Kenpo Rank

[cdhall]

This discussion began under Mr. Trejo being a 10th or not but I think it merits its own thread if for nothing else than to keep Mr. Trejo's name out of it.

I have had History professors say that the US is or was looked upon as an Outlaw and Free spirit in some cases regarding international affairs. Partly because the US was born of an illegal act (the Constitution was drawn up illegally, the guys were sent there to rework the Articles of Confederation) and so being born of an illegal act, we are marked by it forever.

So... I have seen Mr. C. post on a tribute site that he once asked Mr. Parker how he "came to wear a 10th" if I remember right. While I don't dispute that Mr. Parker deserved to be marked out as among the leaders and innovators and even creators of an "Art" there seem to be many that have confused this distinction to apply to an organization as well.

If you have military experience, you may follow me in that where the Military has distinctions between Rank and Position, we seem to have lost this in Kenpo after Mr. Parker's death. Prior to Mr. Parker there was a Kenpo-wide Rank Structure so that there was a 10th and every kenpo person affiliated with Mr. Parker was ranked by him (Rank) whether they were the head of their own organization (Position) or not.

After Mr Parker died it seems that now I can make a claim that if I start the Intergalactic Kenpo Karate Assimilation that I can be a 10th because of the position I hold in the organization regardless of what my rank was in the system prior to that.

I have a great story of someone who maintained the distinction between rank and position by the way, but I hesitate to repeat any of it. I should probaby hesitate even to post this, but I may be too naive for my own good.

OK. The question is this. How can you get promoted in Kenpo? American Kenpo anyway, following Mr. Parker.

Mr. C seems to say that you must be promoted by someone higher than you and not by the will of others no matter how strong that will might be.

Mr. Kelly seems to back this up by his refusing a 10th last year because it would allow him to pass his instructor. I think it is relevant that Mr. Kelly did pass his instructor before but that was by the action of Mr. Parker himself.

So if you can only get "pulled" up the ladder an not "pushed" up the ladder, then how does anyone make it to 10th?

Mr. Parker seems to have gotten there by skill and his contributions. No one disputed this, and no one disputed his promotions either. But then what?

Mr. Parker didn't leave a system in place for this. Did he discuss this in the manuals? Was there a precedent for his own elevation?

How do you get promoted in Kenpo? And, if you can only promote someone to the rank beneath you, then how do we avoid losing rank with each generation?

If Mr. LaBounty can only promote to 8th, and his students then to 7th etc, then it is conceiveable that at some point we won't have anyone who can even promote a Black Belt.

Quickly I'll add that some traditional Goju/Karate friends of mine and even Chinese Kung-Fu resources have said, roughly, that you are ranked up to 4th Black based on your proficiency and knowledge of the system (Mr. Parker had his charts stop at 3rd coincidentally). After this, Promotion Boards commonly elevate you further based on your contributions to the art. But in most all cases you are "elevated" by boards consisting of your seniors, so how does that system maintain itself?

OK. At least we have a thread for this now. I want to say that most all of this was brought up either directly or indirectly in one or more threads (as mentioned) and that by distilling the thoughts here I hope we can stay on topic and discuss this issue of rank and promotion (or not) more directly.

 

[Seig]

Doug,
I think yo havce asked a great question and worder it very well and respectfully. I, too, will beinterested in seing how the "Seniors" answer this. This is a subject of great debate. I eagerly look for Mr. Conatser's and Dr. Chap'el's answers.
Respectfully.:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

1 concept I've heard of is you get promoted by a panel of your peers. Get 4 8ths to agree your an 8th, and your in.

(been a long weekend, hope you can follow thought pattern here.)

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???

Really, it's not like Dennis is suffering, at least I don't think he is, from not having high rank.

If everyone else showed some d@mn respect and stopped promoting everyone else when the wind blew then maybe this wouldn't be a problem.

