Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
lol
:asian:
:asian:
10th degree
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
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I do beleive I am in the market for a new mentor
T
tonbo
Guest
Reading Klondike's post brought up something I've noticed at our school: most of the Black Belts don't actually worry about testing after getting their Black. In fact, some of them actually try to *avoid* testing whenever they can. In most cases, they just don't worry about it, and aren't concerned with the rank. They work hard at what they do, and enjoy it to the fullest......they just don't feel the need to test. Makes me laugh to hear a 4th degree giving all kinds of excuses as to why he isn't ready.....makes me think of my own test for Black....:rofl:
Also, I don't think our school is in any danger of having guys break off and open their own schools. We all feel like we still need to learn what we don't know, before we can begin learning all the other stuff. Heh....at this rate, I think I am just about ready to test for my white belt.....:rofl:
Peace--
Also, I don't think our school is in any danger of having guys break off and open their own schools. We all feel like we still need to learn what we don't know, before we can begin learning all the other stuff. Heh....at this rate, I think I am just about ready to test for my white belt.....:rofl:
Peace--
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
What is the reason for testing GD? Is it to put the person under stress to see how they respond or is there some other grand scheme to it?
Until last month I hadn't tested since 1989 I think it was. I found it more fun than stressful, so it got me to wondering about why the need to test after reaching black.
:asian:
Until last month I hadn't tested since 1989 I think it was. I found it more fun than stressful, so it got me to wondering about why the need to test after reaching black.
:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Dennis,
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment... Everyone! Note! This is not necessarily my opinion ... Just so you understand that before you start firing rockets and flames at me.
Why do we need to test, at all? In the early days, SGM Parker simply gave out rank as he felt that people were ready. By that time he knew how people reacted to stress, what they knew and where they were going. Why should we subject everyone to the testing, which can be a humiliation, if it is done right, and the person isn't on top of his/her knowledge?
Further, I don't care how knowledgeable some folk are, they just don't test very well. And if that is the case, and they can't pass a test for whatever reason, should they never be allowed to advance?
Whatsmore ... Testing of handicapped people ... If they must be tested, then they should be tested at the same level as everyone else, otherwise, that becomes very unfair to everyone, or you should change the parameters for the test so that it is inclusive of everyone, both handicapped, and non-handicapped. If this is done .. Does it make the testing less useful, because it would, taking the handicaps into account, make them less effective for non-handicapped students?
What happens if you have someone who is a student, who has a less than high school or even a grade school education, who is not necessarily well versed in original thought or capable of putting thoughts down in a cogent manner, and therefore, can not make up a very well written thesis for his/her Black Belt. Do we then make that a lesser requirement, and if we do, is that fair to the folks who have worked very diligently and with great effort to create a useful thesis?
As I said, I do not anticipate any flames here, as this is simply put forth for discussion purposes. I'm hoping tho get some inciteful comments here, and not just from Dennis! We've discussed most of this before.
Take care and be well,
Dan "Advocate for the Devil" Farmer
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment... Everyone! Note! This is not necessarily my opinion ... Just so you understand that before you start firing rockets and flames at me.
Why do we need to test, at all? In the early days, SGM Parker simply gave out rank as he felt that people were ready. By that time he knew how people reacted to stress, what they knew and where they were going. Why should we subject everyone to the testing, which can be a humiliation, if it is done right, and the person isn't on top of his/her knowledge?
Further, I don't care how knowledgeable some folk are, they just don't test very well. And if that is the case, and they can't pass a test for whatever reason, should they never be allowed to advance?
Whatsmore ... Testing of handicapped people ... If they must be tested, then they should be tested at the same level as everyone else, otherwise, that becomes very unfair to everyone, or you should change the parameters for the test so that it is inclusive of everyone, both handicapped, and non-handicapped. If this is done .. Does it make the testing less useful, because it would, taking the handicaps into account, make them less effective for non-handicapped students?
What happens if you have someone who is a student, who has a less than high school or even a grade school education, who is not necessarily well versed in original thought or capable of putting thoughts down in a cogent manner, and therefore, can not make up a very well written thesis for his/her Black Belt. Do we then make that a lesser requirement, and if we do, is that fair to the folks who have worked very diligently and with great effort to create a useful thesis?
