Improving side kick

Dirty Dog

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Another thought - In order to get anywhere near that high knee chamber, it seems I have to rotate my pelvis forward. It might just be the way I'm built, but that means that it is difficult to kick with the shoulder, hip and foot on a single line. Is it just me?

Also, if it's for forms, I have another question. Do you briefly hold the kick at full extension, or not?

In TKD Poomsae, every technique should have a brief pause at the end of it.
 

Dirty Dog

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Dirty do why did you disagree with me??? It's a excellent stretch.

Because your ignorance is showing. Doing ladder stretches won't have any impact at all on AndyJeffries tweaking of some extremely fine details of his sidekick.
It's not so much that I disagree with you, per se, so much as I disagree with posting from a position of ignorance. I find it unlikely that someone with no training is going to be able to help a high Dan holder improve these details.
But hey, I'm open to having my mind changed.
So tell us, Nate, when performing a sidekick in Kukkiwon poomsae, what is the correct position for the hips, shoulders, torso and arms? Is it acceptable to rotate the kick-side shoulder forward, or does it need to be perpendicular to the floor? Do the hips need to stay aligned with the hips, or is a degree of misalignment a good idea?
Now tell us WHY you believe each of these answers to be correct.
 

Gnarlie

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In TKD Poomsae, every technique should have a brief pause at the end of it.
I would have said the same...but I have to admit, I used to do the side kick with the dropped shoulder, and in the last few years have changed to shoulder back, meaning that I have had to retrain with a completely different muscle set to bear the weight of a held side kick. I am still not where I want to be either, I have a flexibility 'blind spot' between kicking high towards 11 o'clock (ok) and 1 o'clock, (also ok). Kicking toward 12 o'clock means I lose about 20% of the height and about 50% of the power AND means I can't seem to hold the kick out as well as I would like. Improving this has been an ongoing battle of will over the last 15 years. I was OK when we could drop the shoulder and effectively kick a bit backwards.
 

Thousand Kicks

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I'll add my 2 cents.

When I first started TKD I was shown that the chamber for a side kick was with the base foot pivoted and the knee and ankle in line with the target. After that you simply extended the leg.

My current instructor chambers his side kick similar to a front kick. So, when he extends, or kicks, he pivots his base foot and extends his kick in one motion. He said he was taught that way because you get more of your body into the kick and the power has a spiral to it at the point of impact. Instead of just piercing with the kick the pivoting of the base foot is turning your kicking foot kind of like a boxer snapping his hand over at the end of a punch.
 

Dirty Dog

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I'll add my 2 cents.

When I first started TKD I was shown that the chamber for a side kick was with the base foot pivoted and the knee and ankle in line with the target. After that you simply extended the leg.

My current instructor chambers his side kick similar to a front kick. So, when he extends, or kicks, he pivots his base foot and extends his kick in one motion. He said he was taught that way because you get more of your body into the kick and the power has a spiral to it at the point of impact. Instead of just piercing with the kick the pivoting of the base foot is turning your kicking foot kind of like a boxer snapping his hand over at the end of a punch.

A valid version, and very useful for sparring. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace advocates this technique.
But this thread is specifically about the KKW version as it's performed in poomsae. This technique would not be recommended.
 

TrueJim

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Also, if it's for forms, I have another question. Do you briefly hold the kick at full extension, or not?

Speaking for myself, I find the Kyu Hung Lee videos on YouTube to be what I aspire to in terms of poomsae. For example, Taegeuk Sa Jang, about 20 seconds into the video,
There is a pause, but it's ever so slight.
 

Gnarlie

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I work closely with a member of his poomsae demo team, and next to their standard of side kick, it is clear that I am and will remain a mere mortal. They can hold that kick at that angle pretty much indefinitely.
 

Dirty Dog

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I work closely with a member of his poomsae demo team, and next to their standard of side kick, it is clear that I am and will remain a mere mortal. They can hold that kick at that angle pretty much indefinitely.

