MT and other ma's in MMA

[adboxerz28]

Ok I know this subject has been beat over many times so I will try to make this post somewhat original.

I'm a little frustrated with the muay thai that you see in mma matches which looks more like kick boxing than anything, I see alot of mma fighters that say they have years in muay thai training but I don't see any muay thai techniques whatsoever all I see is boxing with a few leg kicks. It seems mma has almost become its own martial art in which everyone in the sport trains in a western version of "muay thai" and BJJ. Don't get me wrong I love mma but thats all it seems to be nowadays, which is pretty basic stuff. My first question is, is there a reason why traditional muay thai techniques are not used in mma or even other forms of ma like shaolin kung fu are never practiced in mma. I understand mma fighters train and fight on a regular basis as opposed to many ma's and I understand to survive in the ufc and such you must cross train and get yourself a ground game, however why does it seem so limited to a westernized version of MT and BJJ. Did other ma's just not work or do the practicioners (talkin master level) not care enough to bother with mma competitions.

For example someone fully trained in other ma's like muay boran, lethwei, kung fu and others (i know a little over the top) you would think they would be superior to a regular mma fighter no? I know alot of the techniques used in those martial arts would by no means be allowed in an mma competition, but people that train every day in such brutal ma's would definately have that physique and toughness needed to compete in mma competitions. Add the fact that they are superior arts I don't see an mma fighter having much of a chance. Again this is completely hypothetical and probably not realistic because so far we haven't seen any hard evidence of this I just can't figure out why, and I can't accept the fact that these mma guys would be the best fighters in the world. Although I do understand mma is a sport and they are trained in that sport and a traditional ma or even combat artist is not trained in that sport but in combat so with certain rules it can make for different outcomes.

 

[Andrew Green]

MMA fighters use what works in that environment. And yes, that means what is essentially a modified version of Muay Thai for stand up work. "Straight" Muay Thai will not work, The 4 oz gloves make punching much more dangerous so thehands have to come in. Takedowns make kicks, esspecially high ones less common. The weight has to be a little more evenly distributed rather then mostly on the back leg for the same reason.

Western BJJ? A good number of the fighters are Brazillian, a good number of those that aren't train under a Brazillian. Plus there are all the western wrestlers, and a few that have catch based wresting.

Other styles don't show up anymore because well, they don't work all that well in there. SOme of them tried in the beginning, (back in the "no rules" days) but the fighters got beat and either changed there training or stopped competing.

Now why do you assume they are "superior arts?"

 

[adboxerz28]

Superior in the sense some of those were combat arts and used to win battles. I suppose mma training is the way it is because its mma therefore even if something is more brutal or fancy or deadly etc. would not be as effective because thats not what its for. I guess where I'm frustrated is that I want to trian in MT but I can't seem to find anywhere that doesn't only train in the watered down mma version which (while effective for mma) is rather boring to me.

 

[Andrew Green]

Superior in the sense some of those were combat arts and used to win battles

What battles? Which armies went in and fought without weapons?

One thing you need to be careful of is not to believe the hype. Martial arts are like every other industry, what one says about ones self is almost always an exagerration, so unless every matress store has the best quality and lowest prices, someone isn't being entirely truthful

 

[zDom]

A lot of hype on either side, IMO.

But even as a traditional martial artist I wouldn't go so far as to call any one particular art "superior."

As for "other ma's just not work or do the practicioners (talkin master level) not care enough to bother with mma competitions," I think it is really a little of both.

Those who DID show up were not too effective. But then, those early UFCs were not MMA contests: they were a very-few-rules contest framed as a "style vs style" contest.

BJJ did great as it is a style that does very, very well in one-vs-one controled matchups. Once UFC evolved into an MMA event, MMA specialists have gone on to prove more than a match for pure BJJ.

It would be interesting to see if a "pure" MA stylist could do well in the current UFC. Just because it hasn't really happened yet doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think that given the nature of the competition, any pure stylist is not going to win.

I also think that given the amount of money involved any pure stylist master that had a shot at winning would go for it, or at least try to put get a student into it. But other styles are not designed for the same purpose, that being one on one unarmed fights... essentially a modern form of dueling.

BJJ is a good example there, look at how much MMA events have done to promote it as a style, I imagine most other styles wouldn't mind getting a little of that.

Did MMA evolve, you bet. It will also continue to evolve, but not at the same pace it did for the first bit.

 

[adboxerz28]

What battles? Which armies went in and fought without weapons?

Well for one Krabi-Krabong was an ancient Thai battlefield art using swords, staves, spears, and clubs. Once the weapons were lost the empty-handed techniques in KK became known as Muay Boran which later developed into its own ma.

The ancient Myanmar or burmese armies also used Lethwei and Bando to win many battles and wars.

Over many centuries shaolin monks participated in battles using different variations of kung fu.

The list goes on there were many ma's today that come from some form of combat art, and would be the reason it could be considered a superior art in a real world sense.

I think that given the nature of the competition, any pure stylist is not going to win.

But I think thats almost what mma has become its own style a hybrid of MT and BJJ, these are the only people that are really succeeding in mma and because of that all of the training is focused in pretty much the same way. I agree the fights are great and the sport has evolved with much better fighters than ever I think it is going in the direction of not really being so called mixed martial arts. Should just call it two martial arts, ok not really but doesn't it seem like the fighters in mma do not have so much actual martial arts training, meaning most of them are tough guys that want to fight so they train in todays mma which is basic MT and BJJ techniques and then just get in shape and beat the hell outta each other. So in a sense you could say mma today is its own style and the only people that are winning are pure "mma" stylists.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yup, Mixed Martial arts is now a unique fighting style. The name is odd, but then so is "Martial Arts," as most of this has nothing to do with military stuff. But we are stuck with it for now. Other names are around: Shootfighing, Pankration, freestyle fighting, etc. But "Mixed Martial Arts" is the more common.

As for the Muay Thai and battlefield, You said it yourself, the original battlefield art involved weapons. What it evolved into is not battlefield tested, it is a sport / civillian fighting art.

 

[Rook]

Well for one Krabi-Krabong was an ancient Thai battlefield art using swords, staves, spears, and clubs. Once the weapons were lost the empty-handed techniques in KK became known as Muay Boran which later developed into its own ma.

The ancient Myanmar or burmese armies also used Lethwei and Bando to win many battles and wars.

What Mr. Green was saying was that the wars were mostly fought using the armed methods, and unarmed muay thai bears little resemblance to any battlefield, past, present or future.

Over many centuries shaolin monks participated in battles using different variations of kung fu.

Careful with this. There is a whole can of worms with this idea.

The list goes on there were many ma's today that come from some form of combat art, and would be the reason it could be considered a superior art in a real world sense.

Careful here too. Reputation as being involved in combat doesn't make a martial art more effective.

But I think thats almost what mma has become its own style a hybrid of MT and BJJ,

There are the "big four" component styles of MMA - boxing, muay thai, bjj, and western wrestling. You won't find many people who find sucess using only one style.

these are the only people that are really succeeding in mma and because of that all of the training is focused in pretty much the same way. I agree the fights are great and the sport has evolved with much better fighters than ever I think it is going in the direction of not really being so called mixed martial arts. Should just call it two martial arts, ok not really but doesn't it seem like the fighters in mma do not have so much actual martial arts training, meaning most of them are tough guys that want to fight so they train in todays mma which is basic MT and BJJ techniques and then just get in shape and beat the hell outta each other. So in a sense you could say mma today is its own style and the only people that are winning are pure "mma" stylists.

Fair enough.