As I said, I do not anticipate any flames here, as this is simply put forth for discussion purposes. I'm hoping tho get some inciteful comments here, and not just from Dennis! We've discussed most of this before.
Take care and be well,
Dan "Advocate for the Devil" Farmer
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
IMHO, testing is part of what I call "The Process", If you get to Black then just "learn" thru multiple ranks.... what message is that for the lower ranks.....? I realize that rank doesn't make the person the person makes the rank, however I feel since you started the game..... why change rules at any given point. Why not at green or brown...... same end result....... right...... but don't make Black stop at 1st Black or even 2nd Black. I just think its a bad example for the lower students and it robs your instructor the right or privilege to advance you in the art for future generations correctly and properly by progressing "thru the ranks" (which may be a lost art today) and leaving a strong legacy.
Mr. Parker promoted me to 3rd, 4th and 5th Black of which I was promoted to 5th in 1987. I had not perused a promotion after Mr. Parker's Passing, in fact turned down 3 offers to test for various personal reasons..... I was just recently promoted by Mr. Steve LaBounty this past September. Even I was setting a bad example to some degree (even though my personal reasons I think were more than valid), but it was time to move on thanks to Mr. LaBounty I was humbled to accept his promotion (a Martial Artist I hold in very High Esteem among the current field of options).
At any rate I continued to explore Kenpo the past 15 years with or without a promotion....... but I had no 4th or 5th degrees pushing me for promotion anyway so it really didn't matter, today is a different scene with several higher ranks now studying so it changes the complexion of things.
I hope that clarifies MY PERSONAL VIEWS I realize others may differ.........
:asian:
Mr. Parker promoted me to 3rd, 4th and 5th Black of which I was promoted to 5th in 1987. I had not perused a promotion after Mr. Parker's Passing, in fact turned down 3 offers to test for various personal reasons..... I was just recently promoted by Mr. Steve LaBounty this past September. Even I was setting a bad example to some degree (even though my personal reasons I think were more than valid), but it was time to move on thanks to Mr. LaBounty I was humbled to accept his promotion (a Martial Artist I hold in very High Esteem among the current field of options).
At any rate I continued to explore Kenpo the past 15 years with or without a promotion....... but I had no 4th or 5th degrees pushing me for promotion anyway so it really didn't matter, today is a different scene with several higher ranks now studying so it changes the complexion of things.
I hope that clarifies MY PERSONAL VIEWS I realize others may differ.........
:asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
1) Right and as we evolved and became more organized..... testing was one "tool" that found its way into the system. For many it is a goal to set and reach for. (I'll lecture you on goals some other time at great length to prove its usefulness LOL
Also we now have a difference between a "Promotion and a Test" both are still used today .... I do both for various reasons for different people.
2) Tailoring to an individual is one thing as a True Black Belt we learn during this "Process" (if taught as originally designed) we certainly need to either help the individual to conquer his shortcomings (we don't do that by hiding our heads in the sand) or by other means to boost their self confidence. Remember ... it is kenpo..... Its meant to be tough..... fists and feet hurt when hit, we need to build toughness and that starts with the toughest warrior to conquer ........ YOURSELF and your all your fears!
3) Once again..... we have general standards but along the road as we progress through this Process...... we use these types of opportunities to instruct our juniors how to promote, what to allow or not, and to justify hard work and a person that puts forth maximum effort to achieve his/her personal goals. I have seen some "challenged" folks do much better and show MORE effort and desire than the "NATURALS AND SUPER STARS" all very, very important issues to examine and discuss with your junior and senior instructors in developing your Philosophy...(oppssss another long lecture to help assist you in the complete understanding of my viewpoints)... hee hee..... (Man, I just realized that Dan, you are gonna keep me busy for the rest of your life bubba) ):rofl:
4) And once again.... we help the individual to learn the skills that he/she needs to accomplish goals just like everyone else, but at the same time only requiring their Maximum effort for their personal profile. If you are a college grad ~ then I would expect that level of work........ if just an 8th grade education..... then work appropriate for your education level and experience. No more no less.
