9-11 Truthers: Talk about it here

[Twin Fist]

Well, you could, I dont know,,,, REFUTE what i said.

Or just admit that you cant refute what i said.

Pre-9-11 IS relevant, if for nothing else than to show what NOT to do.....

"History paints a much different picture in regards to these covert groups than what you're implying. Small loosely connected groups which frequently fight amongst each other aren't much of a threat. Usually the covert groups that eventually succeed have some form of consensus and a common goal"

thier common goal is to kill infidels. You are wrong, deal with it.

But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds

 

[mrhnau]

But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds

Lets try that then... how can you explain the presence of Thermite in the rubble of the towers? Thermite has two basic uses: Military usage and building destruction. Pretty much no other usage. The towers were obviously not storing military supplies, and normal businessmen don't carry around copious amounts of this stuff, so can we assume their presence there indicated a controlled demolition?

 

[MBuzzy]

Where was there proof of Thermite presence?

 

[mrhnau]

Where was there proof of Thermite presence?

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/2514/Red_Chips_Thermite_Explosives_found_in_911_Dust/

From post #10 in this thread.

 

[Big Don]

The Popular Mechanics article debunking a lot of this idiocy: LINK

 

[MBuzzy]

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/2514/Red_Chips_Thermite_Explosives_found_in_911_Dust/

From post #10 in this thread.

The actual question here is what is the SOURCE. I don't believe that disclose.tv whose primary purpose is to report on topics that others don't believe, such as UFOs, paranormal activity, and other conspiracies is a very reliable source.

I heard nothing from a major, reputable new source regarding thermite.

 

[Marginal]

Well, you could, I dont know,,,, REFUTE what i said.

Or just admit that you cant refute what i said.

There. Now you sound like a truther.

 

[Twin Fist]

Ok, lets take this and run with it.

lets just say it is thermite the good doctor found.

what are the uses of thermite?

well, it is NOT explosive. All it does is produce heat. You cant use it to take down a building.

The most common use of thermite is to weld metal together, well, i am sure that's not what the truthers are claiming, so lets look at the other use.

For CUTTING metal.

well hell, they must have used it to cut the steel supports, right?

nope.

why not? thermite doesnt work slow. it works FAST. The building would have come down in seconds, not in 45 minutes.

plus, what he found wasnt even thermite in the first place

Alex Jones, professional conspiracy theorist radio host, has said Jones found evidence of thermite. This isn't true. What Jones found was something which would have been in the debris pile anyway. Sulfur...
WTC Thermite
Sulfur
In Steven Jones' PDF "Answers to Objections and Questions", to support his claim for Sol-gels/Thermite he states:

"One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done,"
​

However when you look at the link he uses
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsair0911,0,471193.story?coll=ny-homepage-right-area
You find out Mr. Jones edits out the VERY next line which states

"He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers."
​

Apparently, Jones felt this was not important enough for his readers to know.

 

[MBuzzy]

Twin Fist - more excellent points. Reminded me...I forgot to mention in my first post. Controlled detonations of buildings are generally done with Shaped charges (C-4 usually), not Thermite. The intent is to sever the columns and beams at the exact right place at the exact right time. Thermite is too unpredicatble and it isn't "directable." It doesn't blast, it just sits and burns. C-4 can be molded to cut through beams and by using detonators, the blasts are timed perfectly to ensure that the building comes down properly.

 

[kailat]

So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building? As to why it fell? As to how it fell? I mean it was never even hit!! It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..

I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that! Just out of the blue!!!

A TRUTHER vs. a "REALIST" let's take a look at the too... If the shoe fits..i mean it's been a proven fct that OSAMA was trained by our US GVT.

Why is it so hard to believe that the GVT didn't just need a fall guy? Osama and his goons! Is it true of the 19 hijackers 11 have been identified as still alive? Still working as if none of this even happend? How about the 3 jets that were not even supposed to be in the air that day? The Pentagon - whow now there's a topic.. Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon? Why ?

Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle? I mean is it true they just remodeled and re fortitfied that exact area of the Pentegon for such an disaster just within months of it actually happening. RIGHT IN THAT EXACT SECTION of the Pentagon? How ironic huh?

Funny how our Govt' new the WTC were gonna be attacked yet, done nothing about it..

To me its more than a conspiracy- a cover up- yet its more-so a group of coincidences that all come together. ARE WE ALL BRAIN WASHED to believe the media? To know what they say is TRUTH!

How can you be so sure? It's really unpleasant to me, to see that our GOVT would even do such a thing if they did. If they didnt' than PROVE IT ALL WRONG and you have my appologies.

Im just really, unsure of the whole thing. I wont' believe what the media says. Sure 2 planes flew into the buildings... that much we saw...

There is no disputing that.. But where they really FLights 91 and 93? Why as all the planes in the sky ordered to be grounded except for MILITARY jets, yet their were witnesses that saw 2 jets not of military type flying obove the Pentagon? Why was the video tape confiscated at the gas station across the street from the pentagon? WHere is it? why have we not seen this footage!!!


Alot needs to be brought out to light before i believe it was not an inside job..

just my opinion..

 

[Twin Fist]

So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building? As to why it fell? As to how it fell? I mean it was never even hit!! It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..

it fell because ONE ENTIRE CORNER OF THE BUILDING WAS DESTROYED BY FALLING DEBRIS

did ya miss that part?

guess what ran through that corner? a fuel oil pipeline. That ignited and fed a fire.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that! Just out of the blue!!!

nope wrong again, they knew for HOURS that it was going to fall.

i mean it's been a proven fct that OSAMA was trained by our US GVT.

yes, in how to fire stinger missles during the russian occupation of afganistan

Why is it so hard to believe that the GVT didn't just need a fall guy? Osama and his goons! Is it true of the 19 hijackers 11 have been identified as still alive?

nope, wrong again, guys with the same NAME have been found. How many john Smith's are there in america?

Still working as if none of this even happend? How about the 3 jets that were not even supposed to be in the air that day?

need more details

The Pentagon - whow now there's a topic.. Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon? Why ?

hundreds of witnesses SAW THE FRIGGIN PLANE FLY ALL THE WAY INTO THE BUILDING

Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle?[/quote}

yes i am sure because HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE PLANE

Funny how our Govt' new the WTC were gonna be attacked yet, done nothing about it..

facts not in evidence, prove they knew it was going to happen and by that method in advance

How can you be so sure? It's really unpleasant to me, to see that our GOVT would even do such a thing if they did. If they didnt' than PROVE IT ALL WRONG and you have my appologies.

I already have, and you are still at it

popular mechanics did, and people like you are still at it

There is no disputing that.. But where they really FLights 91 and 93?

yes they are sure, and yes it has beenproven

Why as all the planes in the sky ordered to be grounded except for MILITARY jets, yet their were witnesses that saw 2 jets not of military type flying obove the Pentagon?

WRONG AGAIN
they saw a military c-130 hercules, but didnt know what it was, review of the air traffic controllers radar tapes proved it

Why was the video tape confiscated at the gas station across the street from the pentagon? WHere is it?

it was released TWO YEARS AGO after the trial of Jose Padilla, the media didnt bother reporting this because it showed nothing.

why have we not seen this footage!!!

see above

Alot needs to be brought out to light before i believe it was not an inside job..

I have a funny feeling you want to believe the conspiracy story, for reasons i have already gone into

just my opinion..

it's wrong, it has been proven wrong more times than 2 has been proven to be 1+1

 

[Sukerkin]

TF, it's clear that this is a subject that irks you but I really think you would make better headway by constructing an argument rather than engaging in bullet-point-combat.

I can see that what you think you are doing is deconstructing the opposing point-of-view brick-by-brick but how it comes across is more like an assault on the person you're talking to.

Having an opinion and arguing your case is perfectly fine, it's one of the main reasons a discussion board exists. Doing the internet equivalent of poking your finger in someones face with "AND I'LL TELL YOU ANOTHER THING!" is not going to win any supporters to your view. If anything, given the high percentage of martially inclined, morally responsible, thinkers we have here, it's going to undermine your position.

