Youth Black Belts

[NPTKD]

:BSmeter:

You know, I watch alot of T.V. and have sat thru a lot of movie. With that said. I never thought that I could disarm a bomb,become a spy,Fly, conduct an operation on a person, become a jedi or a super hero. But if I sat in enough dojangs judging kids.... Well than maybe just maybe... who knows! You are all BB in my eyes.

 

[ATC]

:BSmeter:

Hey Mr.!!! Your meter is broken...

.

Funny!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This why I posted this thread. I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).

It is not a quesiton of deserving. If a ten year old meets the criteria set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the standards of that particular school. A poom rank student technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar. Many schools choose to put them in black belts. That is a school decision.

I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color. If you are a poom rank, you are not a yudanja. If you are a dan rank holder, then you are. What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you and that school.

The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.

Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not. It also depends on the nature of the class.

The criteria that i posted is to high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going

Actually it is not too high. Personally, that is what I feel the blackbelt criteria should be. But different teachers and schools have different philosophies from my own.

I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school. I would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they are a kid.

I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice. But that is a different story.

What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general

Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they spar against other kids and break thinner boards.

The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a dan rank. No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

terryl965 - You've put a lot of effort into discrediting my son's credentials

I do not believe I have done that and if you believe that I have than I am truely sorry.:asian:

Wow, strike a nerve? Ok, Ok, he's a Poom... I'll let ya know what his organization certificate says when we get it.

Did not strike a nerve just stating the facts, you said he was getting a KKW certificate and that will read poom not Dan, sorry if I was trying to educate.

What rank are you in Tae Kwon Do? I only ask because it was a well respected 9th (yes, Kukkiwon certified) that determined the rank of my son, and I'd like to know your knowledge of TKD to make these judgments.

I am currently a 5th, this also includes the 15 years I decided not to test for my own reason. I have been in Martial arts since the age of birth started back in 1964 and have been going since so I believe I have some time in as well. I am not saying your child did not deserve his rank just that the rank is a poom and if your instructor is a highly 9th Dan KKW than he knows this a s well.





I'm not a slave driver, the 5 day 4 hour workouts were split into 2 hour segments and took place for 3 weeks prior to the tournament. And my son wanted to train more then he did.

You did not say this in the previous post and if you would have I understand training double time before a tournament we all do. You made it sound like he was doing this all the time. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

Too late.

Well I gues I am sorry you feel that way, maybe one day we can have a beer and laugh about this. One thing the Martial Art has tought me ove rthe years we can dis-agree and still have a common bound the Art.


As to why he hasn't done more national tournaments... He's only 9! He'll continue to do local and state tournaments over the next couple of years, then compete in some regional events and keep progressing. There's no point in pushing him now.

You are right it is your decission and not mine just saying with all that talent he maybe able to make a Natioanal Team and even the Olympics one day and the one thing that helps is knowing when and how to play the political game on the circuit for this to happen, especially know with the way teams are being picked.


Also - it's really no business of anyones, but another reason for not entering some of these other tourny's is that his school's GM is not a believer in TKD as a sport. His school used to be very competitive but he saw the whole process becoming very political. He went back to a more traditional teaching. He actually doesn't approve of "outside" competitions. This is a serious issue for us, because we know how good he is and what he's capable of. It could come down to changing schools, though we're hoping it doesn't get that far... if might have to.

I can appreciate this I too sometimes get pissed off about the whole tournament issue, so I can feel your instructor pain. I am also sorry to hear you maybe changing school, sinc eloyalty is a big part of TKD. Your son has gotten so far with his current Instructor it maybe a shame to loose that bond that has been formed already. I hope the best and hope you can stay with the current teacher for as long as possible.:asian:

 

[TKD_Father]

I'm done.

I see your a 4th Dan terryl965 congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.

Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.

I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.

 

[dancingalone]

:BSmeter:

You know, I watch alot of T.V. and have sat thru a lot of movie. With that said. I never thought that I could disarm a bomb,become a spy,Fly, conduct an operation on a person, become a jedi or a super hero. But if I sat in enough dojangs judging kids.... Well than maybe just maybe... who knows! You are all BB in my eyes.

Well, that analogy is off the wall. I don't think anyone said you could learn how to be James Bond or Superman from watching tv. I certainly didn't. What I do believe is that even a non-martial artist can look at a person's TKD technique and tell whether it is good or not even without training. Things like fluidity, snap, speed, and power are universal. You don't have to be a grandmaster to recognize those characteristics. Granted, it would be tough for a layman to compare two outstanding TKDists and rank them 1 and 2, but that's not the scenario I describe. I argue that a layperson can readily recognize "black belt" technique along the lines of "I know it when I see it".

