(Rewritten version)The real truth on ITF Taekwon do from my perspective

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kwon 17

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In every Taekwon do forum there are bound to be "Tkd Bashers"."Tkd Bashers" are people who go around saying stuff about the two commonly known
Taekwondo organizations known as ITF and WTF.However, in this article I will try to answer the common questions tkd bashers ask, such as ,why does tkd kick so much,why does tkd kick so high,why do they use sign wave,what is sine wave,and why doesn't tkd use any hand techniques.

There are many reasons why tkd kicks so much and why they kick so high.Taekwondo stylist tend to kick so much because the fact that your legs are longer than your hands,they are stronger than your hands(3 to 4 times stronger),and kicks enable you to attack and cause serious damage to parts on your different parts on your body such as your groin and knees.Since Taekwon do kicks so much people come to believe that tkd has no hand strikes.However,there are known to be 40 hand strikes in taekwon do.Taekwondo's high kicking history dates far back to kicking people off of horses but that not the reason Taekwon do kicks high.Taekwon do kicks high because there are targets located higher up on your body that can cause more damage than targets located lower on your body.The effects can range from a concusion to a knockout.Some people come to conclude that Taekwondo stylist only kick above the waist when that is not true.Taekwon do stylist also go for targets lower on your body such as your groin and knee as mentioned before.

Another misbelief from tkd bashers and non tkd practitioners is that Taekwon do lacks hand strikes.If looked into, Taekwon do has a various amount of strikes such as the common cross and jab found in boxing as well as many knife hand strikes and twin punches such as the twin upset punch which is a strike to the stomach.Some people come to believe that tkd hand strikes vanish when free sparring comes around,but this is not true if you look at true itf style free sparring.Unlike WTF sparring ,itf sparring is continous.Also unlike WTF sparring you can strike to the head with punches, and rounds are not stoped unless penaltys are commited.

Like some martial arts, Taekwondo has tools that aids you in developing power.The most commonly known tools are sine wave,theory of power,and the incoporating of the entire body in order to execute a block or strike.Sine wave is the most recent tool in taekwondo which aids the practitioner in developing power.The sine wave motion is down up down .When moving forward to execute a walking stance obverse punch the practioner first lowers his/her body and then traveling at that level he/she moves up at the last moment and then strikes with the entire body behind the strike.This all may sound like a long series of movements but when executed correctly it's a brief movement.When tkd practioners strike they incorporate the hips,shoulders,and knees into each strike along with there body.The last tkd tool is the theory of power which follows Newton's law of physics.The theory of power consist of Equilibruim,Mass,Speed,Breath Control,Concentration,and
Reaction force.

To conclude this article I would like to thank Matt for incouraging me to do this article as well as Hollywood.In short,I hope I gave a new viewpoint of ITF Taekwon do to all of the tkd bashers and if I didn't my goal here wasn't to persuade you guys to stop bashing tkd my goal was to give you a new viewpoint on it and if I failed its not about the victory its about the battle.

TAE-Jump, kick, or smash with the foot
Kwon-To punch or destroy with the hand
DO-Cannot be demonstrated physically it is the art,way,or method.
 

Marginal

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kwon 17 said:
Taekwondo's high kicking history dates far back to kicking people off of horses but that not the reason Taekwon do kicks high.
Nobody kicked people off horses. It's a myth. Taekyon was more of a folk wrestling affair, and Shotokan was never developed with the purpose of knocking people off horses. Unless Gen Choi was training the 29th division to do so, there's no reason to beleive anyone ever used anything remotely like TKD to dismount horsemen.

Taekwon do kicks high because there are targets located higher up on your body that can cause more damage than targets located lower on your body.The effects can range from a concusion to a knockout.Some people come to conclude that Taekwondo stylist only kick above the waist when that is not true.
Most TKD's conflated with Olymic rules sparring, which fosters the image of the armless high kicker.

Taekwon do has a various amount of strikes such as the common cross and jab found in boxing as well as many knife hand strikes and twin punches such as the twin upset punch which is a strike to the stomach.
To be specific, obverse punch = jab, reverse punch = cross, upward punch = uppercut, angle punch = hook etc. (There is an issue of how well these are trained relative to boxing) Boxing punches are usually delivered with the last three knuckles while TKD favors the first two.

Some people come to believe that tkd hand strikes vanish when free sparring comes around,but this is not true if you look at true itf style free sparring.Unlike WTF sparring ,itf sparring is continous.
WTF sparring is also continous.

