Evolution of TKD

[Miles]

There are several interesting discussions going on re: "Disappearing History" as well as the "Chung Do Kwan and the Kukkiwon."

I think an interesting study could be made here on MT as to the "Evolution" of TKD, especially from those who study under a Shotokan-based Kwan.

What I am interested in is seeing how a student of the WTA under GM Son, Duk Song might perform a technique, poomsae, or even run a class.

Now compare that to a different CDK-based non-KKW oriented such as DarkPhoenix might do the same technique, poomsae, or run a class.

Now compare that to an early Jhoon Rhee, Texas-Karate based student and their experiences.

Now compare that to Exile and his Song Moo Kwan, non-KKW oriented class.

Now compare that to a TSD practitioner and his/her technique, poomsae, class structure.

These students will have a foundationally similar root, but I'd like to see how their practice has evolved away from or toward each other's practice.


Ideally this will require video-if you have some or can furnish a link to demonstrate, it would be appreciated.

 

[terryl965]

So what is first, teaching, if so what techs are we doing. I say lets start with the basic roundhouse kick and how we all throw it!

 

[CDKJudoka]

Roundhouse Kick:

For forms, drills, and technique, we chamber the leg up and down, pivot 170 degrees on the supporting leg, pivot the hip and snap the leg. The chamber before striking is then parallel to the floor.

For sparring and self-defence we don't chamber as high. It looks very much like a Muay Thai roundhouse, with the TKD hip and foot pivot. I will try to get Video tonight at the dojang.

EDIT: I should add that we are taught to strike with the with the instep, but we are also taught to strike with the ball of the foot as well.

 

[dancingalone]

Now compare that to an early Jhoon Rhee, Texas-Karate based student and their experiences.

That's me. I got my TKD BB in the eighties. The roundhouse kick was called the 'round kick' and we learned the quick, snappy sport version which I have moved away from as my learning matured into other arts.

Chamber your leg into the horizontal position and pivot your supporting foot so that the heel faces towards your target. Your kicking leg should be turned completely sideways and your knee pointed directly at the target. Pull your toes down and form a striking surface with the instep. Kick. Ideally you're going to try to use as much of your hips and leg muscles as possible to maximize power, but in actual practice I noticed most people had weak technique since they only used their calf muscles to power the roundhouse.

 

[Twin Fist]

same for me

wait, same for me, same area (Tx) same time from (80's)

who were you under?

 

[Jimi]

I have never used the calf muscle to power my TSD/TKD Round Kick. I used my Quad. I have seen that most TKD Round Kicks Pivot to align with the target & usually does not rotate beyond this alignment like a Muay Thai Round Kick that usually cranks thru. The only time I have seen a TSD/TKD Round Kick rotate thru is when it is a jumping or spinning (360,540 Etc...) Round Kick. Jhoon Rhee forms were Hyungs that I saw in the late 70's early 80's. Then the term Poomse came around. Palgue's & Tae Geuk's then were the seperation of TKD Assoc's and even those were modfied for open competition by more tourney savy commercial schools. Korean Arts are Damn strong depending on the Instructor & their training or upbrining in the arts. You have to admitt that some TKD school are kids karate day camp. Not attacking anyone, just voicing my opinion. PEACE-

 

[dancingalone]

same for me

wait, same for me, same area (Tx) same time from (80's)

who were you under?

Not sure if he's still teaching or not, but I studied in one of Nelson Harvey's schools.

 

[Miles]

So we have DP's vertical chamber and Dancingalone's horizontal chamber-both members are of CDK lineage. It would be interesting to learn whether either method (or another) was the original manner for performing roundhouse kick.

Anyone from the World TKD Assoc under GM Son care to post?

 

[Miles]

I have never used the calf muscle to power my TSD/TKD Round Kick. I used my Quad. I have seen that most TKD Round Kicks Pivot to align with the target & usually does not rotate beyond this alignment like a Muay Thai Round Kick that usually cranks thru. The only time I have seen a TSD/TKD Round Kick rotate thru is when it is a jumping or spinning (360,540 Etc...) Round Kick.

This might be a different aspect of the roundhouse kick which we could examine-point of contact and termination. In other words, does your knee stop at the target or pass the target at termination? Is your knee bent at point of contact?

 

[CDKJudoka]

So we have DP's vertical chamber and Dancingalone's horizontal chamber-both members are of CDK lineage. It would be interesting to learn whether either method (or another) was the original manner for performing roundhouse kick.

Anyone from the World TKD Assoc under GM Son care to post?