Rationality gets your point across. Emotionalism does not.

If you don't agree, that's fine but I'd like to see this thread develop into more than just going over the same old ground and it wont if hearts overrule heads.

 

[MBuzzy]

Twin Fist beat me to it again, just wanted to add the engineer perspective....

So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building? As to why it fell? As to how it fell? I mean it was never even hit!! It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..

I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that! Just out of the blue!!!!

Actually, it is amazing that no OTHER buildings fell down than what did. There is a good possibility that WTC 7 would have gone down whether it had been hit with debris or not. Remember that NYC is built on an island. Meaning that the subsurface is not as stable as an inland city. When a major impact like that happens, the shock waves travel down through the superstructure of the building into the underpinnings. Any building in NYC must have relatively substantial subsurface supports...Caissons, piles, etc. The bigger the building, the deeper the piles. Buildings in close proximity would have felt that shock up through their underground support structure, which would have been translated up into the superstructure of the building. There is actually a concern that many buildings in the close proximity of the WTC have been drastically damaged - damage that we cannot see. In effect, their service lives have been impacted significantly. Extra stress on the superstructure that they WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR. Thse shock waves would not cause an immediate catastrophic failure...its is something that will be seen over time, as the dead loads on the building have more fatigue effects. The debris which hit WTC 7 is what caused the immediate catastrophic failure.

The Pentagon - whow now there's a topic.. Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon? Why ?

Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle? I mean is it true they just remodeled and re fortitfied that exact area of the Pentegon for such an disaster just within months of it actually happening. RIGHT IN THAT EXACT SECTION of the Pentagon? How ironic huh?

Unfortunately, I can't go into as much depth on this one as I would like to. What I can say is that a guided missle would have a DRASTICALLY different trajectory and would have impacted different causing completely different failure modes. The angle of strike on the Pentagon simply could not have been caused by a weapon grade rocket.

As for this fortification....remodeling I wouldn't doubt....but I have no idea where the information about "fortification" came from. The Pentagon is built of Concrete overlaid on a steel frame. There is really no way to effectively go BACK and improve the structure without MAJOR changes to the building. Basically, the would have had to shut down the whole section and tear a lot out for this to happen.

To me its more than a conspiracy- a cover up- yet its more-so a group of coincidences that all come together. ARE WE ALL BRAIN WASHED to believe the media? To know what they say is TRUTH!

This is not the media talking. These are eyewitnesses and simple physics. The Media was not doing real investigations...they were simply reporting on what others had done.

Did I mention that I had a Structural engineering/Concrete professor who was called in to advise on the Pentagon damage? I assure you, this is one of the smartest men I have ever known.....This was an airplane....this was not a conspiracy.

I would submit that if you believe the conspiracy theories, you should also take the same care to examine to opposing evidence....from reputable sources, i.e. not conspiracy related sources. Talk to researchers, engineers, professors, scientists, people who were there and witnessed the thing. If there are doubts, they can easily be refuted by those who were there.

 

[MA-Caver]

Unfortunately, I can't go into as much depth on this one as I would like to. What I can say is that a guided missle would have a DRASTICALLY different trajectory and would have impacted different causing completely different failure modes. The angle of strike on the Pentagon simply could not have been caused by a weapon grade rocket.

As for this fortification....remodeling I wouldn't doubt....but I have no idea where the information about "fortification" came from. The Pentagon is built of Concrete overlaid on a steel frame. There is really no way to effectively go BACK and improve the structure without MAJOR changes to the building. Basically, the would have had to shut down the whole section and tear a lot out for this to happen.

Understandably there are more questions to the Pentagon attack than there are answers.
I recall seeing photographs of the impact site before that part of the building collapsed. There's a small hole (in relation to the size of a jet airliner) at the point of impact. Again the grass is unharmed, unmarked and not even scorched brown/black by the intense heat of thousands of gallons of fuel igniting suddenly. Here they say the plane was pulverized completely. Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways.
You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall.
Simply amazing isn't it?