Also unlike WTF sparring you can strike to the head with punches, and rounds are not stoped unless penaltys are commited.
Stoppages happen frequently because of the various warnings and point deductions.
 

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Much Much MUCH better! Kudos...

Please keep in mind: These forums are great for putting your thoughts, beliefs, insights, knowledge and ideas out there! BUT, be very ready to have them challenged. Don't look at it as offensive challenge, but as a way to sharpen up your own ideas by way of having to argue them out to their logical conclusions. Be ready to defend, but do so like you would in a sparing match in your Dojang... respect before, respect after....even though the clashing may be fierce. We can still go to the pub after class and share a couple of tall cool ones. ((OK... you might need to get something virgin for the next three years...but that's better for you anyway.)) :) Some will clash with you with more 'attitude' or even abrupt rudeness.... maintain standards for yourself that reflect well on yourself, your family, your art, your instructor and your school..and you'll be able to hold your head up HIGH no matter what

OK: Kicks.
Yes, they are powerful. More powerful than arms. BUT: if you look at the body as a system of levers (which it is) then the arms have a greater capacity for delivering power to and through a target. When you powerfully propel a forceful movement forward you (according to Newtonian physics) will get an equal and opposite force back at you. So... when you do a shuffling in side kick on someone, your force extends forward powerfully, but there's recoil as well back into your body. I'm sure you've seen it time and again, newbies falling on their backs the first time they try to forcefully kick a punching bag.... BOOM.....flat on their rump. See, your ability to overcome the force of the recoil is in direct proportion to your ability to maintain a stable base. When you kick you will ALWAYS and ONLY have a base as long and wide as only ONE of your feet. True: in TKD we are taught to overcome this through body momentum, but then some of our potential forward momentum isn't delivered into the target..but is tied up in trying to overcome the recoil force. So...a diminished force moving forward and a MUCH narrower base. PLUS: Your center of gravity is higher when you kick.

Yes: you legs are longer and therefore can reach your attacker sooner.
BUT: A limb can always be grabbed. Remember, whenever you strike out with any limb, you aren't just hitting but also putting a part of your body into the attackers personal space ((grabbing/striking space)). As the legs are longer they take longer to move from one point to another... so getting them in and getting them out takes longer than the arms do. PLUS: When you are kicking and have a greater chance of having the limb grabbed...you're still on that tiny little base with a higher center of gravity and working to overcome that recoil. Not good.
ALSO: when you kick, if you miss or didn't have the desired effect (which happens, even for goooood kickers) you're still standing on one foot.

Kicking high: just not logical. Kicking to the head is like punching to the foot, not good. But, if you aren't super fast, kicking to the head Can get you punched in the foot. Seen it happen.

I am NOT saying that kicks aren't good or aren't applicable in combat. I know better than that! But to be the foundational work for the art to the point that that art is really Known for it? Dubious strategy I think. Though there ARE those 40 some techniques IN TKD, that doesn't make them 'foundational'. You will always respond the way you train, and that which you train the most and the most often IS the foundation.

Just some things to think about. I hope this helps spark a good conversation!!
I look forward to it.

Your Brother
John
 

terryl965

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Kwon this is a much better appoach so keep up the good work and remember everybody will not have your views about self defense, I too do not recomend kicking to the head in a SD act it is much better to r\take out the knee or leg with a kick. The thing about kicking people off horse is a mythe sorry.

Terry Lee Stoker
 

Brother John

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terryl965 said:
The thing about kicking people off horse is a mythe sorry.
Terry Lee Stoker
Yeah...
that heap has been shoveled around for a long time.
I recall hearing it back when I was a very young kid taking Moo Duk Kwan.
Silly, but a common Myth-steak.
Could you imagine trying this?? Imagine missing?? OUCH. Then YOU will get kicked in the head.....
by the horse.



No thanks....

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Brother John

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I was hoping that my earlier points would spark a discussion.
Aren't there any TKD guys/gals around who'd like to address these points??

Love a friendly back and forth on them.

Your Brother
John
 

Han-Mi

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Why must we also always asume that all practitioners under WTF are olympic style.
I suppose my studio is no like most, but we train to be well rounded fighters. Though our focus is on kciks, we include boxing drills, ju jitsu and practices from severalother styles that my instructor and some of us have picked up along the way.

Also, the hips as a center point of strikes and kicks is a good way of putting the basic methodology of TKD. Torque = power and the best potential for torque in the body is the hips.