Ahhhhhhhhh foooey...
:soapbox:

 

[jfarnsworth]

My good friend that teaches JJ told me when he trained with his instructor a panel of judges got together and gave him certificates of rank. If I'm thinking properly the instructor was 6th or 7th or something, he received certificates until 10th degree from this panel of judges. Each of the certificates were pre-dated one degree every 5 yrs. I also believe that the panel consisted of 6 or 8 instructors that had trained with this individual. They decided his rank based on time in art, teaching the art, and coming up with his own JJ organization. This individual did not have an instructor and no way to move up in degrees. This seemed fair to me and wasn't left up to just 1 person to give the promotion.
Jason Farnsworth

 

[cdhall]

Seig,

I'm so glad you said that. I always try to be very respectful but it is hard sometimes because I am so curious. Fortunately my curiosity has led me to find that Mr. Parker was not just some really good guy with "lots of terms" so I am inclined to indulge myself. After all, I'm glad I pursued that line of curiosity. I also don't know who is here and I had forgotten that I saw a post once by "Doc" who I guess is Dr. Chapel and I think he must be new. I probably didn't catch it because I have never met him and because he was ranked as a White Belt when I saw the post. "Doc" and "White Belt" are not ideas that I associate together.

I will add that in a communications class I once took, the Prof emphasized that not only must you know your own material in any debate, but you must know the flipside so that you can address it should it come up. Since I am going to more tournaments and seminars now, this does come up and it does not look good for me as a loyal follower of a great system for 18 years to not be able to address a topic like this. Especially when the "traditional" guys are so fond of telling you how their lineage is directly traceable back to the "primordial pool" and so on. Thank you I am glad that I successfully communicated my sincere and humble desire to learn more about our system. I also hope it will be good for us to have this info at MartialTalk so I maybe won't need to go checking other sites so much. I think sooner or later there will be a good body of knowledge here on all topics. Thanks again.
:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???

Really, it's not like Dennis is suffering, at least I don't think he is, from not having high rank.

If everyone else showed some d@mn respect and stopped promoting everyone else when the wind blew then maybe this wouldn't be a problem.

Ahhhhhhhhh foooey...
:soapbox:

I think that while you may have missed my point you have hit on another good point.

Which is, the situation being what it is, Rank seems to serve no purpose. I meant to look this up in Infinite Insights and post from it, but Rank seems to serve no purpose in Kenpo as a measure of skill. It seems only to serve a purpose now relative to Position as I mentioned earlier. For example, from this board and others I know that there are several people I will seek seminars from, not because of their Rank, but because of their reputation and expertise.

I think Mr. Hancock perpetuates this idea. I think in the Journey he said that "Rank is your instructor's opinion of you." So this being the case, now that we don't have the same instructor (Mr. Parker) Rank doesn't hold any value outside of your organization/school.

Maybe this is how it should be anyway. I know I was told never to wear my belt outside the studio unless I was at a tournament, training camp or seminar in uniform. I still get irritated when I see kids wearing their belts to the grocery store... but it is advertising I suppose.

I think this topic may also deserve it's own thread but I won't do it. I think the "meaning of Rank" is a bit different from "how you get it" which was my original question. I suppose there is no way to discuss one without the other.
:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by cdhall
Rank doesn't hold any value outside of your organization/school.

Bingo. So the next time you see someone get all bent out of shape because they don't feel they are getting the respect they deserve because of their rank at a seminar tell them to chill.

I am starting a movement to have people discard their rank and work from information base alone.

...we all know it'll never work...

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Bingo. So the next time you see someone get all bent out of shape because they don't feel they are getting the respect they deserve because of their rank at a seminar tell them to chill.

I am starting a movement to have people discard their rank and work from information base alone.

...we all know it'll never work...

Gou,

You are wild. JKD based systems do it. No rank, but classifications. Apprentice instructor or Phase 1,2 etc... instructor, Modern Arnis does the same thing I think.

I think there are some folks out there that have a problem with authority and classifications that rank people at different levels. That's cool. Find someone who doesn't use them for you (like systema I guess), but let everyone else do there thing.