Now that you have looked into my cranium....... I need a apple.
lol
:jediduel:
:asian:
donald
Black Belt
I know that some quit after reaching black, and some just stop seeking to advance. Although those who quit looking to advance are probably not going to remain active very long. At least in the school where they were promoted. I always thought testing after black was because there is more to learn? I realize that the BASICS at 1st black should be preety much mastered, but are'nt there more ADVANCED techniques, principals, and such to be absorbed at this level? I realize that there are political considerations at the higher levels of black, but they are'nt an obstacle at the lower levels of black, are they?
Salute :asian:
Salute :asian:
T
tonbo
Guest
I think there is *plenty* more to learn after Black. In fact, I tend to look at Black as an "advanced white belt": you are now ready to learn the art, having put in the time to get the basics somewhat down.
Essentially, at our school, you start over again at Black. You go back and take a look at some of the first techniques you learned as a yellow belt, and start applying various advanced concepts to them. Things change a little bit, as now you are able to see more options, and understand deeper meanings to the moves. It is a whole new world.
As far as testing, most of the "tests" I have seen were little more than demonstrations for friends and family. The belts are awarded ceremoniously after the students have gone through an "official" test. Basically, as long as you are giving your all and not intentionally trying to screw up, you will earn your belt. However, the evaluations that lead up to the test are where you actually earn your belt--the week before the "test", people are evaluated in class. Especially with the advanced belts, the instructors are watching you each class, and know how you tend to move, etc. They know when you are ready, regardless of how you perform under evaluation conditions.
I personally don't think that rank after 1st degree is "honorary". I think there is SO much to learn, that there is always something that can be passed on. I also think that part of the higher Black ranks is dependent on what you give back to the MA community. Are you a 6th degree who hasn't taught before, or hasn't taught in years? Are you working on advanced concepts? Are you finding and sharing deeper meanings in the techniques? As long as you are working in the art, I think you have the opportunity to grow. I am sure there are "advanced" Black rank holders out there who are little more than honorary, but the majority of them have truly earned where they are.
Sorry for the ramble.......
Peace--
Essentially, at our school, you start over again at Black. You go back and take a look at some of the first techniques you learned as a yellow belt, and start applying various advanced concepts to them. Things change a little bit, as now you are able to see more options, and understand deeper meanings to the moves. It is a whole new world.
As far as testing, most of the "tests" I have seen were little more than demonstrations for friends and family. The belts are awarded ceremoniously after the students have gone through an "official" test. Basically, as long as you are giving your all and not intentionally trying to screw up, you will earn your belt. However, the evaluations that lead up to the test are where you actually earn your belt--the week before the "test", people are evaluated in class. Especially with the advanced belts, the instructors are watching you each class, and know how you tend to move, etc. They know when you are ready, regardless of how you perform under evaluation conditions.
I personally don't think that rank after 1st degree is "honorary". I think there is SO much to learn, that there is always something that can be passed on. I also think that part of the higher Black ranks is dependent on what you give back to the MA community. Are you a 6th degree who hasn't taught before, or hasn't taught in years? Are you working on advanced concepts? Are you finding and sharing deeper meanings in the techniques? As long as you are working in the art, I think you have the opportunity to grow. I am sure there are "advanced" Black rank holders out there who are little more than honorary, but the majority of them have truly earned where they are.
Sorry for the ramble.......
Peace--
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
I like that part, it makes sense. I never thought about like that.
:asian:
:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Originally posted by Goldendragon7
1) Right and as we evolved and became more organized..... testing was one "tool" that found its way into the system. For many it is a goal to set and reach for. (I'll lecture you on goals some other time at great length to prove its usefulness LOL
Also we now have a difference between a "Promotion and a Test" both are still used today .... I do both for various reasons for different people.
2) Tailoring to an individual is one thing as a True Black Belt we learn during this "Process" (if taught as originally designed) we certainly need to either help the individual to conquer his shortcomings (we don't do that by hiding our heads in the sand) or by other means to boost their self confidence. Remember ... it is kenpo..... Its meant to be tough..... fists and feet hurt when hit, we need to build toughness and that starts with the toughest warrior to conquer ........ YOURSELF and your all your fears!
