9-11 Truthers: Talk about it here

[CoryKS]

I've heard an anecdote often attributed to Henry Kissenger who, when confronted with reams of "evidence" of a government conspiracy to kill JFK/ stage the moon landing / spread AIDS among black people / retard us with fluoride, was said to reply, "You have a naive faith in the efficiency of the US government."

Folks, these are the people who run the DMV, fergawdsake.

 

[Sukerkin]

I don't have first hand experience of the efficiency with which the US Government manages it's various public departments but I'm in my fifth decade of living with the mess that is petty local authority bureaucracy here in England and I have to say ... good point Cory .

 

[Twin Fist]

Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado

ah yes, the same place that employed Ward Churchill.............

i actually couldnt care less what he thinks or disagree with him more.

For him to take the SELF STATED goals of the radical islamic groups and call them "a paranoid fantasy of the first order - one as utterly unhinged from reality as the most extravagant imaginings of the 9/11 Truthers."

that alone lets you know his opinion is worthless

so no, that is in fact NOT a good summation. Sorry marginal

Nice summation IMO

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/18/campos-very-serious-911-untruths/

 

[Nolerama]

This whole discussion only showcases where we get our information from, how we spin it, and how blind we all are to the things that matter most to humanity.

It makes us hate before reasoning with the situation. It makes us act irrationally before we think.

And a lot of us are stuck back in 2001, hating the world around us, regardless of our political views, and ignorant to the needs of the world NOW.

In a perfect world, this would be a great argument, but it's not a perfect world... Because a lot of our emotions are tied to one sad day in America; and those ties will never be severed.

It will take an entire generation to start thinking ahead.

That's how 9-11 destroyed America.

 

[Marginal]

Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado

ah yes, the same place that employed Ward Churchill.............

i actually couldnt care less what he thinks or disagree with him more.

As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.

 

[Big Don]

As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.

Way to quote the part of what he said that isn't pertinent. do you try to miss the point? If so, well done!

 

[Twin Fist]

As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.

Marginal, the REALITY is that these people want us DEAD

they have been saying so, and WHY for over 20 years.

people like the professor are the ones denying REALITY

or are all the tapes and announcements the islamo-facists make just false flag stuff the president puts out to fool us?


come on dude

 

[Marginal]

It doesn't really matter what some ragtag groups living in caves think about the US if they're incapable of acting on those musings.

Not sure why living in a paranoid delusion is preferable. Weird enough that most Republicans don't trust the US government to regulate things like oil speculation, but you expect a disorganized loose collection of outliers to band together, magically form a great caliphate, and take down western civilization, further, they're going to force the US to submit to Sharia law with nukes that won't exist for another ten years at best? Nukes with no viable delivery system? This is tinfoil hat territory as I see it.

Why is the 911 conspiracy outlandish because the US government can't possibly pull something like that off, but you're willing to credit that same absurd level of precision to your perceived transcendent enemy?

 

[MBuzzy]

yes, the fire was trapped in a steel building, with LOTS of flammable stuff inside it. Plus, the heat was trapped inside the building. that mulitplies the heat produced

yes, airplane wings and tail are mostly hollow(the tail) or filled with fuel(the wings), hiting the building sheared them off.

There wouldnt be much debris left after hitting at full speed.
watch this:

The only really solid things on an airplane are the engines. and those were found inside the building.

Right on, couldn't have said it better. It is also important to understand how steel and concrete work under heat. These buildings are designed for certain fire situations. Generally we (Civil Engineers) design for XX hours worth of fire rating. This is a local design criteria based on the average buliding fire temperatures and how long the structure of the building must be protected from the fire. It details where and how stairways will be laid out, it is the reason for heavy doors with no glass in the middle of buildings, large thick walls inbetween different parts of the buliding, etc.

WELL, when concrete and steel are exposed to ANY heat, they behave much differently. First, steel does something that we call "yielding." Yielding is a GREAT thing to ignore when trying to discount the jet fuel. Steel's yield temp is well within the range of buring jet fuel. Ever bent a paperclip a bunch of times? Is it EVER as strong as it once was? NO. That is also yielding...just fatigue yielding. How about plastic....melt plastic, let it dry....it loses strength. So does steel. Add the weight of the concrete and all other floors and BOOM. Buliding falls.

I can go into depth about how concrete behaves as well. Bottom line is this....there are lots of REALLY smart people who fully agree that those planes hitting the buildings were the sole cause of them falling. Take it for truth or not, but I challenge you to find a REAL STRUCTURAL engineering to disagree.