One thing I don't undestand is why someone would use the last three knuckles or the middle two instead of the first two. I had my first conversation with someone about this on the fourth, I've never heard of anyone using anything other than the first two knuckles if they are trained. The smaller knuckles are weaker and more apt to be damaged or broken. also, a finer point of two knuckles allows for better concentration of power and better precision with strikes.
 

Marginal

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Han-Mi said:
One thing I don't undestand is why someone would use the last three knuckles or the middle two instead of the first two. I had my first conversation with someone about this on the fourth, I've never heard of anyone using anything other than the first two knuckles if they are trained. The smaller knuckles are weaker and more apt to be damaged or broken. also, a finer point of two knuckles allows for better concentration of power and better precision with strikes.

Boxers tend to argue that hitting with the last three knuckles is a natural alignment. Since they're also using those gloves, worrying about concentration of power in that context is pointless. Some other MA's prefer the last three knuckles, IIRC, Wing Chun is one of those.

Brother John:Just for the sake of keeping the conversation going, Is the return energy really that much of an issue once you learn how to properly chamber and retract? Leaning into the kick helps resolve a lot of the issues you brought up. If you can only deliver a kigh kick by leaning way backwards, you've sacrificed so much power regardless that you might as well not bother.

The whole "never kick high, because it will always get grabbed" line of thought doesn't strike me as realistic. There's a definite high risk/reward ratio there, but I don't see much merit is speaking in absolutes. Sometimes a high kick may actually be appropriate.

Outside of Fist of Legend, I've never seen a high kick punched. Doubt it's a ever considered a high percentage/preferred counter by anyone. Sounds more like a flukey happening. Does illustrate that a punch is faster, but that is not something I am going to ever specifically worry about.
 

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I think a lot of tmes it seems to me that people think of techniques in isolation and not as part of a possible combination of attacks.

There are a lot of things I would not do in sparring simply because they are slow.... Or rather, there are a lot of techniques I would not start with, if my opponent was just standing there in a fighting stance waiting for me. I would use faster attacks to get him distracted, or off balance, backing up or bending over or looking the wrong way or something. Then *iff* my opponent was in a good position for a high powererd kick, a spinning kick or a head kick or something, I would use it. It's all about knowing the situation, knowing what you can do and evaluating your position against your opponent's.

So yeah, some kicks are pretty foolish if you think you are just going to throw that kick, land it, and knock you opponent out, but they can be useful as a follow on attack once you've used a faster strike to get you opponent unsteady...*iff* oppourtunity presents.
 

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Yeah well, that assumes that people who study TKD are capable of thinking ahead and setting up their shots.

But since we always kick people in the head, obviously we can't. ;)
 

Brother John

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Marginal said:
Brother John:Just for the sake of keeping the conversation going, Is the return energy really that much of an issue once you learn how to properly chamber and retract? Leaning into the kick helps resolve a lot of the issues you brought up. If you can only deliver a kigh kick by leaning way backwards, you've sacrificed so much power regardless that you might as well not bother.

The whole "never kick high, because it will always get grabbed" line of thought doesn't strike me as realistic. There's a definite high risk/reward ratio there, but I don't see much merit is speaking in absolutes. Sometimes a high kick may actually be appropriate.

Outside of Fist of Legend, I've never seen a high kick punched. Doubt it's a ever considered a high percentage/preferred counter by anyone. Sounds more like a flukey happening. Does illustrate that a punch is faster, but that is not something I am going to ever specifically worry about.

hey Marge..
(HA!)
Thanks for kepping the ball bouncing. I hope this can really be a productive discussion.

