Punch from hip or higher?

[ChrisJ]

Most schools/styles that I've observed have punched from the hip in basic motions and forms. This makes sense because it is depicted this way in both the Kukkiwon textbook and in the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do. I imagine it is done this way because of the power generated from the hip.

However, I have also observed some cases where the fist is higher on the side, such that the forearm is parallel to the floor. I think it might be from Moo Duk Kwan teachings, but I'm not sure. I think the logic here is that the punch is faster and more direct and its force is concentrated in only one direction (as opposed to also arcing upwards). I think another advantage might be stronger and greater reach as an elbow strike for a target behind you.

Are there additional reasons to consider for choosing to do one or the other? Is this stylistic, or was the position of the fist changed at some point?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[dancingalone]

However, I have also observed some cases where the fist is higher on the side, such that the forearm is parallel to the floor. I think it might be from Moo Duk Kwan teachings, but I'm not sure. I think the logic here is that the punch is faster and more direct and its force is concentrated in only one direction (as opposed to also arcing upwards). I think another advantage might be stronger and greater reach as an elbow strike for a target behind you.

Are there additional reasons to consider for choosing to do one or the other? Is this stylistic, or was the position of the fist changed at some point?

Thanks,
Chris

Tae kwon do & tang soo do generally chamber at the hip like shotokan karate their most direct antecedent does. The Moo Duk Kwan schools I have observed similarly chamber at the hip so you've seen something different from me.

As for chambering higher at the side, you've mentioned the most common explanations. In theory, it also helps a beginner to isolate their arm and shoulder muscles more easily so they can correct their motion more easily. There are also a host of reasons for the higher chamber from the bunkai perspective, generally having to do with the higher chamber being more conducive to any number of upending motions. Karate styles that chamber high tend to have a relation to southern Chinese martial arts. I.E. Goju-ryu karate to MA from the Fukien province.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I find that my hands, in general, will either be near my hips most of the time, or raised above waist level some of the time. While I do not walk around with my hands at my belt chambered and ready to punch, I find that going from an at rest position to punching is close enough to the same dynamic.

Also, if I think that things are escalating and I need to be ready, I do bend my arms so that my hands are at roughly hip level and open. This way, I am 'ready' without appearing aggressive.

One other advantage to chambering from the hip is that it tends to help keep the elbows better controlled and has the benefit of guarding the sides.

Daniel

 

[Empty Hands]

One other advantage to chambering from the hip is that it tends to help keep the elbows better controlled and has the benefit of guarding the sides.

With the minor detriment of leaving your entire head and upper body open.

If we are talking about fighting and not forms, then the hands should never be at guard position at your side or hip. You can't possibly react fast enough to block or deflect strikes to the head when your hands are that far away. It is an invitation to disaster.

 

[granfire]

With the minor detriment of leaving your entire head and upper body open.

If we are talking about fighting and not forms, then the hands should never be at guard position at your side or hip. You can't possibly react fast enough to block or deflect strikes to the head when your hands are that far away. It is an invitation to disaster.

Well, that would be what I thought when I read the title: If in a fight you don't need to worry where to chamber, because you will be flat on the ground counting stars.

However, it makes sense in a tense situation to ready yourself without escalating the situation. A slight shift, nothing major. With a little luck you can get an attacker at least once this way and still have time to get your guard up. Or you are already halfway in guard this way, too.

I think for a beginner it helps them to get a register on where their body parts are in time and space. When I started I was fairly athletic and watched my son do the form for almost 2 month and yet, moving both arms and both legs in un-accustomed fashion made me look (and feel) like I never learned how to walk.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

With the minor detriment of leaving your entire head and upper body open.

Are you assuming that both hands are chambered at the hip at all times?

Some drills aside, this is not the case, nor is it the case in forms. In Taegeuk forms, both hands are not chambered at the hip simultaneously. Same of the Heian forms as I recall.

If we are talking about fighting and not forms, then the hands should never be at guard position at your side or hip.

It isn't a question of fighting versus forms.