The bottom line is that Twin Fist is right...I can go into depth about any of the things you're talking about. They are all 100% explained by simple physics and engineering. If this was planned, things would have happened differently.

 

[Twin Fist]

It doesn't really matter what some ragtag groups living in caves think about the US if they're incapable of acting on those musings.

OBL's money made them capable

Not sure why living in a paranoid delusion is preferable.

I can give you 3000 reasons why it is not paranoid or delusional.

Weird enough that most Republicans don't trust the US government to regulate things like oil speculation,

i favor government control of the speculation market

but you expect a disorganized loose collection of outliers to band together, magically form a great caliphate, and take down western civilization

i dont expect them to succeed, i expect them to kill tens of thousands TRYING. The only way they can succeed is if people keep ignoring the threat or pretending it isnt real

further, they're going to force the US to submit to Sharia law with nukes that won't exist for another ten years at best? Nukes with no viable delivery system? This is tinfoil hat territory as I see it.

then you havnt thought it through. The information on HOW to make one is out there, all they have to do is buy the parts, or just BUY one from russia.... and shipping containers are still not inspected.

Why is the 911 conspiracy outlandish because the US government can't possibly pull something like that off, but you're willing to credit that same absurd level of precision to your perceived transcendent enemy?

they are motivated by GOD and they have no moral framework telling them NOT to.

 

[kailat]

As for the 9 11 truth movemnt.. did you guys hear bout this? wow

 

[Twin Fist]

guys are writing the troops and telling them not to fight?

thats textbook treason. and should be prosecuted as such

 

[jks9199]

This reminds alot of the the attack on Pearl Harbor. There is a large movement that claims the US intercepted radio transmissions and knew of the attack. Part of their claim is that most of the integral part of the fleet at Pearl Harbor was moved out just prior to the attack.

They claim very much like the 9-11 truth movement that the gov't allowed the attack to happen to justify entering into a war. Many people thought it strange that the US entered into WW2 in the European front and not in the Pacific front to fight the people who attacked them. Much like some people think that the main focus was always Iraq and when the 9/11 smoking gun turned out to be Afghanistan we needed to create something else to invade Iraq.

For the record, I'm not claiming this as my belief just pointing out some similarities between the two conspiracy theories.

My understanding is that there were actually several indicators before Pearl Harbor, including sighting of a Japanese minisub, intercepted radio transmissions and diplomatic messages/actions. However -- the mere fact that there were indicators doesn't mean that they were collated and recognized until (long) after the fact... Raw data alone is not intelligence until it's gathered, interpreted and becomes "value added."

 

[Marginal]

OBL's money made them capable

Eh. Those accounts have been frozen for years now. What's he done for us lately? Bush "wasn't concerned at all" about the dude for years.

I can give you 3000 reasons why it is not paranoid or delusional.

That already happened. Invading Iran etc isn't going to make the towers pop back up again.

i dont expect them to succeed, i expect them to kill tens of thousands TRYING. The only way they can succeed is if people keep ignoring the threat or pretending it isn't real

Emotionalism's nice and all but the facts just don't add up. Police the loose groups of terrorists. However, It's pointless to fight a vast shadow organization that doesn't exist. There is no cohesive terrorist organization. There is no meaningful organization between terrorist groups. That implies to me at least, that this vast middle eastern islamofacist conspiracy has no factual legs.

There's a threat of terrorism, but that's been present since the nation's founding.

then you havnt thought it through. The information on HOW to make one is out there, all they have to do is buy the parts, or just BUY one from russia.... and shipping containers are still not inspected.

Shipping containers won't be. Congress won't touch them, and the administration's been completely indifferent to the issue.

That aside, that assumes they can build dozens of warheads. Not to mention place the things in places of some strategic value without attracting anyone's attention. If they're that capable, why didn't they hit during the confusion of 9-11? Surely OBL could've picked up surplus nukes from Saddam "Yellowcake" Hussein or the Russians etc.

they are motivated by GOD and they have no moral framework telling them NOT to.

Yes, there are a handful of organizations that don't collaborate with each other. How does this add up to a solid middle eastern caliphate? How will they dominate the world? They're not even a cohesive group.

 

[Sukerkin]

Good points being made and discussed, gentlemen.

I do feel, tho', that perhaps we are straying into a conversation about the actual effectiveness of terrorism as a policy changing force rather than what the events of 9-11 were.

Another thing to ponder is that, understandably because this is a largely American populated board, the attack on the World Trade Centre is generally inferred to be an 'attack on America'.