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp

 

[MBuzzy]

I stand corrected - there were structural reinforcements taking place. Ones that had been going on for 8 years prior to the attack. It seems that steel tubing was being used to reinforce the existing structure which definately helped and caused a more stable structure for the plane to hit.

Understandably there are more questions to the Pentagon attack than there are answers.
I recall seeing photographs of the impact site before that part of the building collapsed. There's a small hole (in relation to the size of a jet airliner) at the point of impact. Again the grass is unharmed, unmarked and not even scorched brown/black by the intense heat of thousands of gallons of fuel igniting suddenly. Here they say the plane was pulverized completely. Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways.
You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall.
Simply amazing isn't it?

I believe that with a bit of research you can find the answers to your questions. I really can't see many questions remaining regarding these crashes.

That "small hole" that is used in many of these pictures was actually in one of the innermost rings, the outer rings having been damaged much more severely.

As for missing pieces of the aircraft in comparison to other aircraft hitting runways and open fields.....There is a major difference between an aircraft crashing into the ground or a runway and into 5 rings of extremely thick concrete and steel walls. When a plane crashes on a runway or in a field, it is usually redirected and the entire impact is not absorbed by the ground. In this case, the airplane hit the first wall, kept going through the second wall, then kept going through the third wall, etc etc....at some point bursting into flame. Remember, 5 rings equals 10 walls, plus hallway space, plus the space in between each ring, plus the floors, and the rest of the steel superstructure. The concrete we're talking about here is by no means thick. Basically ONE WALL is the thickness of an entire runway.

If you doubt the pentagon crash, here is an analogy....

Take a look at this video. This is a truck, going at a FRACTION of the speed of an aircraft, running into a single steel post, and NOT being lit on fire....and check out the unidentifiable wreck that the cab became. Now add about 400 MPH, about 20 feet on solid concrete and steel separated by hallways, floors, etc....and don't forget the 1800 degree fire.

 

[Empty Hands]

But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds

The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers. They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all believed they saw those planes and all that evidence. None of it really exists! You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!

Disprove that logic-boy.

 

[MA-Caver]

The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers. They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all believed they saw those planes and all that evidence. None of it really exists! You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!

Disprove that logic-boy.

Actually... the devil did it... you can see his image in the smoke a few seconds after the second plane crashed into the second tower... And again as one of the buildings burn and then once more as one of the buildings collapsed....

the evidence is irrefutable, incontestable and right there!

Nuff said... now ya'll go to church!


:uhyeah:

 

[Twin Fist]

Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways.
You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall.
Simply amazing isn't it?

wrong

the pictures you are referring to caver are crashed where the pilot was trying to LAND, not trying to use the plane as a weapon.

watch the clip of the plane flying into a concrete wall i posted on page one.

the plane literally dissappears

nothing left but the engines

same EXACT thing that happened at the pentagon


Also, the fuel had the same inertia as everything else, when the wall was penetrated,all of it got funneled into the building. What wasnt destroyed in the impact was destroyed by the fire.

They found jet engines and landing gear inside the building. Missles dont have those.

Sukerin,
I have to answer these charges point by point, otherwise I will get accused of not refuting something. And no one will be saying that about me, not on THIS subject.

Every single claim the truthers can come out with, i can refute

they REFUSE to admit that they got nothing, so yeah it irks me that people just put thier fingers in thier ears and ignore the un-deniable truth.

Mostly because these so called theories ( i call them fantasy mind you) all depend on the military being in on the plan, and I am a veteran.

I will NOT let someone accuse the military i gave 12 years of my life to of mass murder when I can prove they are full of crap.

 

[Twin Fist]

you so funny, everyone KNOW that the Bilderbergers are really doing everything they can to UNDERMINE the Grays. Apparently, there was a really big lunch tab one day a few years back, and the grey's stuck the Bilder's with the check...

The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers. They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all believed they saw those planes and all that evidence. None of it really exists! You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!

Disprove that logic-boy.