Most karate and non WTF taekwondo tournaments also favor a mid to high guard, including Shotokan. Most chambers and stances are assumed to be transient positions, not rigidly held positions. Thus throwing a punch from the hip does not preclude the other hand being up and guarding.

WTF is the only rule-set where a low guard is favored due to the fact that the majority of your attacks are kicks and punches to the head are prohibited.

When competing in WTF tourny, I tend to maintain a midline guard, the leading hand higher, the rear hand lower. High enough to defend the head, low enough to defend the body.

You can't possibly react fast enough to block or deflect strikes to the head when your hands are that far away. It is an invitation to disaster.

Unless you go through daily living with your hands held in a boxing or mid-line guard, your hands are at your sides and most of your upper body and head is open.

Just like ring fighting, hand position is dictated by the rule-set of the environment. Even when walking through the bad part of town one does not walk with their hands up in a boxing guard. Doing so will get you hassled and quite possibly precipitate challenges and get you into a fight.

Certainly, if a situation escalates into physical violence, I do not advocate (nor do karate based styles teach) fighting with both hands at the sides or in a low guard (WTF tournament not withstanding).

Daniel

 

[ChrisJ]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I did find the following image which may help clarify. Notice that the fist is well above the belt. I found similar images associated with Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Vol. 1 book, suggesting this may indeed be a Moo Duk Kwan thing (or at least used to be).

Does anyone currently use this high fist position? Or was anyone instructed to do it in the past?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Kingtkd]

If you want to learn how to properly use your hands take up boxing.
Mix it in with various blocking techniques. WHAM BAM!!! your hands become useful.

 

[Empty Hands]

Does anyone currently use this high fist position? Or was anyone instructed to do it in the past?

Shaolin Kenpo (USSD) teaches this sort of chamber.

 

[ChrisJ]

With the minor detriment of leaving your entire head and upper body open.

If we are talking about fighting and not forms, then the hands should never be at guard position at your side or hip. You can't possibly react fast enough to block or deflect strikes to the head when your hands are that far away. It is an invitation to disaster.

I agree with this statement, but that's why I emphasized as basic motions and forms. A front stance and horse stance may not have much benefit in fighting either, but they do strengthen the legs and increase flexibility which do improve fighting skills. Likewise, bringing the fist to the hip (or side) when performing a technique helps one to utilize push-pull in order to increase power while staying balanced and not over-extending. While likely not done to the same degree during a fight, these concepts can improve fighting skills. And of course practicing a palkup dwiro chigi (elbow to a target behind you) with every punch is an added bonus for self defense. The question here -- does one get a better benefit from the fist at the hip or at the side?

-Chris

 

[dancingalone]

The question here -- does one get a better benefit from the fist at the hip or at the side?

-Chris

Answering from the Goju-ryu perspective, the higher chamber is preferred. It uses and activates the triceps muscle more, which is often ignored in modern martial arts training. The type of Goju I practice considers the development of the triceps and latissimus dorsi ("lats") muscles important for some of the counters studied in our kata.

I'm inclined to believe that many of the idiosyncrasies in our martial arts are chalked up to tradition when frequently there were very good reasons for their inclusion in the first place.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I did find the following image which may help clarify. Notice that the fist is well above the belt. I found similar images associated with Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Vol. 1 book, suggesting this may indeed be a Moo Duk Kwan thing (or at least used to be).

Does anyone currently use this high fist position? Or was anyone instructed to do it in the past?

Thanks,
Chris

This is a front stance with punches alternating from the hips seen in drills in Shotokan, Taekwondo, and Tangsudo. This is a variation of the hip chamber. The hands are held higher but still to the body above the hips.

You would not fight in this manner in any of those styles.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

This is a front stance with punches alternating from the hips seen in drills in Shotokan, Taekwondo, and Tangsudo. This is a variation of the hip chamber. The hands are held higher but still to the body above the hips.

Daniel

Yes. But the explanation above, engaging the triceps more with the higher chamber does indeed make sense. A quick test sitting at the desk does make me feel the little difference.