On the issue of the power recoil. Yes, you will always have to take recoil into account. The fact that you lean toward the direction of the kick to compensate is part of the problem. In delivering power to and through a target the greatest thing we must do is have our body momentum into the strike.....be it hand or foot, no difference. But if the forward projection of our bodies momentum is being used merely to compensate for recoil...as in the case with kicks, then Much of the potential power that we would have had blasting the target...is now just keeping us vertical. That's a pretty major powerloss too. Then you take the JAM into account, and ouch...
See.. the punch to the foot, I was pretty much joking around (though I've seen it happen, and not in a movie, but on a 3rd Dan TKDist.)...but the "Jam", where someone comes into the kicker and imposes their body well inside of the kicking legs apex of velocity....THAT happens a LOT, even to very very good kickers with years of experience. Then it's a contest of leverage, the velocity isn't there (it got jammed before it could develop)...but there's a good deal of strength in the leg yet, at that point it's less of a 'kick' and more of a leg-press. BUT: There's still that center of gravity thing and the tiny foundation of the ONE foot thing.... so the Leg-presser has no ability, regardless of skill or power/musculature, to overcome the now rooted and powerful leverage of the other person who's legs are down and feet firmly planted down into the ground and is free to project their power staight into and through the would be kicker with their free hand(s). At this point (I repeat: a common point) it's No contest, the one standing on one foot is going to go down....at best. Now if the person they tried to kick has more than a hand-ful of months training and actually does something like grab the leg (which is easy and simple when the kick's been jammed) or worse yet.....STRIKES the kicker Anywhere in the upper-body...they WILL go down. Marginal, you said that
Leaning into the kick helps resolve a lot of the issues you brought up.
Ever punch someone who was leaning toward your punch? Ever punch someone who was stading on one foot? Think about doing both at the same time. Not good. Leaning into it is pretty much the only way to keep from falling on your but from the very force you yourself are generating. True. But that's not really the issue I brought forth. That actually makes the argument for the tactic of kicking that much worse. Remember, to an experienced adversary.... every ounce of power that you put into your body-momentum in any one direction....is another ounce of power that they can use against you. It's simply the force they will borrow to apply back to you. THEN: There's the whole issue again of your small base of one foot. You're telling me that while you are standing on one foot you will lean OUTSIDE of your base? Ask any grappler, or any yellow belt in any style that practices even some grappling in the art they practice what will happen if they are fighting and lean out further than their base can support...
BOOM. Lets say you miss. Lets say that the person dodged/ducked the forceful kick. Now... if your forward momentum and Leaning is sufficient to deal with your own developed recoil-force.... now it's enough to jerk you forward. If you are 'leaning' into the kick, how do you retract that quickly? It takes a solid base to move your center of gravity quickly in one direction or the other, now you aren't just talking about retracting your body momentum forward, but also a shift in balance that you now must reverse. Any motion that you need to reverse takes energy and time, the fact that the base is narrow/shallow now means that it will take ever more energy to stop and retract it... unless you intend to just fall forward.

Ever try to jam a punch? You can, but it's harder....and their feet stay on the ground. They still have a chance, they still have leverage, they've not leaned outside of their base. And: When you jam that one punch, you'll have the other hand HOT on it's tail.
Can't do that with the feet.

No leaning back when you kick? That's good. That's what my Tae Kwan Do instructor always used to say as well, never lean back. But: if you don't lean back...then you can't compensate (balance wise) for a forward lean.

Just more thoughts to chew on.
I look forward to your reply.

Your Brother
John.
 

Marginal

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It's not so much an issue of leaning forward as it is leaning into the kick. (Which ideally keeps you as near to verticle as possible.) For example on a front kick, it's not an issue since you shouldn't be going above the solar plexus anyway. On a side/back kick, it's still not much of an issue as I see it becasue you can generate a great amount of momentum, and as long as you're properly balanced, you're not pitching into your face. Turning kicks/roundhouse kicks don't really rely on forward momentum, so the return vector's not a big problem when it comes to maintaining your balance just on impact alone. Jamming's another issue. Jamming and grabbing's another. ;)

I've been jammed, stuck on one leg and had the opponent charge in punching etc before. I rarely fall down as a result of this, and usually have time to reset my base. (Usually when I've fallen it's been a result of me trying to kick further than flexibility would allow, which then yanked my supporting foot off the ground) High center of gravity and tiny foundation are the same thing. If you stay close to verticle, it helps keep your base better rooted. It also keeps you from rocketing forward if you miss. You will likely lose if your leg is caught high, and while even the best kickers have gotten their legs caught, it does not mean that all high kicks will then, all be caught.

I'll mention now that I am not a high kicker per se. I usually use them in sparring in situations when someone's trying to back out of hands range, when they're in fairly close so that mid level kicks can't be successfully executed. (A great time I find to smack them in the back of a head with a lead leg side turning kick while they're more focused on trading punches.) I like them in situations where I've set them up. Throwing them out as openers, etc has always had a low success rate for me, so I never got in the habit of throwing such kicks. (If I am, I'm probably just trying to get someone to back off, bait them in, or control space.)

Not hard to jam a punch. Just whack 'em in the corresponding shoulder. You can also yank someone off balance easily if you catch a punch while they're leaning forward. I still use punches. ;)

Brother John said:
No leaning back when you kick? That's good. That's what my Tae Kwan Do instructor always used to say as well, never lean back. But: if you don't lean back...then you can't compensate (balance wise) for a forward lean.
If you're not too far back or forward, you don't have to compensate with leaning. You can simply bend your supporting knee. Use your lower base to reestablish balance. Once you start using your upper body for balance, you fall down.
 