I know our chamber looks identical to a shotokan roundhouse chamber. We snap the kick from the horizontal plane, but start vertical. Main reason for that being most of our roundhouse kicks are thrown from a fake front kick.

 

[bluekey88]

We do a vertical chamber. We bring the knee just past the target for greater penetration and try to time the opening of the chamber with the opening/rotation of our hips. Upper body counter roation can be used to more quickly return the kick back to chamber.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Jimi]

I was taught that for sparring in tournaments or just a class scrimmage, we were to align with the target for a near straight line of extension. This keeps the kick quick & allows for the power to more easily controlled to keep the sparring as honorable combat so to speak & keep the the exchange of power (Ego driven) shots from getting out of hand. Point sparring kicks were to be just for tag to get a point so the absence of penetration is understandable. I was also taught that for speed & non-telegraphic application we would chamber our round kick up like a front kick & turn it over thru-out delivery. This gets you in there faster & less-seen although it smothers the power some, usually just quad & almost no hip rotation for body weight power. I also was taught that a (What my 1st Instructor called) Traditional round kick chambers up over to horz then with support foot pivot & quad you lauch a power (Usually rear leg) round kick striking thru. Such a power pivot sometimes would lead to a call of excessive force when you cause your opponent to bark like scooby doo. LOL. I rarely saw someone in TSD/TKD point sparring throw their hip so deeply into the pivot that it looked like the penetration of a full power Muay Thai round kick. I have seen such over rotation in Olympic style sparring cause they tag near full contact & are judged on impact as well as target touching/tagging. A visible impact is a good score wether or not the hip rotates thru the target. My 1st Instructor also worked us to train power kicks for self defense, this involved a pivot & extension beyond the usual round kick alignment for sport. I knew the differnce between a power kick for self defense & a speed tag kick for point competition. To address your question MILES, If my knee was bent more than slightly at the point of contact in sparring then I was being mean & trying to hurt someone, also If my knee was barely in alignment at the point of contact with my target for street self defense I was not hitting hard enough & being way to nice. I realized back in 1983 that there was a great differnce between sparring power & fighting for your life power. My 1st Instructor invited students of another Instuctor friend of his who taught Burmese (Bando) Bama Lethwei & Muay Thai to come to club and spar. These guys kicked like mules. LOL. I guess someones perspective on this will vary on wether in point sparring you should kick with enogh umph to have rotated your hips all the way thru enough to leave your kicking leg bent as you land the round kick. I my opinion it is a full power kick meant to punish not just score. A lead leg snapping round kick for a point is not a fully committed kick, but a rear leg jump 360 round kick is a fully committed kick & controling its penetration in point sparing is far more risky than the latter. I hope this make my opinion clear. The round kick can be lauched with many slight variations on penetration, chamber & snap relative to point or full contact intent. I guess I should have added this qualifier to my previous statement about only seeing a TSD/TKD round kick rotating thru is during spinning 360, 540's , I have only seen that rotation when a TSD/TKDer is trying to punish someone. In the street I can see that TSD/TKDers will rotate more for power. Does this help Miles?

 

[YoungMan]

Roundhouse as I do it:

1. Initiate a circular torque with the hips and torso
2. Horizontally chamber the back leg so that the calf is parallel to the floor
3. Pivot 180-degrees with the supporting leg
4. Bring the kicking leg around so that it unwinds into the kick.
5. The knee will be straight upon impact, the foot does not go past the target.


The kicking leg should be aligned with hips and armpit when finished; area of contact is the instep; targets are the stomach or the fleshy area of the jaw.

 

[CDKJudoka]

An addendum: For sparring and SD, the target for the roundhouse is past the target, while in forms it's a snap to the target and rechamber. Myself, I like following a roundhouse with either a turn around side kick, or a pinwheel kick.

Now side kicks should be the same between all versions of TKD as it is the signature kick, to my understanding. For technique, and form we start with a vertical chamber, pivot 180 degrees on the supporting foot using our "back pocket" as the "aiming" tool. The leg is then brought parallel with the floor, and then thrust out, using the heel as the striking point.

 

[Miles]

I was taught that for sparring in tournaments or just a class scrimmage, we were to align with the target for a near straight line of extension. .....................(heavily edited by Miles) The round kick can be lauched with many slight variations on penetration, chamber & snap relative to point or full contact intent. I guess I should have added this qualifier to my previous statement about only seeing a TSD/TKD round kick rotating thru is during spinning 360, 540's , I have only seen that rotation when a TSD/TKDer is trying to punish someone. In the street I can see that TSD/TKDers will rotate more for power. Does this help Miles?

Yes, it does! Thanks!

What is your Kwan-lineage?