I admit some of my favorite martial arts instructors, James Keating, Kelly Worden, Dan Inosanto don't wear belts. They show what they know. At the same time, everytime I've seen Sigung LaBounty or Sibok Kelly or Mr Huk Planas put on their belts there was never any doubt that those belts belonged around their waists, and I know they could still kick *ss if they were just standing in their underwear.

People have been burned by folks that wouldn't give them rank when they deserved it and that is unfortunate, but don't let it harden your mind to the process when done properly (which is subjective) if you can help it.

Your Bro, jb:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I know, I'm just letting my sarcasm out. I love EPAK and the way people are treating it lately, well, it just kills me. if we could just remove the politics I am sure it'd get rid of the crap that it's brought and stop the art from being made into the next TKD.

By the way, I have seen Huk in his undies and yes he can kick butt no matter what he's wearing. Of course at the time I think I was wearing my underwear on my head with my sunglasses on and we were drinking Canadian Whiskey.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Gou Ronin
Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???
Really, it's not like Dennis is suffering, at least I don't think he is, from not having high rank.

No, I'm not hurting by having the low rank of 6th Degree (it didn't stop me from learning when I was a 5th and it wont stop me now or at 7th either)......... except that I need more students to study the Art vs just talking about it.:rofl:

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



No, I'm not hurting by having the low rank of 6th Degree (it didn't stop me from learning when I was a 5th and it wont stop me now or at 7th either)......... except that I need more students to study the Art vs just talking about it.:rofl:

:asian:

Well, just inform the board that the assimilation of West "By God" Virginia has begun!

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


...except that I need more students to study the Art vs just talking about it.:rofl:

:asian:

If Mr. Duffy wasn't so close (30mins away...) to me, I'd let you drive over here and teach me.


But I think the point has already been made indirectly.

We don't study the same system anymore. If Rank is your instructor's opinion of you, then when we were all students of Mr. Parker (either directly or indirectly because we were 2nd/3rd... Generation students) your rank reflected Mr. Parker' opinion of you.

After his death everyone got a new instructor. Some people took themselves to be their own instructor because they were self-correcting perhaps (which is the goal of Kenpo anyway) and thougth "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever. I think that in Infinite Insightst Mr. Parker says that once you have become self-correcting you only need an instructor to introduce new concepts. I guess some of the Seniors think they are done?

By the way, is it true that Mr. Parker used 2 bars with a black stripe in between to indicate there was room for improvement? It seems that otherwise one solid red bar would have indicated 10th.

OK, back to the topic. If you only need an instructor to introduce new material then I guess you are in a pickle if you don't know anyone who has new material you want. I can see how this would cause a 1st Generation student to stay independent.

I think that until someone comes along like Mr. Parker and demonstrates beyond question that they have more skill and expertise than Everybody, that there is no chance of "unifying" Kenpo "again."

In the mean time, out of humility perhaps, many people have sought out an instructor just to keep them honest in their training. This is a good goal and a function of an instructor. Also, some of the seniors have decided to stay at 9th and I think they did this for a few reasons such as:
1. They recognize that Mr. Parker knew stuff and had skills at the time of his death that they do not yet have
2. They want to grant Mr. Parker a distinction to recognize his superior skill and a way to do this is to maintain that he is and will continue to be better than you are by means of not claiming either his same Rank or Position
3. They want to demonstrate both that they do not know everything yet, and that they are still seeking knowlege and one way to do this is to keep a carrot like another stripe (10th for example) out in front of them as both a symbol and a reminder that they are not there yet.

If I have not made any false assumptions then I've now got my answer. This is it. I'm with Gou now (more or less). Mr. Parker is not around to look at my belt and gague my progress so my belt has no real meaning to anyone but my teacher and my fellow students in my own school, who may look to me for assistance.