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kwon 17 in bold:

There are many reasons why tkd kicks so much and why they kick so high.Taekwondo stylist tend to kick so much because the fact that your legs are longer than your hands,they are stronger than your hands(3 to 4 times stronger)

This is the reason given, and it makes sense...but kicking high is for some almost a fetish...one I had, I might add, when I was young and thus inclined.


and kicks enable you to attack and cause serious damage to parts on your different parts on your body such as your groin and knees.


While a few TKD schools practice these techniques, many don't and for the reason cited above: An obssession with kicking high.

Since Taekwon do kicks so much people come to believe that tkd has no hand strikes.However,there are known to be 40 hand strikes in taekwon do.

This is true. They, like shots to the knee and groin, are also not trained all that often...and when trained, often done inefficiently and in a "one step sparring" context, which is impractical at intermediate and advanced levels. The "one steps" are very often done against an "attacker's" lunge punches with his negative hand chambered to the hip...all from a clean front stance. Our typical sociopathic bruiser doesn't attack with lunge punches.


Taekwondo's high kicking history dates far back to kicking people off of horses


Probably not. As addressed elsewhere on this thread, that would be very difficult to do even against a horseman sitting on a stationary horse. Recall the myth of the young general who kicked an opposing enemy officer off a horse with a spin kick, killing him? How does one do this while wearing armor heavily weighted with plate and chainmail, against an opponent wearing armor? Please replicate it for me, video it, and send it on. I’d love to see someone pull it off.

We mount horses for a purpose…to move on them. I think it unlikely a man encumbered with armor is going to kick a man moving on a horse. If this were common surely some European or non-Korean observer would have noted it in some military annals somewhere. This is not the case.

With that, I won’t continue to beat a dead horse.


Taekwon do has a various amount of strikes such as the common cross and jab found in boxing

Which, if used, has probably been taken from boxing. TKD in the old days didn’t use a jab and a cross as practiced in boxing. The Koreans field some very good boxers in the international arena, however, so it makes sense that some of those skills would bleed over...but a lunge punch and a reverse punch are not a jab and a cross.

and twin punches such as the twin upset punch which is a strike to the stomach.


Which most of us have yet to see used to any effect in any arena of combat, either sport or street. Most TKD practitioners would be hard pressed to find a way of pulling it off. Hitting people with it upsets them, certainly.

.The last tkd tool is the theory of power which follows Newton's law of physics.The theory of power consist of Equilibruim,Mass,Speed,Breath Control,Concentration,and
Reaction force.


All percussive systems follow the principle of F=ma. We can't punch someone without following those principles. Note that Asian martial arts systems who referred to Newton’s work likely didn’t do so until the 20th century. Referring to Newton might usefully explain things to the modern novice, but validating our art by referring to Newton is an argument from authority.


Now...Kwon 17, before you assume I'm a TKD basher, I'm not. I've taught TKD since 1978. I'm a TKD pragmatist, a skeptic who chuckles at--but no longer buys into--the myths of the Korean arts that have been passed down for decades.

The razor I use to chop away the naive credulity so many apply to our art is one I've used with all of the arts I've encountered. I have profound respect for Tae Kwon Do as well as those other systems...but my respect for it doesn't entail dressing any of them in illusions. We serve our arts ill by ascribing to them powers that they don't have, nurturing anecdotes about them that are apocryphal, or fostering reputations for them that are not deserved.

Tae Kwon Do, like any art, will have its detractors. The first and most critical detractors of the art ought to be the practitioners of it themselves. If our art is to have any validity we have to cut away all the fantastical notions we hold about it. If we are to be taken seriously by other martial arts we have to recognize our arts limitations and not attempt to give it capacities it lacks. If it is to survive we need to let it grow and not arthritically lock itself into the past.


And if we are to stand by it with apologetics, we need to do so without fear.



Regards,


Steve
 

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hardheadjarhead said:
Now...Kwon 17, before you assume I'm a TKD basher, I'm not. I've taught TKD since 1978. I'm a TKD pragmatist, a skeptic who chuckles at--but no longer buys into--the myths of the Korean arts that have been passed down for decades.

The razor I use to chop away the naive credulity so many apply to our art is one I've used with all of the arts I've encountered. I have profound respect for Tae Kwon Do as well as those other systems...but my respect for it doesn't entail dressing any of them in illusions. We serve our arts ill by ascribing to them powers that they don't have, nurturing anecdotes about them that are apocryphal, or fostering reputations for them that are not deserved.