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow, strike a nerve? Ok, Ok, he's a Poom... I'll let ya know what his organization certificate says when we get it.

Your son earned a black belt, so congrats!

As to what ages are awarded a Kukkiwon poom or a dan, the Kukkwon has a chart and accompanying regulations which can be viewed here: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

First poom is a worthy accomplishment. Poom ranks convert to dan ranks upon the student turning fifteen and paperwork being filed by a fourth dan or higher instructor. No retest is required at that point.

Students can advance up to a fourth poom, though only up to third convert to dan before eighteen, while fourth poom must be eighteen or older to convert.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

I'm done.

I see your a 4th Dan terryl965 congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.

Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.

I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.

Well I am a 5th and my web master will get it updated, see rank means nothing to me really. Knowledge means more, as far as me being dis-respectful when? I have just pointed out a few things and you are being judgemental about the converstation. I have in no way been judgemental about your sone if anything I am giving you some good advice about taking your son to the next level. The forum is one of the best for decusssion and I thought that is what we was doing? I am sorry if you fell you was being judge by me, not the case but we all must read what we want from a message board, I hope your son continues to grow and do well both on the matt and in life. I wish you the best to. As far a a 9th degree goes I give respect to all but that does not mean I have to agree with all, there is a a difference and we live in a country that allows us o be this way.:asian:

 

[ATC]

I'm done.

I see your a 4th Dan terryl965 congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.

Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.

I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.

Hummm...I only see everyone debating what they feel, it just happened that you put your son out there as a reference. You stated that he got his BB after 3 years and then stated that he was one of the best if not the best.

I do not think Terry was attacking you or your son personally but used your references to make his counter points. I can see how that may come across as an attack if you do not know the context of the points being made.

As for you son I am sure he is very good. But with millions of kids across this land doing the same thing I am sure that there are many just as good and some better.

I think my son and daughter are the greatest things since sliced bread too, and both have won at the national level. But both have also lost. You can only truly get better after losing. Your son will see that one day.

I know you are proud of your son, as we all are proud of our own...hell look at my signature. But maybe you could tone down the DAD pride just a little and you would not feel as you do now and neither would Terry. I am sure he meant no disrespect at all.

 

[terryl965]

I am absolutely sorry if you feel this way. I do not mean to say anything about another child. I was just telling and voice my opinion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To be fair, this tends to be a very polarizing subject. The competing points of veiw are parental pride, old timers trying to hold up the standards, and those who feel that everyone should have a shot at the belt, regardless of age or physical capability.

Not saying that any one POV is right or wrong. I think that the best way to view it is to accept that outside of one's own school, rank is fairly meaningless. Even within the same organization, different schools promote for different reasons.

Some will only promote champions. Some only promote based on one's ability to defend themselves. Some promote based on hard work and personal growth. None are inherently wrong, but each represents a different kind of accomplishment.

Regarding Terry, I think that I can safely say that he is a strong proponent of kids in taekwondo and would not (and is not) questioning any child's qualifications for their rank or belt.

That said, let us all keep in mind that as many of us have fairly strong opinions on the subject, we need to make sure to post to what is actually being said and double check our own posts before clicking submit.

That is directed to everyone, by the way, so if you feel singled out, you are not.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Sure Daniel nobody is being pointed too

, one thing you said was we should reread our post. You are right it is hard to fully say on paper what one truely could say in person. I train alot of childern and adults and believe me I have more childern than adult that deserve the rank. I wish we could all see the same views but that would be boring. Lets get back to the original thread.


I believe that each school has a set or criteria they use and that is what the difference maybe. In school like high school teacher have a guidline that musst be followed but they can add certain things inside the classroom. I know I do when teaching Math to the kids. Without the young childern of today martial arts would suffer dearly we need them, no doubt about it.

 

[Twin Fist]

9 years old?

he isnt a Black Belt, in any way shape or form.

And if your school gave him a Dan rank at 9? well, i got nothing good to say about them.

I wont even TAKE students under 8. and NO ONE is getting a BB from me in less than 3 years, unless they had extensive prior training. Like Black Belt level prior training. A CHILD getting a BB in 3 years?

congrats, you belong to a belt factory

 

[Twin Fist]

I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

hey, just because you have an opinion doesnt mean it will be agreed with or respected.

some things are just wrong, like 9 year old BB's

 

[Gorilla]

My point is, is that you started this threat because you have been sitting in some poor guy's waiting room thinking to yourself that " that kid doesn't deserve that black belt" or " my kid is better then that" or something along that line. You probably aren't happy with something with your childs school. So my opion stand. You are in no position to make the call. These kids spend coutless hours working toward s goal, does that not count for something? Not to say that if you show up you get the rank, but come on!

NPTKD,

First, I do not sit in a waiting room at a Dojang. My son and daughter are members of a competition team in Las Vegas. The Coach/Master is a very good friend of mine and we travel all over the country together. Our team has 2 AAU National Team Members 1 is my daughter she is a JR and 1 USAT National (B) Team member he lost to Mark Lopez at the most recent National Team Trials. We also had 2 bantam weights qualify for that event also but failed to make the top 2. My daughter most recently won a bronze medal at the USAT Nationals JR (FIN) and will be fighting in Mid August to make the USAT National Team. By the way, we also qualified 4 from our team for the AAU team trials in Fort Lauderdale this year.

Our Team trains 2 hours per day Monday thru Friday and 4 -6 hours per day on Saturday. We don’t have a Dojang so we are at a track 3 days a week a Rec center 3 days a week and at a high altitude for 2 hours on Saturdays. This is a group of 20 athletes who want it very bad and who believe in their coach so much that they would train in his backyard it does not matter. By the way, we are in Las Vegas it is 115 degrees in the summer.

Do not want to leave out my son he is a 2nd Poom. He is a 3-time Junior Olympic Black Belt medalist world class 1 gold 1 silver and a 1 bronze. He also one a gold in the elite division when he was eight. He lost in the quarterfinals this year good to keep him humble.

As far a, when my kids are training I usually try to exercise my self or I sit on the ground and sweat.

As you can see, I am very proud of my kids!!!

I don't think that I am qualified to make a call on who gets a BB or not just wanted to have a discussion

 

[Gorilla]

Wow this group is a fun bunch hope you are all having as much fun with this thread as I am...

 

[terryl965]

Wow this group is a fun bunch hope you are all having as much fun with this thread as I am...

I am by the way was your kids here in Irving earlier this year for the team training? If so was you. My son was there as well, Zachary was sparring against the two asian kids from Wisconsin sorry I cannot think of there names right now. If you are at all these tournament then you must know me as well. I need to look at your profile. Master Tubbs and Kunkle and Master Remnack are great instructors as well. I am having a blast with this thread too bad other are not.

 

[NPTKD]

I'm done.

I see your a 4th Dan terryl965 congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.

Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.

I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.

Well... Alot of these people like me are just trying get get a rise out of others. This is a very good site. Just don't take very thing to heart. And always remember that no matter what everyone else says.... I am the one one who opion really mean anything anyway!

 

[just2kicku]

I am not a TKDist anymore, but I gotta agree with John.

In our school you may go all the way to brown, but if your 12, that means waiting four years before you can test for black.

And child ranks are not equal to adult ranks.

TKD father, was your kid going 6 or 7 days a week to train? 3 years seems like a very short period of time.

I do not and will not ever think that it is OK for kids to get a black belt.

 

[NPTKD]

NPTKD,

First, I do not sit in a waiting room at a Dojang. My son and daughter are members of a competition team in Las Vegas. The Coach/Master is a very good friend of mine and we travel all over the country together. Our team has 2 AAU National Team Members 1 is my daughter she is a JR and 1 USAT National (B) Team member he lost to Mark Lopez at the most recent National Team Trials. We also had 2 bantam weights qualify for that event also but failed to make the top 2. My daughter most recently won a bronze medal at the USAT Nationals JR (FIN) and will be fighting in Mid August to make the USAT National Team. By the way, we also qualified 4 from our team for the AAU team trials in Fort Lauderdale this year.

Our Team trains 2 hours per day Monday thru Friday and 4 -6 hours per day on Saturday. We don’t have a Dojang so we are at a track 3 days a week a Rec center 3 days a week and at a high altitude for 2 hours on Saturdays. This is a group of 20 athletes who want it very bad and who believe in their coach so much that they would train in his backyard it does not matter. By the way, we are in Las Vegas it is 115 degrees in the summer.

Do not want to leave out my son he is a 2nd Poom. He is a 3-time Junior Olympic Black Belt medalist world class 1 gold 1 silver and a 1 bronze. He also one a gold in the elite division when he was eight. He lost in the quarterfinals this year good to keep him humble.

As far a, when my kids are training I usually try to exercise my self or I sit on the ground and sweat.

As you can see, I am very proud of my kids!!!

I don't think that I am qualified to make a call on who gets a BB or not just wanted to have a discussion

Well.... My kid was student of the month at this elementary school last year! Top that.....