Punch from hip or higher?

[dancingalone]

the stance in the illustration carries about 70% of the weight on the front foot. That does not lend itself to front leg kicks, snapped or otherwise.

Agreed.

I don't think the stance sees much action outside of forms and technique practice.

All stances have some practical value and application. It's true that you wouldn't likely be sitting in a front stance waiting for someone to attack you. But I don't think it out of the question that the front stance might be something you flash into for a moment as you deliver that reverse punch to your attacker with full hip extension and power.

Same thing with something like a cat stance. Many of my students think it's just something goofy you practice in forms until I explain it's a means of sidestepping and attack before transitioning into a counter of some sort, perhaps a kick.

 

[ATC]

I think I understand what you're getting at, and I agree that it would take more time to raise your fist from your waist to your rib before punching. But it would not take longer if your fist was already chambered at the rib, never dropping to the waist. I don't feel at all unrelaxed doing this, but it is how I learned and what my muscles are used to.

Actually, when we learned we needed to tweak some things to be in line with the Kukkiwon — the fist chamber is one of the details I struggled with the most. Holding my fist that low just makes me feel, I dunno, lazy? too relaxed?


I'll concede that the distance to the target is perhaps negligible. I guess no one thinks that 2-3 inches will make that much difference... But what about the trajectory? What are the positives/negatives of "straight on" vs "slight-angle-upward"?

I feel that "straight on" has the advantage from a body mechanics perspective since it ought to lend more strength and stability.
I think the "slight-angle-upward" would risk breaking the line from knuckle to wrist to elbow.

(BTW — very interesting to hear how different schools teach such a basic skill and the reasoning behind the technique. )

All true statements but hands tend to drop for a variety of reason. I know I will find even myself needed to raise the hand many times before striking. However the hand rarely drop below the waist (WTF sport sparring aside). It is not natural to keep the hands at the mid rib level, that take some effort. You would need to keep the shoulders a bit raised as well. I think KKW just felt that the natural position would be the waist and no wasted effort is needed.

KKW is all about shaving fractions of a second off of every and each technique. So every inch (MM) counts. Take a very fast person vs. an average or even slow person. Measure the speed of a technique and you would say not that much difference really, until matched in combat. If someone strikes at .050 seconds, but another strikes at .040 seconds, what is the difference? Only 1 100th of a second. But that 100th of a second really translates into being hit twice before you can hit once. When hit, we tend to stop any momentum started by a technique. Then we react to the hit. 1 100th of a second and you miss but get hit then get hit again before you even attempt to strike again.

Fractions of seconds count in combat. .5 of a second difference can be compared to the difference between white belts and black belts. The difference is that huge.

 

[dancingalone]

KKW is all about shaving fractions of a second off of every and each technique.

That's interesting to know. Of course if speed is your primary concern, you should never chamber. All strikes should originate from wherever your hands are at that moment. In real application this tends to be the case but you'd think you would formally codify it in your system... I believe the American Kenpo guys do, calling it 'point of origin'.

 

[ATC]

the stance in the illustration carries about 70% of the weight on the front foot. That does not lend itself to front leg kicks, snapped or otherwise.

I don't think the stance sees much action outside of forms and technique practice.

Outside of a fighting stance there are few stances that are 50/50 or close to it. The front stance is an attack stance. You may lunge punch from it, or even reverse punch. But you would not stay in that stance for any period of time. Once the attack was over you would move off back into some kind of neutral stance almost immediately.

Just like a back stance is a defensive stance with about 70% of the weight on the back leg. However you would only be in this stance when defending and only for those moments until you moved off or in to attack. Even a normal fighting stance will shift weight depending on the position of the fight (moving forward or backwards). No stance if meant to be held when in combat.

To me the stance in the image is nothing more than that, a stance for illustration purposes.

 

[granfire]

Agreed.

All stances have some practical value and application. It's true that you wouldn't likely be sitting in a front stance waiting for someone to attack you. But I don't think it out of the question that the front stance might be something you flash into for a moment as you deliver that reverse punch to your attacker with full hip extension and power.

Same thing with something like a cat stance. Many of my students think it's just something goofy you practice in forms until I explain it's a means of sidestepping and attack before transitioning into a counter of some sort, perhaps a kick.

