Requirements for 10th Degree

[KenpoIsIt]

Greetings Everyone

After reading the thread regarding the large number of 10th degrees we have in American Kenpo, I noticed that many of you are quite passionate about the issue.

I propose that all of us put our ideas together and come up with what you might consider or would like to consider requirements for the 10th degree.

Let us begin...

1. Time at the art.
2. Contributions to the art.
3.
4.

 

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
I propose that all of us put our ideas together and come up with what you might consider or would like to consider requirements for the 10th degree.
[/B]

Let us begin...

1. Time at the art.
2. Contributions to the art.
3. a communal agreegment of a jury of thier peers. as well as Masters or GM's of other systems. I.E. Recognition, verification, and validation.
4.

Allthough I think that it's a bit to late to try and assemble a list of standards that we "lowly" people think someone of this caliber and experience should be held to, it is an intriguing idea. My two cents, for what it's worth.... That and a couple of bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Have a Nice Day!! :asian: :asian:

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

1. Time at the art.
2. Contributions to the art.
-Dedication and duty to students
-Loyalty and duty to instructor
-Dedication to the positive growth of the art
3. Innovations within the base system.
-New methods of transfering knowledge from teacher to student
-New material to internalize skills
-Expanding the system into ALL aspects of combat
4. A life-long commitment to the art and system as one's life work.


:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
Greetings Everyone

After reading the thread regarding the large number of 10th degrees we have in American Kenpo, I noticed that many of you are quite passionate about the issue.

I propose that all of us put our ideas together and come up with what you might consider or would like to consider requirements for the 10th degree.

Let us begin...

1. Time at the art.
2. Contributions to the art.
3.
4.

Big set of brass love nugets :rofl:

 

[kenpo3631]

and a Teflon butt cover, don't forget the ballistic back panel for the back stabbing too... :shrug: :rofl:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
1. Time at the art.
Also quality.
2. Contributions to the art.
-Dedication and duty to students
-Loyalty and duty to instructor
-Dedication to the positive growth of the art
Quality of the students. If they aren't good teachers, they shouldn't be 10ths
3. Innovations within the base system.
-New methods of transfering knowledge from teacher to student
-New material to internalize skills
-Expanding the system into ALL aspects of combat
4. A life-long commitment to the art and system as one's life work.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Although I think all of the stuff that has been previously mentioned is important (including the "ballistic back panel" :sniper: )

I think that student ability should be considered, as well as innovation in the art.

There are a large number of technicians in our little world, but not many that I would refer to as innovators.

 

[Kirk]

30 years of training after receiving your black belt.

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kirk
30 years of training after receiving your black belt.

That's it? Tell me you're kidding......you ARE kidding, right?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
That's it? Tell me you're kidding......you ARE kidding, right?

Nope. Not one bit. Once you've learned the entire system, then
what? Mostly, it's time in the art. You should test on that
material every 3 years, and if you can still peform it with the level
expected of a black belt while factoring in age, then you've gained
experience through training, and wisdom through living and
teaching the art.

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kirk
Nope. Not one bit. Once you've learned the entire system, then
what? Mostly, it's time in the art. You should test on that
material every 3 years, and if you can still peform it with the level
expected of a black belt while factoring in age, then you've gained
experience through training, and wisdom through living and
teaching the art.

Your previous statement comewhat contadicts your initial response. However, I have to disagree with the latter on a couple of points....

I once heard someone say that the levels of black belt are very much like the levels of servanthood; the higher your rank, the more you give back to the art and it's practitioners. To me, that is what makes a Senior in the art; not just time put in, but time used in giving back.

 

[Brother John]

I think that those listed thus far are good for maybe 9th
But I think that 10th should be reserved for those who've made a unique system.
That's one reason that I feel Mr. Mills deserves 10th as he does.
Your Brother
John

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
Your previous statement comewhat contadicts your initial response. However, I have to disagree with the latter on a couple of points....

I once heard someone say that the levels of black belt are very much like the levels of servanthood; the higher your rank, the more you give back to the art and it's practitioners. To me, that is what makes a Senior in the art; not just time put in, but time used in giving back.

