Has MMA popularity helped or hurt the MA Community?

[tellner]

Tez, watch any football (football, not hand egg) game when the teams line up for penalty kicks. Guys instinctively guard the Franks and Beans with an instinct honed through millions of years of evolution. The ones who didn't didn't have descendants

 

[MJS]

I doubt you will find many MMA practitioners that will tell you it will never be effective, it can be, there is a reason strikes to the spine are disallowed.

You're right. Theres a laundry list of things that're not allowed. However, that doesn't mean those same things couldn't be trained for a street situation.

What you will hear is that it is a unreliable technique, and you are far better off using higher percentage defenses as attempting the elbow will more often then not end up with you on your back, and getting there with a pretty hard impact as to do it you put your weight over the guy shootings shoulders, allowing a easy lift and slam.

Higher percentage for who? You? Me? See, this is why I don't like to use that term....because its so open ended. People talk about these 'high percentage' moves, as if they're the gosple of things to do in the ring. Fact is, what is 'high percentage' for you, may not be for me, and this is due to many reasons. Yet how many times do people assume that because they see Rickson or any other fighter do something, they assume it'll work for them?

In the example that I pointed to though, you had Jimmy, who is a MMA fighter, attempt a double leg, and it was countered with the elbow.

 

[shaolin_al]

It has both helped and hurt the MA community. Every guy now thinks he is the next GSP and are packing into MMA gyms. The good traditional martial arts teachers are having to close shop and teach from home if at all. MMA is not totally to blame for this as the economy doesn't help either but it is still a problem. MMA has become its own system of techniques and can be trained for street. Fighters like Lyoto Machida who have a traditional arts background and who finds success in UFC get fans interested again in traditional styles. So it goes back and forth. That's just my two cents.

 

[Tez3]

It has both helped and hurt the MA community. Every guy now thinks he is the next GSP and are packing into MMA gyms. The good traditional martial arts teachers are having to close shop and teach from home if at all. MMA is not totally to blame for this as the economy doesn't help either but it is still a problem. MMA has become its own system of techniques and can be trained for street. Fighters like Lyoto Machida who have a traditional arts background and who finds success in UFC get fans interested again in traditional styles. So it goes back and forth. That's just my two cents.

I wish that were true! The recession has hit everyone and disposable income is less so MMA gyms/clubs are finding it hard as well as promotions trying to sell tickets. The number of tradtional martial arts classes here hasn't changed, they far outnumber MMA ones which I can probably recite off to you now lol, we don't have that many.

 

[qwksilver61]

While I do have certain respect for the art and their Instructors...I do not like the self-centered cocky-a@#*holes and their friends that I occasionally run into that are quick to put it to the test,all for the sake of being a big badass.
Sad but true.....someone gets a morsel..they want the whole cake!
I am sure though that there are legit schools in the area with some code of conduct,of course you will get some bad apples too....so hey that would be 50/50

 

[Tez3]

While I do have certain respect for the art and their Instructors...I do not like the self-centered cocky-a@#*holes and their friends that I occasionally run into that are quick to put it to the test,all for the sake of being a big badass.
Sad but true.....someone gets a morsel..they want the whole cake!
I am sure though that there are legit schools in the area with some code of conduct,of course you will get some bad apples too....so hey that would be 50/50

That goes for the TMA places as well though, it's human nature not the style.
Those cocky whatsits would be that whatever style they did or even if they did none, not MMA's fault they are like that. They could pick Muay Thai and be like that, or karate or TKD etc. More to do with the way they've been brought up than what they may train ( I'm betting though they don't train MMA just mess around at home)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That goes for the TMA places as well though, it's human nature not the style.
Those cocky whatsits would be that whatever style they did or even if they did none, not MMA's fault they are like that. They could pick Muay Thai and be like that, or karate or TKD etc. More to do with the way they've been brought up than what they may train ( I'm betting though they don't train MMA just mess around at home)

true to a degree but it depends on the TMA I believe. If an arrogant , cocky bloke started at my club he wouldnt last long, they have usually left by yellow belt as our instructors dont care for it at all. If word got back to our GM or one of the instructors that a member of our club was out on weekends picking fights, showing off, big noting themselves etc , the outcome would not be good. The tenants of our martial art clearly state that this behaviour is unacceptable. I cant speak on behalf of all clubs, but where I train there are over 4000 students and probably 200 of them are blackbelts and I can honestly say that I am yet to meet more than 1 or 2 of those black belts who I would regard as having an attitute problem because those who do get sorted out very quickly. In saying all this Im not saying its any better or worse in MMA, Im just saying that not all TMA clubs have these sorts of problems.

