Punch from hip or higher?

[Cirdan]

Yeah, I just re-read his post. I was curious, so I tried it.. . Sure enough I could do it, if I was solely working on speed without falling on my face. That said, I have serious doubts about how you could generate any power out of a kick like that. I do not claim to be a "perfect" martial artist, but in my 24 years of experience I could not generate any waist snap in a kick that maintains only 30% of my weight on my anchor leg and maintain my balance at the same time.

I am very interested in how Cirdan teaches this to his white belts. Maybe I'm missing something in what he is stating.

I don`t know what more there is to tell. We practice a stance almost indentical to the one in the picture (slight tilt foreward in the torso) all the time. We have a very simple beginner kata that includes the front kick without weight shifting and practice it as defense against a straight punch. That is basically it for white belts. You just have to get a good rooted stance and do it quickly and correctly. Anyway as Wadokas we are true technique nazis and will do it over and over and over until we get it right.

We do teach similar things to what dancingalone mentions, but not at lower levels. 9-8 Kyu have more of a kickboxer feel to it and the softer chinese influence becomes more pronounced as one advances.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well we keep the back leg straight so there is no active weight shift, but natuarlly it will root you as the kick impacts. Also using the energy from pulling the leg back quickly (like you touched a hot plate) will help you not dropping on your face.

As for how effective is.. a woman half my weight stopped me dead in my tracks when she finally got it right the first time. If I had not tightened my stomach muscles I would be lying on the floor. It is also extremely quick since you don`t have to do the weight shift. What we call "empty to spring".

I use this stance all the time, having tested it against people with a variety of backgrounds (karate, kickboxing, tkd, boxing Ju Jutsu, etc) I have not found it wanting. On the other hand I wouldn`t be any good in a similar 50/50 since it is not what I train.

(edit) You are probably right about the Chinese way of doing it. I train Wado Karate, but we are outside the big orgs and have a rather big influence from Chinese systems as well.

May I ask why (WE) are trying to eliminate any weight shift?
Sean

 

[ATC]

Yeah, I just re-read his post. I was curious, so I tried it.. . Sure enough I could do it, if I was solely working on speed without falling on my face. That said, I have serious doubts about how you could generate any power out of a kick like that. I do not claim to be a "perfect" martial artist, but in my 24 years of experience I could not generate any waist snap in a kick that maintains only 30% of my weight on my anchor leg and maintain my balance at the same time.

I am very interested in how Cirdan teaches this to his white belts. Maybe I'm missing something in what he is stating.

I am not sure but I would say that this type of kick from this stance is more for developing correct form for the front kick. This would be why you teach a white belt this. It develops the snap and sense of timing needed to do the front kick properly. In the stance in the image you would need to push off the floor with the kicking leg, then snap the kick out and return the foot to the floor all before falling. This would build a foundation for the kick done in a more natural stance. Great training tool but not a practical stance to be in for any kick.

I think I saw a video on this exact drill and it broke down why and what of this type of drill. I will try to find it and post it.

 

[Cirdan]

May I ask why (WE) are trying to eliminate any weight shift?
Sean

Why shift the weight if you don`t have to?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why shift the weight if you don`t have to?

Fair 'nuff.
Sean

 

[ATC]

...I think I saw a video on this exact drill and it broke down why and what of this type of drill. I will try to find it and post it.

Kicking drill from the front stance position at video position 6:37 on the time line of this video -->

 

[Cirdan]

I am not sure but I would say that this type of kick from this stance is more for developing correct form for the front kick. This would be why you teach a white belt this. It develops the snap and sense of timing needed to do the front kick properly. In the stance in the image you would need to push off the floor with the kicking leg, then snap the kick out and return the foot to the floor all before falling. This would build a foundation for the kick done in a more natural stance. Great training tool but not a practical stance to be in for any kick.

Some might think so, we stick with this stance as the main one for basics and fighting. Naturally we add others but they can almost all be seen as a variation of this one with the knee over the big toe. We use to say you can find every stance in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) and this is true if you look deep enough. I don`t see any problem executing any kick from here either. Different philosophies of movement I guess.

(can`t open the kicking drill link right now since I am at work)

 

[ATC]

Some might think so, we stick with this stance as the main one for basics and fighting. Naturally we add others but they can almost all be seen as a variation of this one with the knee over the big toe. We use to say you can find every stance in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) and this is true if you look deep enough. I don`t see any problem executing any kick from here either. Different philosophies of movement I guess.

(can`t open the kicking drill link right now since I am at work)

I can see any kick being performed from the stance in the image but as you even state this in your dojo/dojang is for basics. I cannot see this as a practical stance for any combat beyond basic.

Also, weight shift is a natural occurrence of movement itself, and cannot be eliminated. To eliminate weight shift means to stand still. Weight shift is the reason for any stance as well as the footwork involved in transition from on stance to another, as well as same stance to same stance in position changing. Without weight shifting you would not be able to walk.

 

[terryl965]

Kicking drill from the front stance position at video position 6:37 on the time line of this video -->

That is great fot building strength but I do not see power coming from it. Am I missing something here.