3) Once again..... we have general standards but along the road as we progress through this Process...... we use these types of opportunities to instruct our juniors how to promote, what to allow or not, and to justify hard work and a person that puts forth maximum effort to achieve his/her personal goals. I have seen some "challenged" folks do much better and show MORE effort and desire than the "NATURALS AND SUPER STARS" all very, very important issues to examine and discuss with your junior and senior instructors in developing your Philosophy...(oppssss another long lecture to help assist you in the complete understanding of my viewpoints)... hee hee..... (Man, I just realized that Dan, you are gonna keep me busy for the rest of your life bubba) ):rofl:
4) And once again.... we help the individual to learn the skills that he/she needs to accomplish goals just like everyone else, but at the same time only requiring their Maximum effort for their personal profile. If you are a college grad ~ then I would expect that level of work........ if just an 8th grade education..... then work appropriate for your education level and experience. No more no less.
Now that you have looked into my cranium....... I need a apple.
lol
:jediduel:
:asian:
Dennis, Darlin' little brother ...
Your pomposity is showing just the tiniest, eensie-weensiest, inky-binky little bit! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Dan
K
Kirk
Guest
Since those after 1st black are extensions of prior techniques,
there are some who view the curriculumn to black a complete
curriculumn. They say that the extensions are more to drive the
point in to the ground.
G
GouRonin
Guest
American Kenpoists have taken testing and turned it into (what they see as justifiable) hazing. But to be fair, they're not alone in the Martial arts world at it.
Really, as if on one single day anything someone does suddenly makes them rather than a culmination of years of work.
I love to hear stories of how hard people's testing was. "I worked for hours in a horse stance. Had to break tons of boards. My test was 24 hours long with no food or water. I have to fight a man eating gerbil!" Then I proceed to ask them what particular brand of stupid they are? I know a Black Belt who tells me they stood for 2 hours in a horse stance before they even began their test. Should I mention how they got their butt handed to them when they used what they knew?
Try to ask some of them why they do this and they say, "My instructor did it so we do it." This is the same attitude that people publically berate fraternity guys with when initiation rites come up. And don't you kid yourself into thinking it's not an initiation of sorts. It becomes a sort of test. Your initiation/test was tough so you make the next guy suffer the same way you did or worse because, "Hey, I went through it and I did ok." Except that no one stops to think that maybe the guy testing isn't you. Maybe he has different reactions. Maybe he doesn't feel the same way you do about it. But if you did it it's gotta be ok right? I mean, if this guy doesn't do it then he's not really black belt material is he?
If you want to test, then by all means do so. But don't kid yourself into thinking that it's all for the greater good. American Kenpo talks a lot about tailoring to the individual. Except when it suits them. A lot of arts are getting this way. Pushing someone to their limits because you think they should go there. Hey! Lookout Mr. Bad Guy! I stood in a horse stance for 2 hours! You better be careful of me!
I have to stop. I can taste bile.
:soapbox:
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
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- 8,069
- Reaction score
- 25
Gou, I want to pick on one thing you said. Just one. "Pushing some one their limits....." If someone won't push tjemselves to their limit on their own, maybe as an instructor, you owe it to them to. If someone never finds out what their limits are, they are deluding themselves and will find out in a worst case scenario. Besides, how can you ever overcome your limits and extend to new ones if you aren't pushed?:asian:
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
I guess Gou doesn't like testing very much eh?
:asian:
:asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
reality check for "some" that are out there that do exactly what he outlines. Not "all" American Kenpo Instructors are as stupid as what Gou is talking about, but they certainly are out there!
I don't take offense to any of What Gou says because I don't resemble those remarks, :rofl: but with the lack of controls of individuals in the martial Arts we do get these guys using the "testing process" only to entertain themselves and misuse its true purpose.
Reality Check ....... Instructors keep in mind that testing is just that a "check up" and a revealing or display of talent or skill to the board as to where the student is at this time, I also use it to acquire information from other instructors as to opinions of skill of the student and comments that may help me direct the student to further better him/herself.
Keep it real and useful not a mockery!
IMHO,
:asian:
I don't take offense to any of What Gou says because I don't resemble those remarks, :rofl: but with the lack of controls of individuals in the martial Arts we do get these guys using the "testing process" only to entertain themselves and misuse its true purpose.