It took place on Amerian soil, certainly, but it can be more properly characterised as a symbollic blow to the unrestrained global capitalism that the protagonists see as operating to the detriment of their beliefs/countries. Many nationalities lost their lives that day and many international companies took a financial hit too.

To see it solely as a direct assault on America is to reduce some of the perspectives from which the atrocity can be viewed, which in turn reduces how widely and deeply the search for explanations goes.

 

[Twin Fist]

it is off topic for the thread, but it is important to discuss, PLUS, ideas like Marginal's are WHY some people find it easy to believe the wack job conspiricy nuts. (So it is related, at least marginally....heh heh)

They are simply too afraid to accept that there are MILLIONS of people out there that want them dead. For no reason that makes sense in thier intellectual view of the world, where things like "religion" are artifacts to be discussed rationally and coldly.

So they ignore the evidence, the dead bodies, the claims the islamic facists make themselves, they ignore all of it. Intellectuals have always been cowards in the face of brutal reality. It is outside thier mental frame of reference.

So if all the evidence "simply cant be true" then what is left? ah, that evil genius/idiot Bush must have done it......

"Those accounts have been frozen for years now."

1. THEY WERE NOT frozen before 9-11
2. They were only frozen because the president took the steps to do it. The fact we havnt been attacked again HERE is proof that the presidents actions were the right ones.

"That already happened. Invading Iran etc isn't going to make the towers pop back up again."

1. Thats friggin cold hearted as hell dude
2. No, but eliminating the groups, killing thier members and keeping pressure ont hem THERE might prevent New York Harbor from getting turned into air pollution. Or San Pedro. Or Oakland. Or Houston. Or Charleston....

" However, It's pointless to fight a vast shadow organization that doesn't exist. There is no cohesive terrorist organization. There is no meaningful organization between terrorist groups. That implies to me at least, that this vast middle eastern islamofacist conspiracy has no factual legs."

You are showing an ignorance of military history and how covert groups work bro.

Small, loosely connected groups are very powerful. If they all worked closely together, one captured prisoner could get them all killed, so they stay seperate, no one person knowing very much. Not to mention that the ENTIRE 9-11 operation involved less than 100 people.

You get that? they didnt need a huge group to make that plan work. You simply dont know what you are talking about.

"Yes, there are a handful of organizations that don't collaborate with each other. How does this add up to a solid middle eastern caliphate? How will they dominate the world? They're not even a cohesive group."

many seperate groups, working towards the same goal are jsut as effective as one large group. Perhaps even more so because it is harder to fight 100 battles than just one.

Look at what is happening around the world.

Muslims are settling in countries the world over. Once there, they dont by and large assimilate.

they are converting, BY FORCE in many of those places

the one thing they have in common, RELIGION, is telling all of them that their GOD wants them to do this

They intimidate, WITH THE THREAT OF TERROR ATTACKS anyone who speaks out against it.

These things ARE happening, we ignore them at our own peril.

As, as a reminder, I am speaking of radical wahabbist. Not every single Muslim on the planet.

 

[Marginal]

Heh. Oh yes, the fear. That's why I don't think this great conspiracy's likely. Let's put aside the facts and basic human nature so that we can view the world much like 1930's Germany did. Only then will we be real men.

 

[Twin Fist]

wow, what a complete non-answer


i thought you were better than that

 

[Marginal]

What exactly did you expect as a response to four paragraphs of "You're a coward! Real men wallow in fear!"?

Don't waste my time with that garbage.

Last reply as this is OT.

1. Stop presenting arguments for current issues with what happened before 9-11 as your basis. The world's moved on. Structures have changed etc. It's not relevant.

2. Keeping pressure on terrorist groups is what I've been advocating all along. Keeping pressure on vague nonentities is another issue.

3. History paints a much different picture in regards to these covert groups than what you're implying. Small loosely connected groups which frequently fight amongst each other aren't much of a threat. Usually the covert groups that eventually succeed have some form of consensus and a common goal. There's too much infighting among the current terrorist factions to credibly make the claim you're trying to make.

4. The Economist pointed out a while ago that the US isn't really suffering from the problems with faith related clashes that have been popping up in Europe. We're generally more tolerant of competing religions, and our government's set up in a way that minimizes the friction compared to most of Europe. We're more likely to assimilate incoming groups than not thanks to the constitutional protections extended to religious groups etc. (Ironically the "security" minded Muslimophobics are probably undermining national security more by mistrusting every Muslim they see, every mosque they oppose the construction of etc.)

 

[Kacey]

[playnice]Karen Cohn[/playnice]