Last Poster #7

[Flying Crane]

the original Walker was quite bad
but in the homey way those 80s and 90s crime shows were. (heck, the 'edgy' NYPD Blue is Saturday morning cartoons!)

I am not a fan of Chuck Norris, in any way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not a fan of Chuck Norris, in any way.

et tu Xuefu number 2

 

[granfire]

Never watched Walker, but I did watch the A Team. Went back and watched a few episodes, and you know, the show holds up pretty well. Another old show that is still really fun to watch is Wonder Woman. Magnum PI... the old one... is still quite fun to watch, too.

have not come across WW lately.
LOVED the A-Team. I tried to catch it every time it came on.
(that and Rip Tide...)

 

[Dirty Dog]

One photo from yesterday. Tower Arch. This place is filled with amazing stone formations, including dozens of these arches. And all shaped by wind

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am not a fan of Chuck Norris, in any way.

I think he’s a top notch martial artist. As an actor… not so much, even if we’re just comparing him to other martial arts action stars.

I read his autobiography a while back. He talked about taking an acting class and then walking out during a session when the students gave feedback on each other’s performances and never going back. (He quoted himself as saying something like “the instructor can criticize me because he’s a real actor, but you’re just another student so I don’t have to listen to you.”)

I think this sort of attitude is why he never became a good actor. He wasn’t willing to devote himself to the craft the way he did to his martial arts. Then again, he was able to make a good living as a terrible actor, so I’m sure he couldn’t care less what people like myself think about his skills as a thespian.

What I don’t understand is why his fight scenes aren’t better done. I liked them when I was a teenager and didn’t have much to compare them to. But for such a skilled martial artist, his fight choreography isn’t particularly impressive. And if you compare them to the fight scenes of people like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa or the lesser known guys like James Young (fight choreographer and stunt double for movies like Captain America: Winter Soldier), his fight scenes look downright amateurish.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think he’s a top notch martial artist. As an actor… not so much, even if we’re just comparing him to other martial arts action stars.

I read his autobiography a while back. He talked about taking an acting class and then walking out during a session when the students gave feedback on each other’s performances and never going back. (He quoted himself as saying something like “the instructor can criticize me because he’s a real actor, but you’re just another student so I don’t have to listen to you.”)

I think this sort of attitude is why he never became a good actor. He wasn’t willing to devote himself to the craft the way he did to his martial arts. Then again, he was able to make a good living as a terrible actor, so I’m sure he couldn’t care less what people like myself think about his skills as a thespian.

What I don’t understand is why his fight scenes aren’t better done. I liked them when I was a teenager and didn’t have much to compare them to. But for such a skilled martial artist, his fight choreography isn’t particularly impressive. And if you compare them to the fight scenes of people like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa or the lesser known guys like James Young (fight choreographer and stunt double for movies like Captain America: Winter Soldier), his fight scenes look downright amateurish.

Agreed, and yet he was one of the most successful MA actors there was. And to be honest, I do enjoy many of his movies, he is doing what he does best as an actor.

I saw an interview with Charles Bronson once, and the interview asked him why he made so many violent movies...Bronson's response was "Because no one would pay to see Chearles Boronsin does Hamlet", I think you have the same with Norris, if it ain't broke, don't fix it,

Also with some of his fight scenes, you need to consider his age when he made them too

 

[Xue Sheng]

And now for something completely different. I am having Mrs Xue's homemade Baozi (meat baozi and vegetable baozi) for lunch. She made a whole lot of them, been eating them for days and I just can't get enough of them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What I don’t understand is why his fight scenes aren’t better done. I liked them when I was a teenager and didn’t have much to compare them to. But for such a skilled martial artist, his fight choreography isn’t particularly impressive. And if you compare them to the fight scenes of people like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa or the lesser known guys like James Young (fight choreographer and stunt double for movies like Captain America: Winter Soldier), his fight scenes look downright amateurish.

A note on this I forgot to mention. A lot of Western based martial arts films had a problem with Martial arts actors from China and East Asia. They are to fast, they asked Bruce Lee to slow down for Kato in Batman and Jet Li was told to slow down more than once too. Admittedly they are getting better, but back then, to much speed was a problem and they couldn't track it

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Was shadowboxing yesterday, and realized I've been doing just muay thai strikes-meaning for the most part basic jab/cross/hook/uppercut/leg kicks/roundhouse kick/teep/knees. At some point I assimilated and started just sticking to those. So swapped my shadowboxing to anything but muay thai strikes. No one said anything but I'm sure it looked bizarre to all of them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Was shadowboxing yesterday, and realized I've been doing just muay thai strikes-meaning for the most part basic jab/cross/hook/uppercut/leg kicks/roundhouse kick/teep/knees. At some point I assimilated and started just sticking to those. So swapped my shadowboxing to anything but muay thai strikes. No one said anything but I'm sure it looked bizarre to all of them.