 

[terryl965]

Some might think so, we stick with this stance as the main one for basics and fighting. Naturally we add others but they can almost all be seen as a variation of this one with the knee over the big toe. We use to say you can find every stance in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) and this is true if you look deep enough. I don`t see any problem executing any kick from here either. Different philosophies of movement I guess.

(can`t open the kicking drill link right now since I am at work)

Is thier a way you could show us froma video of you or your students generating power from this type of stance?

 

[Cirdan]

I can see any kick being performed from the stance in the image but as you even state this in your dojo/dojang is for basics. I cannot see this as a practical stance for any combat beyond basic.

Also, weight shift is a natural occurrence of movement itself, and cannot be eliminated. To eliminate weight shift means to stand still. Weight shift is the reason for any stance as well as the footwork involved in transition from on stance to another, as well as same stance to same stance in position changing. Without weight shifting you would not be able to walk.

I also said it is used for fighting and that I have used it against other styles with no problem. As for "beyond basics", basics and kata are where higher belts spend most of their time perfecting movement. Would I use this in an actual fight? If I had to, sure but I would hide my intentions. As I said only the weight of the rear leg rests on the rear foot. It is very much possible to stand casually straight up, but with all the weight on one foot and ready to spring to attack. Imagine the opening of Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan)after you first move your leg, but turn the torso a bit to the right do a strike in the direction your right foot points (instead of the usual technique to the left). Food for tought?

Of course we move, but why do it if we don`t have to? Moving without a purpose is just wasteful. The snap kick I described is ment to use against someone who moves to attack you. If I need to move foreward I will do so, for instance with an instep.

 

[Cirdan]

Is thier a way you could show us froma video of you or your students generating power from this type of stance?

Sorry, I don`t have any videos from our Dojo. I`ll see if there are any similar at youtube or something later if I have the time. Going on a trip this weekend.

 

[ATC]

I also said it is used for fighting and that I have used it against other styles with no problem.

You did say that, I just can't see it.

As for "beyond basics", basics and kata are where higher belts spend most of their time perfecting movement.

I think we all agree on this

Would I use this in an actual fight? If I had to, sure but I would hide my intentions. As I said only the weight of the rear leg rests on the rear foot. It is very much possible to stand casually straight up, but with all the weight on one foot and ready to spring to attack.

Now you are saying something different. Weight on one leg vs. the other in a stance that does not have your balance of center to far in any direction is different than what the image shows. The image shows a long or front stance, not a ready or walking stance. The stance being the difference factor. So I guess we are on the same page.

Imagine the opening of Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan)after you first move your leg, but turn the torso a bit to the right do a strike in the direction your right foot points (instead of the usual technique to the left). Food for tought?

Not really. The concept is a simple enough.

Of course we move, but why do it if we don`t have to? Moving without a purpose is just wasteful.

Again, no one would disagree with this. But movement in combat between similar opponents for the most part will be needed. And if you don't practice movement then when needed you will be at a most disadvantage.

The snap kick I described is ment to use against someone who moves to attack you. If I need to move foreward I will do so, for instance with an instep.

Yes, but from your 3rd statement above I now infer that it would not be from a front (long) stance.

I thank you for elaborating.

 

[Cirdan]

You did say that, I just can't see it.
Now you are saying something different. Weight on one leg vs. the other in a stance that does not have your balance of center to far in any direction is different than what the image shows. The image shows a long or front stance, not a ready or walking stance. The stance being the difference factor. So I guess we are on the same page.

The weight is in the same place in both. It only looks different because the free leg touches the floor somewhere else. See, just like I would like my opponent to think you could not see it.

Again, no one would disagree with this. But movement in combat between similar opponents for the most part will be needed. And if you don't practice movement then when needed you will be at a most disadvantage.

When needed, agreed.

Yes, but from your 3rd statement above I now infer that it would not be from a front (long) stance.

Principle is the same, it just have to travel a shorter distance. As I have said, it only support it`s own weight. I can also perform the snap kick we talked about earlier, directly to my left.

Break the code and you see it is all the same.

Have a nice weekend, I won`t be back until monday night.

 

[ATC]

Have a nice weekend, I won`t be back until monday night.

Have a safe trip.

 

[Haakon]

Most schools/styles that I've observed have punched from the hip in basic motions and forms. This makes sense because it is depicted this way in both the Kukkiwon textbook and in the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do. I imagine it is done this way because of the power generated from the hip.

However, I have also observed some cases where the fist is higher on the side, such that the forearm is parallel to the floor. I think it might be from Moo Duk Kwan teachings, but I'm not sure. I think the logic here is that the punch is faster and more direct and its force is concentrated in only one direction (as opposed to also arcing upwards). I think another advantage might be stronger and greater reach as an elbow strike for a target behind you.

Are there additional reasons to consider for choosing to do one or the other? Is this stylistic, or was the position of the fist changed at some point?

Thanks,
Chris

The first style of Tae Kwon Do I trained in was Song Moo Kwan, they taught using a high chamber, up near the pectoral muscle. When I moved west and started ITF style it was back to chambering down at the hip. That was the hardest habit to break, I don't know how many times I was told "chamber at your hip!" trying to switch styles.

I don't know if there is an advantage to it, but it feels more natural to me to chamber high than down by the hip.