This also helps me estimate the value of a Black Belt so I'm glad this thread has served a purpose. I originally wanted to learn what Mr. Parker was teaching, but Mr. Duffy is using the 16 Technique curriculum
http://www.akfkenpo.com/curriculum/index.html
and so while the material is all there, the Ranks are not the same, so they don't "mean" the same thing. I've been having some trouble with this.

But now I "remember" that the only thing that really matters is what you are learning, how it works and how good you are at it. Of course, you need a good instructor. Since I have a good instructor and he is teaching good material I think I'm in good shape now.

I think the Rank thing is a symptom of the disentegration of the Kenpo Family. We can no longer get together at a function as students of Mr. Parker and estimate our selves in relation to each other. This is sad. I think a lot of people feel this way and it is likely the source of most all debate over rank, and even position.

I think it demonstrates that we would all be "happier" if we could get back together again and share Kenpo and get better, but it is too bad. Rank has lost a lot of its previous luster in that it is no longer a uniform International standard (since Mr. Parker is not our teacher), but it does now continue to serve many of its original purposes, such as
-allowing your instructor look out onto the mat and see who's where in the curriculum
-allowing your fellow classmates to look around and see who might know move "x" well enough to help them with it
-allowing a student to chart their progress through their instructor's material.

Thanks guys. Let me know if I got any of this wrong. But I think I got it.
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
We don't study the same system anymore. If Rank is your instructor's opinion of you, then when we were all students of Mr. Parker (either directly or indirectly because we were 2nd/3rd... Generation students) your rank reflected Mr. Parker' opinion of you.

Wrong, you have several misconceptions................. we do study the same system..... but you do get the interpretation of your current instructor thrown in.

Your rank "IS" your instructor's opinion of where he views you... "YOUR IMMEDIATE INSTRUCTOR" NOT Mr. Parker or anyone else.

You were "never" a "STUDENT" of Mr. Parkers! Yes, you were under his lineage but your Instructor was "always" Mr. Duffy (who studied with His instructor of the time). Your rank NEVER reflected Mr. Parkers opinion of you (unless he tested you for a specific rank) but rather your current instructor or testing board.

After his death everyone got a new instructor.

Unfortunately ...... no not "everyone" got a new instructor, and at his death many didn't have definite instructors then.

Some people took themselves to be their own instructor because they were self-correcting perhaps (which is the goal of Kenpo anyway) and thought "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever.

Many took the opportunity to be their own instructor and do exactly as they wish (properly or not). Everyone should become self correcting to some degree at some point but many do not have the time in grade and maturity to be able to do this, thus you DO get the attitude...... "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever I want to be and justify it however they want.

I think that in Infinite Insights Mr. Parker says that once you have become self-correcting you only need an instructor to introduce new concepts.

Show me ........."Where"..... in the Infinite Insights it says "when you become self correcting you only need an instructor to introduce you to new concepts"?

I guess some of the Seniors think they are done?

Only the ones that don't understand what Ed Parker's American Kenpo is really about. The Good ones realize they have much to explore, expand, and share!

By the way, is it true that Mr. Parker used 2 bars with a black stripe in between to indicate there was room for improvement? It seems that otherwise one solid red bar would have indicated 10th.

He always said there was room for improvement....:rofl: but the stripes were Logic in process..... you have a stripe for 1st thru 4th Black.... he didn't want to continue having just stripes up the belt...(which he did initially) but then got the idea for a 5" "bar" for 5th. Once you went to 6th it was only "logical" that you add just another 1/2" stripe for 6th thru 9th, till 10th... then you add another 5" Bar! Thus making his own unique rank deionization for HIS Art of EPAK. No one else used that except us. There are copy cats today.

OK, back to the topic. If you only need an instructor to introduce new material then I guess you are in a pickle if you don't know anyone who has new material you want. I can see how this would cause a 1st Generation student to stay independent.

Which is why this is not true. There is always someone that knows more than you ....... your job is to seek and find, not sit and stagnate through the disguise of independence. Now go start digging!!