Reality Check ....... Instructors keep in mind that testing is just that a "check up" and a revealing or display of talent or skill to the board as to where the student is at this time, I also use it to acquire information from other instructors as to opinions of skill of the student and comments that may help me direct the student to further better him/herself.
Keep it real and useful not a mockery!
IMHO,
:asian:
Hi All,
I know that testing can be taken to limits
beyond their desired results. What I mean is
that the hazing does occur, but in many schools
it is chance for people to have one day for
all the friends and family to stop by and see
what the students have learned.
As for pushing, people yes you can push people
and push them every class, slowly, not all at
once during a test.
I have a student who stutters real bad in front
of people, I make sure all of the testing
board has had a chance to ask him any of their
questions a couple of weeks before the test
one on one. One could say the student should
practicing speaking out more in public. He does
and takes professional classes for that.
Yet, back to Gou point there are many people out
there who say I went to "Some other country" to
test. Like the further you went the harder the
test must have been. I trained for weeks before
the test. Question, are you not training all
the time, not just before the test?
I have an instructor, in another system, that
gives no rank. He does not test. He will let
me know when I can teach others. I am happy
with this.
Peace be with everyone.
Rich
I know that testing can be taken to limits
beyond their desired results. What I mean is
that the hazing does occur, but in many schools
it is chance for people to have one day for
all the friends and family to stop by and see
what the students have learned.
As for pushing, people yes you can push people
and push them every class, slowly, not all at
once during a test.
I have a student who stutters real bad in front
of people, I make sure all of the testing
board has had a chance to ask him any of their
questions a couple of weeks before the test
one on one. One could say the student should
practicing speaking out more in public. He does
and takes professional classes for that.
Yet, back to Gou point there are many people out
there who say I went to "Some other country" to
test. Like the further you went the harder the
test must have been. I trained for weeks before
the test. Question, are you not training all
the time, not just before the test?
I have an instructor, in another system, that
gives no rank. He does not test. He will let
me know when I can teach others. I am happy
with this.
Peace be with everyone.
Rich
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Are there test boards for color belt test as well? In TKD when I tested as a color belt it was just in front of the head instructor. When I tested for black it was in front of a board. All of my kenpo tests have been in front of just the head instructor too but I'm only at blue right now.
:asian:
:asian:
Hi Klondike93,
Well in Modern Arnis, in the Flint Michigan
area it has been up to the school owner for
the color belt tests. In the club I teach at,
I am the main instructor, there are two other Lakan Tatlo, 3rd degree BB that show up and
are always there with me for tests. The Club
technically is that of my instructor, Master
Jim Power. He is also there as well as one to
two or three other Black Belts who 'grew up'
with us and have moved away but are available
for testing given notice.
So, the answer is yes, my experience is that
there are testing boards.
I have also been invited to be a guest instructor
on some other testing boards for a local TKD
school.
Yet, I do know that many local schools in many
different arts just have the head instructor
give the Rank.
Now not to confuse the issue, some people have
said that only rank can be obtained by attending
and testing at a 4-day camp. The Local Flint
Modern Arnis Clubs have had the power to promote
at color belt since 1979-1980, and Black Belt
since the early 80's also. So, even in the same
art there are not always consistent 'rules'.
Best of luck
Rich
Well in Modern Arnis, in the Flint Michigan
area it has been up to the school owner for
the color belt tests. In the club I teach at,
I am the main instructor, there are two other Lakan Tatlo, 3rd degree BB that show up and
are always there with me for tests. The Club
technically is that of my instructor, Master
Jim Power. He is also there as well as one to
two or three other Black Belts who 'grew up'
with us and have moved away but are available
for testing given notice.
So, the answer is yes, my experience is that
there are testing boards.
I have also been invited to be a guest instructor
on some other testing boards for a local TKD
school.
Yet, I do know that many local schools in many
different arts just have the head instructor
give the Rank.
Now not to confuse the issue, some people have
said that only rank can be obtained by attending
and testing at a 4-day camp. The Local Flint
Modern Arnis Clubs have had the power to promote
at color belt since 1979-1980, and Black Belt
since the early 80's also. So, even in the same
art there are not always consistent 'rules'.
Best of luck
Rich
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
each to his own I guess.........
:asian:
:asian:
