the ITF style. Removed movement for added speed.

I think I understand what you're getting at, and I agree that it would take more time to raise your fist from your waist to your rib before punching. But it would not take longer if your fist was already chambered at the rib, never dropping to the waist. I don't feel at all unrelaxed doing this, but it is how I learned and what my muscles are used to.

Actually, when we learned we needed to tweak some things to be in line with the Kukkiwon — the fist chamber is one of the details I struggled with the most. Holding my fist that low just makes me feel, I dunno, lazy? too relaxed?


I'll concede that the distance to the target is perhaps negligible. I guess no one thinks that 2-3 inches will make that much difference... But what about the trajectory? What are the positives/negatives of "straight on" vs "slight-angle-upward"?

I feel that "straight on" has the advantage from a body mechanics perspective since it ought to lend more strength and stability.
I think the "slight-angle-upward" would risk breaking the line from knuckle to wrist to elbow.

(BTW — very interesting to hear how different schools teach such a basic skill and the reasoning behind the technique. )

 

[Earl Weiss]

2: Snap kick. Highly functional, almost your entire body is in position for it already.

FWIW IMNSHO the illustration shows a lot more weight on the front foot with the front of the knee almost as far forward as the tip of the toes. From this position a lead leg front snap kick would require a major rearword weight shift before it could be done.



Much less is needed if the weight distribution is 50/50 and the kneecap is in line with the heels. Perhaps this system does not advocate a lead leg front snap kick from this posture.

 

[granfire]

the stance in the illustration carries about 70% of the weight on the front foot. That does not lend itself to front leg kicks, snapped or otherwise.

I don't think the stance sees much action outside of forms and technique practice.