I think I have seen the (exact) forms done with either, hip chamber or higher, I think at least at ITA level it's personal preference from the instructors of the school.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you want to learn how to properly use your hands take up boxing.
Mix it in with various blocking techniques. WHAM BAM!!! your hands become useful.

Or find a taekwondo school that doesn't focus on WTF sport.

Karate based styles offer a wealth of hand techniques, but WTF schools do not focus on any of them because the rule set bars all but one punch and a couple of blocks.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes. But the explanation above, engaging the triceps more with the higher chamber does indeed make sense. A quick test sitting at the desk does make me feel the little difference.

I think I have seen the (exact) forms done with either, hip chamber or higher, I think at least at ITA level it's personal preference from the instructors of the school.

Absolutely. That is why it is used in drills. Same with the chamber held at the hips, though that tends to use more triceps/pecs than triceps/lats. Both versions also engage forearm muscles in the course of the rotation. The front stance is utilized in drills to build up the legs. The same drill is done in Shotokan, though a deeper stance is favored because it builds more leg strength and stretches the legs more.

Neither version of what is pictured (front stance hands at base of ribs or front stance hands at hips), shallow or deep stance, is intended for use as a default fighting position.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

My school is from the Moo Duk Kwan lineage, and my GM use to teach us this style and he still does this style, so yes it is Moo Duk Kwan. However my GM is nolonger my instructor, and because of the KKW and WTF poomsae we now teach to punch from the hip and have the students place the hands on the belt.

Even though I have to teach the KKW way I still find myself with my hand high, about center rib cage from time to time (muscle memory I guess). Not only was the hand held higher but also further back as well. I know that my GM hates the KKW way of doing forms and even the blocks as he feels that they are weaker and not being used as a strike.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Chris,

What is the context in which this stance and chamber was used in class?

Daniel

 

[ChrisJ]

Chris,

What is the context in which this stance and chamber was used in class?

Daniel

I was watching forms in competition, and noticed some cases where fist placement was higher. I was just curious why there was a difference or why it might have changed.

-Chris

 

[ChrisJ]

My school is from the Moo Duk Kwan lineage, and my GM use to teach us this style and he still does this style, so yes it is Moo Duk Kwan. However my GM is nolonger my instructor, and because of the KKW and WTF poomsae we now teach to punch from the hip and have the students place the hands on the belt.

Even though I have to teach the KKW way I still find myself with my hand high, about center rib cage from time to time (muscle memory I guess). Not only was the hand held higher but also further back as well. I know that my GM hates the KKW way of doing forms and even the blocks as he feels that they are weaker and not being used as a strike.

Thanks ATC. So what have you thought about the changes? Do you feel it has more power from the hip? If scores in poomsae competition and kukkiwon grading were not a factor, would you advocate one chamber over the other?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

According to ATC, it is MDK, though other styles may use it as well. Wouldn't surprise me if TSD used it too, as MDK was TSD before splitting (Hwang Kee's group remaining TSD and the half that went with the Kukkiwon being TKD).

Dancingalone gave probably the best illustration of the closer to the ribs versus closer to the belt difference. Personally, I view them both as being essentially the same. Kind of like doing bench presses at different angles, you engage the muscles differently, but you're still doing bench presses. I don't really see any practical or substantive benefit of one over the other in terms of practical use.

Keep in mind that forms serve multiple purposes, including strengthening the body, movement, various stances, transitioning between stances, and the practice of specific techniques.

Forms are not meant to be done alone and in karate based styles (TKD, TSD, etc.) they are to be augmented with both step sparring and free sparring, specific drills, and application of the forms (bunkai/bunhae).

In competition, forms are further removed because the competitors are trying to impress the judges, and may do the form in ways that not technically correct, but popular with the judges at a given time or at a given tournament (some TKD judges give high marks for near vertical kicks, even if the form calls for a low or mid-line kick).

I am sure that if they had sparring at these same competitions the sparring looked markedly different than the execution of forms.

Daniel