Tae Kwon Do, like any art, will have its detractors. The first and most critical detractors of the art ought to be the practitioners of it themselves. If our art is to have any validity we have to cut away all the fantastical notions we hold about it. If we are to be taken seriously by other martial arts we have to recognize our arts limitations and not attempt to give it capacities it lacks. If it is to survive we need to let it grow and not arthritically lock itself into the past.
And if we are to stand by it with apologetics, we need to do so without fear.
Regards,
Steve
Steve-
those were the most practical and proper words on Tae Kwan Do I've ever read!!!
Thank you

Your Brother
John
 

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Brother John said:
Then it's a contest of leverage, the velocity isn't there (it got jammed before it could develop)...but there's a good deal of strength in the leg yet, at that point it's less of a 'kick' and more of a leg-press. BUT: There's still that center of gravity thing and the tiny foundation of the ONE foot thing.... so the Leg-presser has no ability, regardless of skill or power/musculature, to overcome the now rooted and powerful leverage of the other person who's legs are down and feet firmly planted down into the ground and is free to project their power staight into and through the would be kicker with their free hand(s). At this point (I repeat: a common point) it's No contest, the one standing on one foot is going to go down....at best.
this looks like you are describing a side kick jam, in which case I and most people I've seen will jump off the planted foot and push off to allow for some room to defend or attack again. However, if it is a round kick getting jammed, the kicker is pretty much screwed, only thing you can od is try to dodge and get into a stance before damage is done, I'm pretty good at that, as I am still young and agile.

One thing I think we are all forgeting is that the majority of people out there are not experienced fighters and are not going to be able to close that distance with any sort of effectiveness. Tkd is definately effective against an average person and more than adequit for self defense, and IMHO TKD is effective against trained practitioners.

Also, to assume that someone would start with a spin or high kick without setting it up is just offensive. Part of training is learning to set your opponent up to be in the position you need them in or distract them with your hands before doing something as risky as a head or spinning kick. One of my favorite set-ups is the simple flinch, let them come at you and then I like to do a jump spin hook, but you can use many different techs. I land that kick on about 30% of the people I spar with in tournaments, I do admit however, that I usually have another advantage, be it experience or speed, if I do land that kick. It's all about analyzing the situation then acting accordingly, only throw risky kicks if you know you can with minimal risk making the effectivness of the technique even better.
 
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kwon 17

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hardheadjarhead said:
kwon 17 in bold:

There are many reasons why tkd kicks so much and why they kick so high.Taekwondo stylist tend to kick so much because the fact that your legs are longer than your hands,they are stronger than your hands(3 to 4 times stronger)

This is the reason given, and it makes sense...but kicking high is for some almost a fetish...one I had, I might add, when I was young and thus inclined.


and kicks enable you to attack and cause serious damage to parts on your different parts on your body such as your groin and knees.

While a few TKD schools practice these techniques, many don't and for the reason cited above: An obssession with kicking high.

Since Taekwon do kicks so much people come to believe that tkd has no hand strikes.However,there are known to be 40 hand strikes in taekwon do.

This is true. They, like shots to the knee and groin, are also not trained all that often...and when trained, often done inefficiently and in a "one step sparring" context, which is impractical at intermediate and advanced levels. The "one steps" are very often done against an "attacker's" lunge punches with his negative hand chambered to the hip...all from a clean front stance. Our typical sociopathic bruiser doesn't attack with lunge punches.


Taekwondo's high kicking history dates far back to kicking people off of horses

Probably not. As addressed elsewhere on this thread, that would be very difficult to do even against a horseman sitting on a stationary horse. Recall the myth of the young general who kicked an opposing enemy officer off a horse with a spin kick, killing him? How does one do this while wearing armor heavily weighted with plate and chainmail, against an opponent wearing armor? Please replicate it for me, video it, and send it on. I’d love to see someone pull it off.

We mount horses for a purpose…to move on them. I think it unlikely a man encumbered with armor is going to kick a man moving on a horse. If this were common surely some European or non-Korean observer would have noted it in some military annals somewhere. This is not the case.

With that, I won’t continue to beat a dead horse.


Taekwon do has a various amount of strikes such as the common cross and jab found in boxing

Which, if used, has probably been taken from boxing. TKD in the old days didn’t use a jab and a cross as practiced in boxing. The Koreans field some very good boxers in the international arena, however, so it makes sense that some of those skills would bleed over...but a lunge punch and a reverse punch are not a jab and a cross.

and twin punches such as the twin upset punch which is a strike to the stomach.