I don't really have a problem with what you stated, if that's the
case, then so be it, I wouldn't say a word of objection ... but
where is it written that somebody can't study the art on their
own, for their own well being? Why do they HAVE to teach?

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kirk
I don't really have a problem with what you stated, if that's the
case, then so be it, I wouldn't say a word of objection ... but
where is it written that somebody can't study the art on their
own, for their own well being? Why do they HAVE to teach?

Noone said they did. However, if 10th degree black belts are lifelong givers, teachers, and growers of the art, then why should someone who does not wish to give back to the art ascent to such status?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Brother John
I think that those listed thus far are good for maybe 9th
But I think that 10th should be reserved for those who've made a unique system.
That's one reason that I feel Mr. Mills deserves 10th as he does.
Your Brother
John

Again, I don't have much of an objection, but in that case, you'd
probably have and endless supply of new arts, and you'd
eventually whittle the art down to non existance. I have no beef
with Mr Mills, never met him or seen him move. But you gotta
admit that not everyone has the capability to analyze and
revamp. And do you really think that Mr Parker wanted his kenpo
to dissapear? Did he put so much effort into his art analyzing,
studying, designing a new way to present it, and teach it, so that
it'd exist for ONE generation?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
Noone said they did. However, if 10th degree black belts are lifelong givers, teachers, and growers of the art, then why should someone who does not wish to give back to the art ascent to such status?

Okay .. lemme rephrase it then ... what if he taught only 5 students at a time, and produced throughout the years, say ....
30 black belts?

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kirk
Again, I don't have much of an objection, but in that case, you'd
probably have and endless supply of new arts, and you'd
eventually whittle the art down to non existance. I have no beef
with Mr Mills, never met him or seen him move. But you gotta
admit that not everyone has the capability to analyze and
revamp. And do you really think that Mr Parker wanted his kenpo
to dissapear? Did he put so much effort into his art analyzing,
studying, designing a new way to present it, and teach it, so that
it'd exist for ONE generation?

I think what Brutha J was getting at was, not trying creating a new system, but creating a new system from EXPANDING on the base ( which, in the case, is Ed Parker's Kenpo ). To understand this, you must understand the structure of the Kenpo system, and you'll see that ( I can only speak for the AKKI on this ) nothing is taken out, but rather expanded upon.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
I think what Brutha J was getting at was, not trying creating a new system, but creating a new system from EXPANDING on the base ( which, in the case, is Ed Parker's Kenpo ). To understand this, you must understand the structure of the Kenpo system, and you'll see that ( I can only speak for the AKKI on this ) nothing is taken out, but rather expanded upon.

Then hey, cool. But again, if I have the ability to only teach what
I've been taught, and one of my students has the ability to
expand upon it and turns it into something really awesome, then
am I not deserving of a 10th?

The only thing I fear from 10ths being given is that you KNOW
eventually .. somebody's gonna claim an 11th

 

[Brother John]

"where is it written that somebody can't study the art on their
own, for their own well being? Why do they HAVE to teach?"

Sorry Kirk, it wouldn't quote the whole thing, had to just cut and paste.

MOST study for their own benefit, and thats WONDERFUL.
BUT the degree's past 5th are not for the benefit of the instructor, but for the benefit of those that the 6th-10th teach/lead. If one is doing it for ones self alone, then 5th degree should be more than enough for them as further rank would be meaningless for them anyway. Therefore 6th-10th are for the leaders/instructors only... that's why 10th should be the ultimate instructor/leader.

Your next quote:
"Again, I don't have much of an objection, but in that case, you'd
probably have and endless supply of new arts, and you'd
eventually whittle the art down to non existance."

I don't understand.
Why "non-existance"? If an art is influential and "powerful" enough to lead to and inspire a whole new art, why would that original cease to be? I just don't see the logic you are using. Not to say you're not using some, I just don't see it. Besides, very very very few have what it takes to be able to create/inovate/expand on even a simple martial art.... let alone one as complex/sophisticated as American Kenpo Karate!!!! Mr. Mills is a VERY VERY rare breed indeed! Only ones who are worthy of their following will create anything that lasts anyway, such as Mr. Mills. Without that following... their art would die due to atrition alone. IF they DO have that following, it should be desered and be an indication of their worth (10th).