Outside of a fighting stance there are few stances that are 50/50 or close to it. The front stance is an attack stance. You may lunge punch from it, or even reverse punch. But you would not stay in that stance for any period of time. Once the attack was over you would move off back into some kind of neutral stance almost immediately.

Just like a back stance is a defensive stance with about 70% of the weight on the back leg. However you would only be in this stance when defending and only for those moments until you moved off or in to attack. Even a normal fighting stance will shift weight depending on the position of the fight (moving forward or backwards). No stance if meant to be held when in combat.

To me the stance in the image is nothing more than that, a stance for illustration purposes.

I can agree with that.
I was wrapped up in 'sport' issues for a moment.
I shall cleanse myself and repent

In any case, it's one more good tool to have in the tool box. But...
You can launch a mean back leg kick from that stance!

 

[Cirdan]

FWIW IMNSHO the illustration shows a lot more weight on the front foot with the front of the knee almost as far forward as the tip of the toes. From this position a lead leg front snap kick would require a major rearword weight shift before it could be done.

I don`t even know what those first letters mean except that you are not so humble... anyway I can see the illustration quite clearly and know it well since it is exactly how we practice basics.

Anyway you don`t need to shift any weight to snap kick from there. With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all. This is far from advanced stuff, we teach it to white belts.

 

[granfire]

I don`t even know what those first letters mean except that you are not so humble... anyway I can see the illustration quite clearly and know it well since it is exactly how we practice basics.

Anyway you don`t need to shift any weight to snap kick from there. With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all. This is far from advanced stuff, we teach it to white belts.

For what it's worth in my not so humble opinion

 

[Cirdan]

For what it's worth in my not so humble opinion

I thank thee humbly for this useful bit of information.

 

[granfire]

No problem.

 

[ATC]

That's interesting to know. Of course if speed is your primary concern, you should never chamber. All strikes should originate from wherever your hands are at that moment. In real application this tends to be the case but you'd think you would formally codify it in your system... I believe the American Kenpo guys do, calling it 'point of origin'.

Good points.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Anyway you don`t need to shift any weight to snap kick from there. With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all. This is far from advanced stuff, we teach it to white belts.

I guess Granfire and I are from Missouri (The Show ME state) Can't speak for him, but you would have to show me befoe I would believe that you can do a lead leg front snap kick as easily with the knee that far forward and that much weight on the lead leg vs a 50/50 stance with the knee further back.

 

[granfire]

I wonder if it is physically possible to do the kick with 70% of weight on the foot.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A forward leaning stance tends to lend itself more to hand techniques. A 50/50 to a mix of foot and hand, and a rear leaning stance (such as one sees in WTF sparring) lends itself more to foot techniques.

If you look at WTF competitors, they lean back, keep their hands down, and throw kicks, using the hands to guard the midsection and keeping their head back out of the way.

What I have seen of karate tournaments, the fighters tend to shift from front to back and spend a good amount of time in between, as karate tournament rules allow for a much greater range of attacks.

Daniel

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It is possible to kick with the front leg in a forward stance, even with 70% of your weight on the front leg. I think the key here is not how much weight is on either leg as much as it is the depth of the stance. The deeper the stance, the harder it becomes to transition your weight from leg to leg. If you are in a relatively shallow stance, it becomes quite easy to move that 70% quickly from the front leg to the back leg. Vice versa, it becomes nearly impossible in an extremely deep stance.

Personally I do not practice shallow stances, although I am not always in a super deep stance either. Just thought I would through my .02 in on the subject.

 

[dancingalone]

It is possible to kick with the front leg in a forward stance, even with 70% of your weight on the front leg. I think the key here is not how much weight is on either leg as much as it is the depth of the stance. The deeper the stance, the harder it becomes to transition your weight from leg to leg. If you are in a relatively shallow stance, it becomes quite easy to move that 70% quickly from the front leg to the back leg. Vice versa, it becomes nearly impossible in an extremely deep stance.

Personally I do not practice shallow stances, although I am not always in a super deep stance either. Just thought I would through my .02 in on the subject.

I think the point was that you couldn't perform a kick with so much weight preloaded on the front kick without making a weight shift of some type which seems true enough to me.