Which most of us have yet to see used to any effect in any arena of combat, either sport or street. Most TKD practitioners would be hard pressed to find a way of pulling it off. Hitting people with it upsets them, certainly.

.The last tkd tool is the theory of power which follows Newton's law of physics.The theory of power consist of Equilibruim,Mass,Speed,Breath Control,Concentration,and
Reaction force.

All percussive systems follow the principle of F=ma. We can't punch someone without following those principles. Note that Asian martial arts systems who referred to Newton’s work likely didn’t do so until the 20th century. Referring to Newton might usefully explain things to the modern novice, but validating our art by referring to Newton is an argument from authority.


Now...Kwon 17, before you assume I'm a TKD basher, I'm not. I've taught TKD since 1978. I'm a TKD pragmatist, a skeptic who chuckles at--but no longer buys into--the myths of the Korean arts that have been passed down for decades.

The razor I use to chop away the naive credulity so many apply to our art is one I've used with all of the arts I've encountered. I have profound respect for Tae Kwon Do as well as those other systems...but my respect for it doesn't entail dressing any of them in illusions. We serve our arts ill by ascribing to them powers that they don't have, nurturing anecdotes about them that are apocryphal, or fostering reputations for them that are not deserved.

Tae Kwon Do, like any art, will have its detractors. The first and most critical detractors of the art ought to be the practitioners of it themselves. If our art is to have any validity we have to cut away all the fantastical notions we hold about it. If we are to be taken seriously by other martial arts we have to recognize our arts limitations and not attempt to give it capacities it lacks. If it is to survive we need to let it grow and not arthritically lock itself into the past.


And if we are to stand by it with apologetics, we need to do so without fear.



Regards,


Steve
JAR BOLD

This is the reason given,and it makes sense..... but for some almost a fetish.....one I had,I might add,when I was young and thus inclined.

For me and many others tkdoist,high kicking is not a fetish.Its is a technique that can be applied effectively in combat when the chance is given and cause decent damage towards your opponet.If your a good kicker,you could
excecute a high kick anytime you choose by either setting up with a low or middle kick.

This is true.They,like shots to the knees and groin,are also trained very often.........

In ITF schools, hand techniques are supposed to be practiced in repetition are either free sparring.Whats the point of hand techniques having a specific point vaule if they are not used at all.Sparring is used as an example because some come to believe that all taekwon do is, is sparring.I agree fully on the walking stance obverse punch technique used in taekwondo 1 step and other
arts such as karate.

Taekwon do has a varius amount of strikes.....

I am not sure if taekwondo had the jab and cross in the old days, but I am sure that tkd has techniques such as the jab,cross, and hooks applicated in the same way as boxing techniques, listed in the encyclopedia of taekwondo.I am also sure that some ITF schools practice such hand techniques as listed above in regular training sessions.

Twin punches....

Both the twin punches you've mentioned could be used in combat or sparring in a close quarters situation.

An average tkd basher wouldn't have evidence to the words they speak in which you did have.:asian:
 

Marginal

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kwon 17 said:
Both the twin punches you've mentioned could be used in combat or sparring in a close quarters situation.
They can, but I've never seen them used outside of Tekken 4, and I wouldn't want to use them myself. Seems to me like you're sacrificing leverage (can't really employ the hips in delivering the attack) and penetration for whatever you're acheiving with the twin punch. (Mainly becomes a push.)
 

Brother John

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this looks like you are describing a side kick jam, in which case I and most people I've seen will jump off the planted foot and push off to allow for some room to defend or attack again. However, if it is a round kick getting jammed, the kicker is pretty much screwed, only thing you can od is try to dodge and get into a stance before damage is done, I'm pretty good at that, as I am still young and agile.
Sure....it could be a side kick jam, or a front kick jam or back kick jam....or a jam of any kick that "Thrusts" out. The hinge kick getting jammed? Yeah, they're screwed.... but only slightly less so if it's a Thrusting kick (Side,Front,Back).
Lets take each of the basic kicks in turn and evaluate the hazards of getting jammed:
Front kick / Side kick / Back kick: These are the basic "thrusting" style kicks. This is what I've already evaluated...so I'll not belabor the point. BUT: I will say that the tactic of 'pushing off' of your attacker is something that only works in sparing. If it's a streetfighter and you place your foot on them long enough to 'push off' then you'd most likely get grabbed at the very least. If by "push off" you mean that you'd jump with your only supporting foot...I'd say that seeing as how you just got jammed (their momentum is moving toward you) and are currently in very close contact with one foot up in the air.... jumping off of your only base isn't a good idea at all. Also: like these thrusting kicks, it's really back to have the "Hip-hinge" kicks, like the axe kick or cresent kicks, jammed. VERY damaging. But you are right, a snap or 'round' kick (I call'm hinge kicks) if jammed......bad news.