Your next quote:
"Then hey, cool. But again, if I have the ability to only teach what
I've been taught, and one of my students has the ability to
expand upon it and turns it into something really awesome, then
am I not deserving of a 10th? "
NO.

Euclid wouldn't have fathomed the Theorum of Pythagoras. Pythagoras doesn't deserve Sir Isaac Newton's teaching possition, and Newton didn't deserve Einstein's Degree's and acclaim.... Neither had Einstein come to understand nor master what Hawkins has published. Hawkins learned from what Einstein had given, Einstein owed a great deal to Newton, Newton spent a great deal of his life mastering Pythagorian work and Pythagoras also owed his career to Euclid.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Standing on the shoulders of GIANTS, increases OUR height, but the giant is still the same height. Mr. Mills owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to his instructor; Mr. Parker, for all he had given him and even more for what he inspired him to be... anyone even mildly close to Mr. Mills KNOWS this full-well...... but what Mr. Parker inspired Mr. Mills to do was to "go on from here". Mr. Parker would have told anyone, I think, that Kenpo wasn't even near where he wanted it to be. Mr. Mills and a scant few others have "gone on".

"When attempting to emulate a great man, do not try to walk in his footsteps... rather, seek what he saught."
Mr. Parker "sought" Perfection (truth) in Kenpo.
So does Mr. Mills.

as I see it.
Hope & Pray I made sense...
Your Brother
John

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Brother John
"where is it written that somebody can't study the art on their
own, for their own well being? Why do they HAVE to teach?"

Sorry Kirk, it wouldn't quote the whole thing, had to just cut and paste.

MOST study for their own benefit, and thats WONDERFUL.
BUT the degree's past 5th are not for the benefit of the instructor, but for the benefit of those that the 6th-10th teach/lead. If one is doing it for ones self alone, then 5th degree should be more than enough for them as further rank would be meaningless for them anyway. Therefore 6th-10th are for the leaders/instructors only... that's why 10th should be the ultimate instructor/leader.

Your next quote:
"Again, I don't have much of an objection, but in that case, you'd
probably have and endless supply of new arts, and you'd
eventually whittle the art down to non existance."

I don't understand.
Why "non-existance"? If an art is influential and "powerful" enough to lead to and inspire a whole new art, why would that original cease to be? I just don't see the logic you are using. Not to say you're not using some, I just don't see it. Besides, very very very few have what it takes to be able to create/inovate/expand on even a simple martial art.... let alone one as complex/sophisticated as American Kenpo Karate!!!! Mr. Mills is a VERY VERY rare breed indeed! Only ones who are worthy of their following will create anything that lasts anyway, such as Mr. Mills. Without that following... their art would die due to atrition alone. IF they DO have that following, it should be desered and be an indication of their worth (10th).

Your next quote:
"Then hey, cool. But again, if I have the ability to only teach what
I've been taught, and one of my students has the ability to
expand upon it and turns it into something really awesome, then
am I not deserving of a 10th? "
NO.

Euclid wouldn't have fathomed the Theorum of Pythagoras. Pythagoras doesn't deserve Sir Isaac Newton's teaching possition, and Newton didn't deserve Einstein's Degree's and acclaim.... Neither had Einstein come to understand nor master what Hawkins has published. Hawkins learned from what Einstein had given, Einstein owed a great deal to Newton, Newton spent a great deal of his life mastering Pythagorian work and Pythagoras also owed his career to Euclid.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Standing on the shoulders of GIANTS, increases OUR height, but the giant is still the same height. Mr. Mills owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to his instructor; Mr. Parker, for all he had given him and even more for what he inspired him to be... anyone even mildly close to Mr. Mills KNOWS this full-well...... but what Mr. Parker inspired Mr. Mills to do was to "go on from here". Mr. Parker would have told anyone, I think, that Kenpo wasn't even near where he wanted it to be. Mr. Mills and a scant few others have "gone on".

"When attempting to emulate a great man, do not try to walk in his footsteps... rather, seek what he saught."
Mr. Parker "sought" Perfection (truth) in Kenpo.
So does Mr. Mills.

as I see it.
Hope & Pray I made sense...
Your Brother
John

Great post brother!