I'd say that is one difference between someone who studies the art, and someone who practices it full time as a profession.


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Buka

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In my opinion, holding a kick isn't important, nor tactically correct. The ability to strike with that kick is what matters. Maybe the only thing that matters.
 

Dirty Dog

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In my opinion, holding a kick isn't important, nor tactically correct. The ability to strike with that kick is what matters. Maybe the only thing that matters.

I don't think anybody is advocating holding the kick, except in the very specific case of KKW poonsae performance.

Which is what we're talking about here...


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Buka

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I don't think anybody is advocating holding the kick, except in the very specific case of KKW poonsae performance.

Which is what we're talking about here...

Gotcha. My bad.
 

Dirty Dog

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Gotcha. My bad.

Bad Buka! Bad! Now go sit in the corner!

The reason for the pause, in case anybody not familiar with TKD poomsae is wondering, is for the judges. "Speed hides slop" is a truism. A slight pause at the end of a technique allows the people scoring the form to really see the technique; is the knee fully extended. How's the foot position? What would be the contact point for the kick? OMG! Is he adjusting his cup???
 

RTKDCMB

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My current instructor chambers his side kick similar to a front kick. So, when he extends, or kicks, he pivots his base foot and extends his kick in one motion. He said he was taught that way because you get more of your body into the kick and the power has a spiral to it at the point of impact. Instead of just piercing with the kick the pivoting of the base foot is turning your kicking foot kind of like a boxer snapping his hand over at the end of a punch.
Something like this:


Basically the same technique we use at my school.
 

Gnarlie

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We use the chamber as that's what's required for KKW forms. This is particularly emphasised when Korean KKW instructors teach Kodeup Yeop Chagi, the double side kick at the start of Koryo - less of a chamber for the low kick but a proper rechamber is necessary before the high kick. Is this in line with other's experience?
 

TrueJim

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We use the chamber as that's what's required for KKW forms. This is particularly emphasised when Korean KKW instructors teach Kodeup Yeop Chagi, the double side kick at the start of Koryo - less of a chamber for the low kick but a proper rechamber is necessary before the high kick. Is this in line with other's experience?

I was taught that the first low kick isn't really a kick at all, even though it's called a kick. Rather, the first low kick is you hooking your foot behind the opponent's knee and pulling his knee toward you so that he'll drop toward you. Then the second kick is you kicking him as he falls toward you. I was told that that's why the rechamber is so important: it's not just a rechamber, it's actually you pulling the opponent's knee toward you to make him drop.
 

RTKDCMB

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We use the chamber as that's what's required for KKW forms. This is particularly emphasised when Korean KKW instructors teach Kodeup Yeop Chagi, the double side kick at the start of Koryo - less of a chamber for the low kick but a proper rechamber is necessary before the high kick. Is this in line with other's experience?
In Po Eun Hyung we do two full side kicks, one low, one high. When practicing double side kick in drills it is most commonly does as a low feint (with minimal chamber) followed by a re-clambering (full chamber) for the higher kick. It can also be done as a block and then a higher kick.
 

Dirty Dog

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We use the chamber as that's what's required for KKW forms. This is particularly emphasised when Korean KKW instructors teach Kodeup Yeop Chagi, the double side kick at the start of Koryo - less of a chamber for the low kick but a proper rechamber is necessary before the high kick. Is this in line with other's experience?

In one of the training videos released by the Kukkiwon, the applications section shows the first kick being used to jam a kick from your opponent.
Certainly not the only viable application for the combo, but shows why a full chamber wouldn't be necessary.


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chrispillertkd

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In Po Eun Hyung we do two full side kicks, one low, one high.

Do you have a video of this? I've never seen a version of Po-Eun with double side kicks in it and am interested in seeing what it looks like. Is the high kick added right after the pressing kick (low side kick) in movement #3?

Pax,

Chris
 
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