One thing I think we are all forgeting is that the majority of people out there are not experienced fighters and are not going to be able to close that distance with any sort of effectiveness.
Closing the distance, to a streetfighter; trained or not, is ALL they've got. Call it the 'attack' or the bum-rush...whatever. But unless they are just going to stand there and stare at you, they will work to close the gap in a mad dash. Now....will they do so blindly? Maybe. Never know. But I don't think that most martial artists train to fight the Least effective attacker right? I know I don't aim for the lowest common-denominator adversary. You don't train and are satisified with training once you realize that you can at least defend yourself against a know nothing first time rage-blinded attacker.... right? To say that "My art is good enough to defend myself against someone who can't attack well." Isn't much of an assurance, and I'd think that ANY martial art can make that claim. Besides, in most 'self defense' situations...it'd be odd to find an attacker that lets you know they are coming, and lets you have a clue about their real intentions before they get w/in arms reach. You can't just kick every person who enters your space. Few, if any, fights begin at running distance.... they almost always begin at grabbing/pushing distance. As this person is moving to "GET AT" you, and it will most likely (wether they are trained or not) begin w/in close proximity to you... then suddenly going to one foot or even worse, hopping up off your feet, when you've not done anything yet to stop their continued forward momentum..... well.....it doesn't bode well for you in general.
TKD is effective against trained practitioners.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: Understand me in this> I am NOT trying to say that TKD is not an effective martial art! I am saying, much like my Brother Steve has said, that it's tactics and therefore training methods need to be diligently and heavily scrutinized. EVERY martial art needs this!! Though what I teach at my school is not TKD, I tell my guys all the time "Though kicking isn't one of our primary skills or tactics, NEVER underestimate a kicker, especially if they are a TKD'ist. The day you do is the day you taste shoe-leather!". And I really believe that. But, too many TKD'ists have some pretty thick rose colored glasses in regards to the history and tactics of their style.

Also, to assume that someone would start with a spin or high kick without setting it up is just offensive. Part of training is learning to set your opponent up to be in the position you need them in or distract them with your hands before doing something as risky as a head or spinning kick.
Yes, excellent point. If set up properly, most ANY martial arts technique will work. I call it the Frying-Pan concept: It'll work!! After you smash'm in the head with a frying pan first!
But really, setting up a strike is of paramount importance, but it's NO assurance. No offense, but if I know I'm up against a TKD'ist, I'll go ahead and eat a few punches....but I'm definitely sensitive to those feet!! Your tactic seems to me to be based on point sparing in which you MUST react to your opponents movements in order to keep them from scoring a point with something... but if they don't react in this way to your "Set up"....then it still won't work. EVEN if something is set up well, Crap still happens, and when it does, having one leg extended and standing on one foot is still extrememly hazardous.

Just some thoughts. I'm enjoying the discussion!
Your Brother
John
 

Han-Mi

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Brother John said:
Yes, excellent point. If set up properly, most ANY martial arts technique will work. I call it the Frying-Pan concept: It'll work!! After you smash'm in the head with a frying pan first!
But really, setting up a strike is of paramount importance, but it's NO assurance. No offense, but if I know I'm up against a TKD'ist, I'll go ahead and eat a few punches....but I'm definitely sensitive to those feet!! Your tactic seems to me to be based on point sparing in which you MUST react to your opponents movements in order to keep them from scoring a point with something... but if they don't react in this way to your "Set up"....then it still won't work. EVEN if something is set up well, Crap still happens, and when it does, having one leg extended and standing on one foot is still extrememly hazardous.

Just some thoughts. I'm enjoying the discussion!
Your Brother
John
I have had some limited kick boxing and MMA experience, so I know that even if they take the first couple of hits, it may set you up for something different than originally planned. Also, if the opponent is willing to stand there and take your hits, then you don't necessarily need to use anything beyond the basic punches, just hit em hard and knock em down. Most people don't like to get hit and will reflexivly block or dodge, allowing someone to be set up even in an unbarred situation. Now if they just take it and there was a plan originally to kick high, just change up and knee 'em right in the face or gut or worse, the groin. Or you can do a multitude of other things. Good point though about not everyone being that easy to set up and yes, there is always a matter of uncetainty and danger no matter what techs you are using.
 
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