 

[Tez3]

true to a degree but it depends on the TMA I believe. If an arrogant , cocky bloke started at my club he wouldnt last long, they have usually left by yellow belt as our instructors dont care for it at all. If word got back to our GM or one of the instructors that a member of our club was out on weekends picking fights, showing off, big noting themselves etc , the outcome would not be good. The tenants of our martial art clearly state that this behaviour is unacceptable. I cant speak on behalf of all clubs, but where I train there are over 4000 students and probably 200 of them are blackbelts and I can honestly say that I am yet to meet more than 1 or 2 of those black belts who I would regard as having an attitute problem because those who do get sorted out very quickly. In saying all this Im not saying its any better or worse in MMA, Im just saying that not all TMA clubs have these sorts of problems.

What makes you think anyone would survive being cocky in an MMA place? It's actually the last place you would be able to do this. The problem as I read it was that these people were cocky outside of training as the poster didn't train with them. You have no control over the behaviour of your students outside training you know, you may not even know what they are doing or saying, they could be equally cocky.

I never said that all TMA places have these problems but it seems harder for people to accept that all MMA places don't either. the perception people have of MMA is taken from the television and the fans not the actual fighters.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What makes you think anyone would survive being cocky in an MMA place? It's actually the last place you would be able to do this. The problem as I read it was that these people were cocky outside of training as the poster didn't train with them. You have no control over the behaviour of your students outside training you know, you may not even know what they are doing or saying, they could be equally cocky.

I never said that all TMA places have these problems but it seems harder for people to accept that all MMA places don't either. the perception people have of MMA is taken from the television and the fans not the actual fighters.

you'll note in my last post that I made a point that I was not saying that it was any better or worse in MMA. I was not insinuating that its any different from mma to tma.

 

[Tez3]

you'll note in my last post that I made a point that I was not saying that it was any better or worse in MMA. I was not insinuating that its any different from mma to tma.

and I never said all TMA places were like that!

 

[sgtmac_46]

That goes for the TMA places as well though, it's human nature not the style.
Those cocky whatsits would be that whatever style they did or even if they did none, not MMA's fault they are like that. They could pick Muay Thai and be like that, or karate or TKD etc. More to do with the way they've been brought up than what they may train ( I'm betting though they don't train MMA just mess around at home)

The only difference is that the cocky MMA guys will actually put it to a test.......often times the cocky TMA guys will simply make statements they have no intention of backing up about what they could do.......if the conditions were just right for it........though never right now.

 

[Steve]

I think it may have showed (to some degree) which martial arts work in a sport setting, as that is what 'events' such as these show, but not everybody wants to learn a 'martial sport'. I dont really think it showed much at all as far as what supposedly "doesnt work" because people of varying skill levels entered these events , particularly in the early days. For instance, royce gracie was a very elite bjj fighter , he was one of the best there was going around but I am not aware of too many other traditional martial arts that were represented by the best that art had to offer. Some of the footage Ive seen of apparant kung fu, tkd, karate etc practioners shows nothing more than some very average practitioners of these arts , surely no one I would consider "elite" in their field.

Just in the interest of keeping it real, Royce was chosen specifcially because he wasn't the top jitsuka in the Gracie family at the time. No slouch by any means, but not the Gracie family's best, either. The strategy was to show a guy who was visibly smaller than his opponents and very mild looking. Worked, too. If a guy yoked up like Rickson with his vale tudo experience had gone in, he would have looked very much like Ken Shamrock and the other huge wrestlers, sambo experts and shoot fighters.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just in the interest of keeping it real, Royce was chosen specifcially because he wasn't the top jitsuka in the Gracie family at the time. No slouch by any means, but not the Gracie family's best, either. The strategy was to show a guy who was visibly smaller than his opponents and very mild looking. Worked, too. If a guy yoked up like Rickson with his vale tudo experience had gone in, he would have looked very much like Ken Shamrock and the other huge wrestlers, sambo experts and shoot fighters.

Quite true, but Royce was still considered "elite" by BJJ standards. I could be wrong but I dont think many other arts were represented by their elite fighters. I know for a fact that no one of any significance in tkd entered, thats not to say they would have won but I surely cant base any opinions on what works and what doesnt unless elite fighters from all arts compete. The TMA guys who entered were laughable, I doubt those guys even had a black belt in their art let alone any sort of track history of being an elite fighter.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The only difference is that the cocky MMA guys will actually put it to a test.......often times the cocky TMA guys will simply make statements they have no intention of backing up about what they could do.......if the conditions were just right for it........though never right now.