Try Guard, turn Parry, dodge spin ha thrust

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also with some of his fight scenes, you need to consider his age when he made them too

That's a fair point for his Walker Texas Ranger scenes, since he started playing that role at age 53. Even so, my criticisms would be more with the choreography than with him no longer so many athletic moves.

A note on this I forgot to mention. A lot of Western based martial arts films had a problem with Martial arts actors from China and East Asia. They are to fast, they asked Bruce Lee to slow down for Kato in Batman and Jet Li was told to slow down more than once too. Admittedly they are getting better, but back then, to much speed was a problem and they couldn't track it

I think part of the issue is that the state of the art for Hollywood fight choreography when Norris was making movies just wasn't nearly at the level that it was in Hong Kong cinema back then or that we have in Hollywood now. They might also not have had as much time and budget set aside for developing the fight scenes.

Just for fun, I went to YouTube and pulled up a couple of fight scenes for comparison.

Silent Rage, made by Norris when he was 42. I remember watching and enjoying it when I was 18.

No long cuts. Norris's face is hidden every time he throws a high kick. (Normally this would indicate the use of a stuntman, but I can't imagine why Norris would have needed a stuntman to do kicks for him at only age 42, so I'll just chalk that up to the choreography.) Lots of action obfuscated by the lighting, camera angles, or unnecessary cuts. The action is a bit slow, but that may have been deliberate to let audiences see things better.

Man Of Tai Chi, made by Keanu Reeves at age 49. I chose this rather than one of the Matrix or John Wick movies because it was a smaller movie that wouldn't have had the budget for choreographing fight scenes that those larger franchises would have had. Adjusted for inflation, it had a budget slightly smaller than that of Silent Rage. (Man of Tai Chi was made in 2013 for $25 million. Silent Rage was made in 1982 for $4 million, which would be $30 million in 2013 dollars.)

Plenty of longer cuts showing multiple techniques. More complex and varied techniques. You can see Keanu's face during most of the action, including when he is kicking. You can see most of the action clearly. I'd deduct some points for the use of wire work, but that's my personal taste. The speed is comparable to that in Norris's scene, but that might be less for audience expectations and more because Keanu was 49 and not a martial artist anywhere near Norris's level. I'd rate this scene as noticeably better than Norris's, but tastes may differ. But with Norris's martial skill, I would expect him to be able to put together a better scene than Keanu Reeves, who is primarily an actor.

Now, let's take a look at a 56 year old Donnie Yen in Ip Man 4.

Objectively better in just about every way by miles. Just no comparison. The only thing I can say in Norris's defense is that he was probably working with regular stunt performers, while Donnie Yen was working with another high-level martial artist. I'd pull up another Ip Man scene where he beats up on a bunch of mooks, but even in those scenes Yen was probably working with high-level stunt fighters.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's a fair point for his Walker Texas Ranger scenes, since he started playing that role at age 53. Even so, my criticisms would be more with the choreography than with him no longer so many athletic moves.

I think part of the issue is that the state of the art for Hollywood fight choreography when Norris was making movies just wasn't nearly at the level that it was in Hong Kong cinema back then or that we have in Hollywood now. They might also not have had as much time and budget set aside for developing the fight scenes.

Just for fun, I went to YouTube and pulled up a couple of fight scenes for comparison.

Silent Rage, made by Norris when he was 42. I remember watching and enjoying it when I was 18.

No long cuts. Norris's face is hidden every time he throws a high kick. (Normally this would indicate the use of a stuntman, but I can't imagine why Norris would have needed a stuntman to do kicks for him at only age 42, so I'll just chalk that up to the choreography.) Lots of action obfuscated by the lighting, camera angles, or unnecessary cuts. The action is a bit slow, but that may have been deliberate to let audiences see things better.

Man Of Tai Chi, made by Keanu Reeves at age 49. I chose this rather than one of the Matrix or John Wick movies because it was a smaller movie that wouldn't have had the budget for choreographing fight scenes that those larger franchises would have had. Adjusted for inflation, it had a budget slightly smaller than that of Silent Rage. (Man of Tai Chi was made in 2013 for $25 million. Silent Rage was made in 1982 for $4 million, which would be $30 million in 2013 dollars.)

Plenty of longer cuts showing multiple techniques. More complex and varied techniques. You can see Keanu's face during most of the action, including when he is kicking. You can see most of the action clearly. I'd deduct some points for the use of wire work, but that's my personal taste. The speed is comparable to that in Norris's scene, but that might be less for audience expectations and more because Keanu was 49 and not a martial artist anywhere near Norris's level. I'd rate this scene as noticeably better than Norris's, but tastes may differ. But with Norris's martial skill, I would expect him to be able to put together a better scene than Keanu Reeves, who is primarily an actor.