Cirdan said "With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all."

As I read this, I'm still thinking this is a weight shift to the back foot out of necessity. Cirdan's group just practices it over and over again until they can make the adjustment adeptly.

 

[ChrisJ]

Anyway you don`t need to shift any weight to snap kick from there. With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all. This is far from advanced stuff, we teach it to white belts.

This sounds similar to a drill from the Revolution of Kicking video for improving the front kick. See the following link at around the 6:40 mark:

This drill does have benefits for improving strength and flexibility. However, as an actual kick, I don't know how useful it would be.

-Chris

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think the point was that you couldn't perform a kick with so much weight preloaded on the front kick without making a weight shift of some type which seems true enough to me.

Cirdan said "With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all."

As I read this, I'm still thinking this is a weight shift to the back foot out of necessity. Cirdan's group just practices it over and over again until they can make the adjustment adeptly.

Yeah, I just re-read his post. I was curious, so I tried it.. . Sure enough I could do it, if I was solely working on speed without falling on my face. That said, I have serious doubts about how you could generate any power out of a kick like that. I do not claim to be a "perfect" martial artist, but in my 24 years of experience I could not generate any waist snap in a kick that maintains only 30% of my weight on my anchor leg and maintain my balance at the same time.

I am very interested in how Cirdan teaches this to his white belts. Maybe I'm missing something in what he is stating.

 

[dancingalone]

Yeah, I just re-read his post. I was curious, so I tried it.. . Sure enough I could do it, if I was solely working on speed without falling on my face. That said, I have serious doubts about how you could generate any power out of a kick like that. I do not claim to be a "perfect" martial artist, but in my 24 years of experience I could not generate any waist snap in a kick that maintains only 30% of my weight on my anchor leg and maintain my balance at the same time.

I am very interested in how Cirdan teaches this to his white belts. Maybe I'm missing something in what he is stating.

I'd like to hear a bit more too if I am misunderstanding.

That said, some Chinese systems focus a lot on rebounding and expansion movements to create power. Maybe this is what Cirdan is alluding to? To illustrate, SahBumNimRush, you're undoubtedly familiar with Heian Godan/Pyung Ahn Oh Dan. Some groups perform the uppercut/ upper thrust first with a stomp and then a feeling of expansion from the feet all the way up through the torso and arm. Executed correctly, the power from this is huge.

 

[Cirdan]

I think the point was that you couldn't perform a kick with so much weight preloaded on the front kick without making a weight shift of some type which seems true enough to me.

Cirdan said "With practice you can push off the floor with the front foot foot as you raise the leg, perform the technique and return to the stance in a split second almost without moving at all."

As I read this, I'm still thinking this is a weight shift to the back foot out of necessity. Cirdan's group just practices it over and over again until they can make the adjustment adeptly.

Well we keep the back leg straight so there is no active weight shift, but natuarlly it will root you as the kick impacts. Also using the energy from pulling the leg back quickly (like you touched a hot plate) will help you not dropping on your face.

As for how effective is.. a woman half my weight stopped me dead in my tracks when she finally got it right the first time. If I had not tightened my stomach muscles I would be lying on the floor. It is also extremely quick since you don`t have to do the weight shift. What we call "empty to spring".

I use this stance all the time, having tested it against people with a variety of backgrounds (karate, kickboxing, tkd, boxing Ju Jutsu, etc) I have not found it wanting. On the other hand I wouldn`t be any good in a similar 50/50 since it is not what I train.

(edit) You are probably right about the Chinese way of doing it. I train Wado Karate, but we are outside the big orgs and have a rather big influence from Chinese systems as well.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I'd like to hear a bit more too if I am misunderstanding.

That said, some Chinese systems focus a lot on rebounding and expansion movements to create power. Maybe this is what Cirdan is alluding to? To illustrate, SahBumNimRush, you're undoubtedly familiar with Heian Godan/Pyung Ahn Oh Dan. Some groups perform the uppercut/ upper thrust first with a stomp and then a feeling of expansion from the feet all the way up through the torso and arm. Executed correctly, the power from this is huge.

Yes, the power from the rebound in the movement you are speaking of is immense. If this is what Cirdan is referring to, I think I must be missing the key of how to generate the power though.