I dont really see your point. Yes, the cocky MMA guys will actually put it to a test, against other MMA guys in a sports setting within their rule set just as cocky TMA guys put it to a test against other people of their art within their ruleset. If you're suggesting that cocky MMA guys go aout and get in fights to "make a statement" then the same can be said of some cocky TMA guys. Suggesting that MMA guys are more likely to back up their statements just seems absurd.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I dont really see your point. Yes, the cocky MMA guys will actually put it to a test, against other MMA guys in a sports setting within their rule set just as cocky TMA guys put it to a test against other people of their art within their ruleset. If you're suggesting that cocky MMA guys go aout and get in fights to "make a statement" then the same can be said of some cocky TMA guys. Suggesting that MMA guys are more likely to back up their statements just seems absurd.

I'm quite confident that one can find more MMA guys willing to test their skills under the least restrictive rules possible than TMA guys. That kind of goes without saying.

And the point there is that there's cocky......and then there's being willing to back it up. I have to respect someone who, when push comes to shove, is willing to put up or shut up........that's really all i'm saying.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Quite true, but Royce was still considered "elite" by BJJ standards. I could be wrong but I dont think many other arts were represented by their elite fighters. I know for a fact that no one of any significance in tkd entered, thats not to say they would have won but I surely cant base any opinions on what works and what doesnt unless elite fighters from all arts compete. The TMA guys who entered were laughable, I doubt those guys even had a black belt in their art let alone any sort of track history of being an elite fighter.

There was nothing stopping them then or now........but when it's all said and done, it's easier to say than do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There was nothing stopping them then or now........but when it's all said and done, it's easier to say than do.

You are assuming that everybody wants to fight competitively. Many of these guys have nothing to prove. They know what they know and dont feel the need to prove it to anybody, I really dont think they care what other people think, and if because of this people choose to label them 'scared' or 'unable to back up their statements' then good for them. I certainly dont go through my life worried about what others think, and I assume many others are the same, so many would not see the point of having to prove anything. Ive seen high ranking martial artists defending themselves and I am well aware of their capabilities. The key difference is that BJJ did have something to prove, and they did. People saw first hand how effective it is and its grown in popularity since and has made a lot of money for those involved.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm quite confident that one can find more MMA guys willing to test their skills under the least restrictive rules possible than TMA guys. That kind of goes without saying.

And the point there is that there's cocky......and then there's being willing to back it up. I have to respect someone who, when push comes to shove, is willing to put up or shut up........that's really all i'm saying.

Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, but its just that, your opinion. I believe that it is a broad sweeping generalisation. I know many TMA guys who love to get it on and do so regularly and do quite well. I also know that it comes a lot down to the personality of the practitioner. Some of the toughest guys I know take a hell of a lot to get them to fight, you could spit in their face and they will just turn the other cheek and walk away, but if hit them they will tear you apart. Fighting is, and always should be, your last resort, anyone who has to fight to "prove a point" really needs to see a psycologist in my opinion.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You are assuming that everybody wants to fight competitively. Many of these guys have nothing to prove. They know what they know and dont feel the need to prove it to anybody, I really dont think they care what other people think, and if because of this people choose to label them 'scared' or 'unable to back up their statements' then good for them. I certainly dont go through my life worried about what others think, and I assume many others are the same, so many would not see the point of having to prove anything. Ive seen high ranking martial artists defending themselves and I am well aware of their capabilities. The key difference is that BJJ did have something to prove, and they did. People saw first hand how effective it is and its grown in popularity since and has made a lot of money for those involved.

Like I said, when it's all said and done, there's usually more said than done. The Martial Arts are about actions. If it was pure philosophy then mere words would suffice.

When, however, one is claiming the superiority of efficiency of a given physical act, asking them to prove it isn't outside the reasonable.

What's more, it's only been in very recent times that asking someone to prove it has been dismissed. The TMA's of even the recent past is replete with examples of 'challenge matches' to test one's skills.

The 'I'm really good..........but I have nothing to prove' phenomenon is a very recent invention. And, it might be quite reasonable..........until the discussion becomes 'what is effective'..............and it seems a bit absurd for some folks to claim their skills are effective, but simultaneously proclaiming they are under no obligation to prove it.

You are right, of course, that this is merely my humble opinion........other's mileage may vary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, but its just that, your opinion. I believe that it is a broad sweeping generalisation. I know many TMA guys who love to get it on and do so regularly and do quite well. I also know that it comes a lot down to the personality of the practitioner. Some of the toughest guys I know take a hell of a lot to get them to fight, you could spit in their face and they will just turn the other cheek and walk away, but if hit them they will tear you apart. Fighting is, and always should be, your last resort, anyone who has to fight to "prove a point" really needs to see a psycologist in my opinion.

Again, I disagree........human aggression is a natural thing, and male ritual hiearchical combat is perfectly normal.

Fighting outside of that limited societally acceptable sphere is considered taboo, but not really abnormal.