I think that until someone comes along like Mr. Parker and demonstrates beyond question that they have more skill and expertise than Everybody, that there is no chance of "unifying" Kenpo "again."

LOL, What are you talking about........ Kenpo was not unified in the first place!!! It would not take a person as Unique as Mr. Parker to accomplish this, it would take the cooperation of several Individuals that want to work collectively to a common goal, if that is necessary.

In the mean time, out of humility perhaps, many people have sought out an instructor just to keep them honest in their training.

I don't think it is out of Humility or to keep honest, but rather the smart ones seek out "Senior Instructors" that have more knowledge than themselves so as to continue to learn and advance adequately in Ed Parkers American Kenpo.

Some of the seniors have decided to stay at 9th and I think they did this for a few reasons such as:
1. They recognize that Mr. Parker knew stuff and had skills at the time of his death that they do not yet have
2. They want to grant Mr. Parker a distinction to recognize his superior skill and a way to do this is to maintain that he is and will continue to be better than you are by means of not claiming either his same Rank or Position
3. They want to demonstrate both that they do not know everything yet, and that they are still seeking knowledge and one way to do this is to keep a carrot like another stripe (10th for example) out in front of them as both a symbol and a reminder that they are not there yet.

I think some are just putting in time and will eventually become 10ths at some point......... others "out of respect" will never take a 10th. Both thoughts have merit. Mr. Parker did say that there could be another 10th but also meant that it should be attained in the proper manner and not lightly or cheaply acquired without credibility.

Not having rank DOES NOT mean that an individual does not know what he/she is doing. I can show you several examples where there are extremely high rankers that do NOT have as much knowledge as several lower Black Belts have.

Remember the words of Ed Parker himself ..... "Although belt colors show, it is no proof that you know". Likewise, just because the belt doesn't show is no indication that the don't know either!!

All the True/Great upper ranks or Seniors (as the new terminology today labels) ..... Are all students and will tell you that they are learning right along with you (just at a different level and different areas).

I'm with Gou now (more or less). Mr. Parker is not around to look at my belt and gauge my progress so my belt has no real meaning to anyone but my teacher and my fellow students in my own school, who may look to me for assistance.

I'm not so sure that is what Gou is saying, but I disagree with your statement....... Mr. Parker is NOT around to look at your belt and gage your progress..... but your instructor is -- and that is who matters. Based upon his opinion the rest of us can gage that you are in a particular area of knowledge (brown) nothing specific mind you because we may all have differing opinions of what skill and knowledge is but a "general idea" of "about" where in the martial arts world you should stand. So of course it "HAS MEANING" to others but not as much as in your immediate circle and studio.

I originally wanted to learn what Mr. Parker was teaching, but Mr. Duffy is using the 16 Technique curriculum
http://www.akfkenpo.com/curriculum/index.html
and so while the material is all there, the Ranks are not the same, so they don't "mean" the same thing. I've been having some trouble with this.

So, Mr. Duffy is NOT teaching you what Mr. Parker was teaching? I'll have you know that Mr. Parker "liked the 16 technique curriculum" that Brian had started to work on and that was shared with several others myself included, and have stated before that if Mr. Parker were alive today, I believe that everyone would be using it. You Grossly misunderstand what you are learning. (Doug, sometimes I want to just kick you!!! :jediduel: just wait till I get you at camp), The Ranks ARE the same and they DO mean the same, the ONLY difference is that they are extended into Black belt a bit farther(the same way in which the 24 curriculum extended the 32 system from green into 3rd Black because we needed Black material).

I don't understand what "Trouble" you are having but you are wasting time and energy and should be working on the material itself and not worry about what was more on what is!! Redirect your energies LUKE use the force...... before I have to on you!!

But now I "remember" that the only thing that really matters is what you are learning, how it works and how good you are at it. Of course, you need a good instructor. Since I have a good instructor and he is teaching good material I think I'm in good shape now.

Oh, so now you are just realizing what I said...... quit the babbling. You do have a great instructor and he is teaching great material.