Now, let's take a look at a 56 year old Donnie Yen in Ip Man 4.

Objectively better in just about every way by miles. Just no comparison. The only thing I can say in Norris's defense is that he was probably working with regular stunt performers, while Donnie Yen was working with another high-level martial artist. I'd pull up another Ip Man scene where he beats up on a bunch of mooks, but even in those scenes Yen was probably working with high-level stunt fighters.

None of them had a knee replaced, possibly 2 knees replaced, Norris did. But I am not arguing, he does use a stunt man, or at least he did in a lot of Walker

As for Donnie Yen, He impresses the heck out of the folks in Hong Kong. There are a few MA actors in Hong Kong that pick him as the person they would least like to mess with. Heck even Mike Tyson says Donnie Yen really knows how to hit. Yen has trained multiple arts since he was very young, his mother, Bow-sim Mark, even ran (runs) an martial arts school in Boston

 

[Xue Sheng]

Donnie Yen, his mother and sister

 

[Flying Crane]

I think he’s a top notch martial artist. As an actor… not so much, even if we’re just comparing him to other martial arts action stars.

I read his autobiography a while back. He talked about taking an acting class and then walking out during a session when the students gave feedback on each other’s performances and never going back. (He quoted himself as saying something like “the instructor can criticize me because he’s a real actor, but you’re just another student so I don’t have to listen to you.”)

I think this sort of attitude is why he never became a good actor. He wasn’t willing to devote himself to the craft the way he did to his martial arts. Then again, he was able to make a good living as a terrible actor, so I’m sure he couldn’t care less what people like myself think about his skills as a thespian.

What I don’t understand is why his fight scenes aren’t better done. I liked them when I was a teenager and didn’t have much to compare them to. But for such a skilled martial artist, his fight choreography isn’t particularly impressive. And if you compare them to the fight scenes of people like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa or the lesser known guys like James Young (fight choreographer and stunt double for movies like Captain America: Winter Soldier), his fight scenes look downright amateurish.

Honestly, I can’t see past his politics. That’s where I lost all respect for him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

None of them had a knee replaced, possibly 2 knees replaced, Norris did. But I am not arguing, he does use a stunt man, or at least he did in a lot of Walker

Yeah, I expect that he would have used a stuntman during Walker, especially in the later years when he would have been getting up around 60. But I wouldn't have thought he would need one at age 42 just to throw kicks for him, unless that was when he had his knee replacement. I'm about to turn 59 and I can still throw head kicks. (Although now I need to warm up before throwing fast kicks to head height. I used to be able to do it without warming up.)

As for Donnie Yen, He impresses the heck out of the folks in Hong Kong.

Donnie Yen is particularly impressive because he's a solid actor as well as being one of the best screen martial artists/fight choreographers out there. If you were to rank action stars using the formula ActionStardom = ActingAbility + RealFightingAbility + FightSceneChoreography, then he'd have to be near the top.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Honestly, I can’t see past his politics. That’s where I lost all respect for him.

Yeah, I'm very much not a fan of Chuck Norris's politics. But I can respect him as a martial artist. (Likewise, I'm not a fan of Donnie Yen's politics, but I can respect him as an actor and martial artist.)

Since this is a forum for martial arts and not politics, I'm just reacting to that side of him here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

hmmm a political discussion....this is where I get off...TTFN

 

[Steve]

Fight choreography seems like something that continues to evolve. I think Donnie Yen's fight scenes are great. John Wick 1 through 3 were also terrific... the last one was a little bit of a step back, IMO, but overall, the series has been solid.

I think CG is just much better, so film makers can fill in gaps where they once couldn't. Actors are generally in much better shape now, too. Both the stunt guys and also the stars themselves. And the cameras and equipment can just do a better job of recording the action... along with all the tools that editors have in post production.

All of that just adds up to the ability to create much more dynamic and interesting fight scenes for less money.

 

[granfire]

On a brighter note Zuckerberg won gold and silver at a BJJ tournament.
CNN said so, it must be true.
Then again - he would be in the old folks bracket, I am sure.
I \managed to win something there, back in the day!

 

[Xue Sheng]

On a brighter note Zuckerberg won gold and silver at a BJJ tournament.
CNN said so, it must be true.
Then again - he would be in the old folks bracket, I am sure.
I \managed to win something there, back in the day!

OK, now its my turn... I am not a fan of Mark Zuckerberg. That is true by the way....

wait... he won gold AND silver.... what did he do defeat himself in the last round..... how does that work!?