I think the Rank thing is a symptom of the disintegration of the Kenpo Family. We can no longer get together at a function as students of Mr. Parker and estimate our selves in relation to each other. This is sad. I think a lot of people feel this way and it is likely the source of most all debate over rank, and even position.

Nope, rank is rank, it has always been and always be a subjective topic, it serves its purpose locally and publicly when needed, problem is ........ too many "FOCUS ON JUST RANK" and not the knowledge, skill, or uniqueness of the individual...... If you are a white thru green you are in the beginning phase, if a brown in an intermediate phase, and Black you are considered in an advanced phase........ exactly "where" in that phase is arbitrary and doesn't really matter. This is not sad today nor has it ever been. Possibly you desire exact placement when in a group or crowd..... hmmmmmmmm hard to do that it is (nose wrinkles). This is most definitely the source of debate over rank and position...... and will continue to be... so don't waste any time in this room.

I think it demonstrates that we would all be "happier" if we could get back together again and share Kenpo and get better, but it is too bad.

Hmmmmmm, Now I'm confused...... don't we do that now anyway at camps and seminars and individually when we get together and YES even here on the web (I feel everyone is happy-- correct me if I'm wrong) ...... Gezzzzzze you are worse off than I originally thought ..... try Prozac or call your Dr.

Rank has lost a lot of its previous luster in that it is no longer a uniform International standard (since Mr. Parker is not our teacher),

I will let Mr. Duffy know that your rank is lackluster, since there is no "INTERNATIONAL STANDARD", by the way...... psssssssttttttt (never has been one). Even when Mr. Parker was alive... there was variances in quality within ranks. You need to be schooled more in value within rank, all its variances and why.

Rank does continue to serve many of its original purposes, such as:
-allowing your instructor look out onto the mat and see who's where in the curriculum
-allowing your fellow classmates to look around and see who might know move "x" well enough to help them with it
-allowing a student to chart their progress through their instructor's material.

Ahhhhhhh you are quite observant weedhopper!!

Thanks. Let me know if I got any of this wrong. But I think I got it.

I just did. Although I doubt you "get it" at all.

But I did try. (now I know why tigers eat their young)!!
;D


:asian::asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Leave me outa this one guys!

Dennis and I have different interpretations of rank and belts.
:shrug:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by cdhall



Thanks guys. Let me know if I got any of this wrong. But I think I got it.
:asian:

Dude,

Too... much... typing.... brain is about to explode....

Break up those thoughts into digestible chuncks.


I guess I sort of see what your saying...at other schools they have all extensions by 3rd Black, right? Is this that big of a deal?

jb:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Show me ........."Where"..... in the Infinite Insights it says "when you become self correcting you only need an instructor to introduce you to new concepts"?

:asian::asian:

Vol 1, p. 98, paragraph 10, 4th line from the bottom:
"At this level, an instructor is not needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."
:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Mr. C said (I can't get the quote to work properly)
"You Grossly misunderstand what you are learning. (Doug, sometimes I want to just kick you!!! just wait till I get you at camp)"

Doug continues:
Sir, I agree with you about the 16 technique Curriculum. I have no significant disagreement with you.

Also let me say that when I said "unify" Kenpo "again" the quotes were meant to show that this was not literal.
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
Vol 1, p. 98, paragraph 10, 4th line from the bottom:"At this level, an instructor is not needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."

But you were talking about "self correcting" not one that may alter concepts.....

Silly rabbit..

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



But you were talking about "self correcting" not one that may alter concepts.....

Silly rabbit..

:asian:

I'm sorry sir, this is not working very well for me. I am not trying to irritate you or be disrespectful of your time or expertise, but the previous 2 sentences add to the point as follows:

"With conceptual logic learned at the correct level of student maturity, self-correction, because of properly learned concepts, becomes automatic. A student can then logically rule out any contradictory concepts that conflict with his or her advance training. At this level, an instructor is not needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."

I took that as one train of thought.
:asian: