Who can promote in IBJJF

[skribs136 156]

What are the rules in IBJJF as to who can perform promotions? I believe the rule is that you must be 2 grades ahead of someone to promote them. Recently I've been allowed to give stripes to kids without my Professor present...but with his permission. But I'm curious of a few things regarding rules for who can promote in IBJJF.

1. Is it correct that you must be 2 grades above someone to promote them to that grade? i.e. 2nd degree to promote to black belt, 1st degree to promote to brown, etc.?
2. What is the lowest that can promote, would it be brown promoting someone to blue?
3. What about for upper black belts, for example if you're a 4th degree can you promote someone to 3rd?
4. How do gyms usually handle if there isn't a coach available. For example, if I got my brown belt and opened a gym, who would promote my students to purple? Would it be my Professor?
5. Are stripes factored into the equation at all? For example, if a Brown belt with 3 stripes were to give a stripe promotion to a blue belt, what is the highest stripe they could give?
6. How are kids ranks factored into the equation? Is there a specific belt you need to be to promote kids to any rank? Or is it something like purple can promote white and gray, but you must be brown to promote yellow and black to promote orange and green (or something like that)?

There's a lot of information online regarding who can be promoted through IBJJF, but not a lot of information regarding who can do promotions. We've got a few folks on here that I thought might be able to answer the questions.

Or if there's anything I missed along the lines of these questions (or there's a flaw in my premise), let me know.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

I believe this has changed over the years. Based on my recent research, getting registered with the IBJJF even as a blue belt requires that you have an IBJJF-registered black belt sign off on your paperwork. That black belt would need an IBJJF-registered 2nd degree black belt to sign off on their own registration.

It's been a bit of a headache for us. Neither I nor my coach are registered with the IBJJF. When I took over the gym, I thought it might be a cool thing to get one of my black belts registered with the IBJJF in case any of our students wanted to compete in IBJJF events. I figured that we'd go through my teacher's teacher, Carlson Gracie Jr. Carlson would charge us to sign off on the paperwork, but I was willing to pay that expense.

Unfortunately, it turned out that Carlson also requires that the gym be part of his federation before he would sign off on the IBJJF paperwork.

We had one student who wanted to compete in IBJJF events as a blue belt. In order to get one of my guys registered as an IBJJF black belt to sign off on that blue belt's IBJJF registration, it would have cost:

Carlson Gracie Federation membership = $1800/year + $1500/year purchase of branded gear = $3300
paying Carlson to sign off on the paperwork = $300
$400 to the IBJJF for the initial black belt certificate + $150/year for renewal (plus miscellaneous expenses such as rules seminar certification and first aid certification)

So basically, we were looking at an upfront charge of over $4000 plus ongoing costs just so that we could send one blue belt to IBJJF tournaments. Given that we're still working on returning the gym to profitability, that just wasn't a practical option. I checked around with friends who run or have run academies in the area to see if any of them had the certification to sign off on paperwork for us, but they were all in the same boat. They either weren't IBJJF certified or had let their certification lapse because they had concluded it wasn't worth the money.

 

[skribs136 156]

I believe this has changed over the years. Based on my recent research, getting registered with the IBJJF even as a blue belt requires that you have an IBJJF-registered black belt sign off on your paperwork. That black belt would need an IBJJF-registered 2nd degree black belt to sign off on their own registration.

It's been a bit of a headache for us. Neither I nor my coach are registered with the IBJJF. When I took over the gym, I thought it might be a cool thing to get one of my black belts registered with the IBJJF in case any of our students wanted to compete in IBJJF events. I figured that we'd go through my teacher's teacher, Carlson Gracie Jr. Carlson would charge us to sign off on the paperwork, but I was willing to pay that expense.

Unfortunately, it turned out that Carlson also requires that the gym be part of his federation before he would sign off on the IBJJF paperwork.

We had one student who wanted to compete in IBJJF events as a blue belt. In order to get one of my guys registered as an IBJJF black belt to sign off on that blue belt's IBJJF registration, it would have cost:

Carlson Gracie Federation membership = $1800/year + $1500/year purchase of branded gear = $3300
paying Carlson to sign off on the paperwork = $300
$400 to the IBJJF for the initial black belt certificate + $150/year for renewal (plus miscellaneous expenses such as rules seminar certification and first aid certification)

So basically, we were looking at an upfront charge of over $4000 plus ongoing costs just so that we could send one blue belt to IBJJF tournaments. Given that we're still working on returning the gym to profitability, that just wasn't a practical option. I checked around with friends who run or have run academies in the area to see if any of them had the certification to sign off on paperwork for us, but they were all in the same boat. They either weren't IBJJF certified or had let their certification lapse because they had concluded it wasn't worth the money.

At the risk of derailing the thread...this sounds almost exactly like my problems with TKD, specifically the issues between me, my former Master, and Kukkiwon.

 

[skribs136 156]

@Tony Dismukes since it requires a registered IBJJF black belt, it sounds like things such as stripes don't really factor into the requirement, but that belt promotions are what's regulated. It also sounds like:

• Black belt is required to promote kids or to promote up to purple
• 1st degree required to promote to brown?
• 2nd degree required to promote to black.
• At some point can for example a 5th degree promote to 4th?

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

At the risk of derailing the thread...this sounds almost exactly like my problems with TKD, specifically the issues between me, my former Master, and Kukkiwon.

Fortunately, the IBJJF doesn't have as much power in the BJJ world as I get the impression the Kukkiwon does in TKD. The IBJJF is not any sort of governing body, it's strictly an organization that puts together tournaments. However it's one of the two most prestigious event organizers at the international level (the other being ADCC), so membership is desirable for athletes wanting to compete at the highest international level. (Especially in gi, since I don't think ADCC has gi events.)

@Tony Dismukes since it requires a registered IBJJF black belt, it sounds like things such as stripes don't really factor into the requirement, but that belt promotions are what's regulated. It also sounds like:

• Black belt is required to promote kids or to promote up to purple
• 1st degree required to promote to brown?
• 2nd degree required to promote to black.
• At some point can for example a 5th degree promote to 4th?

For IBJJF registration purposes, I believe a black belt can promote up to brown belt and a 2nd degree black belt can promote a black belt. I'm not sure about the rules for higher degrees of black belt, but it doesn't really matter. My understanding is that if you maintain your registration, then you can register higher degrees of black belt based on your time in grade.

(Note that all of this is just based on reading the info on the IBJJF website. I don't have any insider information.)

 

[skribs136 156]

Fortunately, the IBJJF doesn't have as much power in the BJJ world as I get the impression the Kukkiwon does in TKD. The IBJJF is not any sort of governing body, it's strictly an organization that puts together tournaments. However it's one of the two most prestigious event organizers at the international level (the other being ADCC), so membership is desirable for athletes wanting to compete at the highest international level. (Especially in gi, since I don't think ADCC has gi events.)

I think it's a little of an apple and orange thing.

Kukkiwon is the official organization from South Korea. But there's a lot of other organizations, such as ITF and ATA that have their own curriculum, rules, and tournaments. Then there's World Taekwondo, which is the sport authority that uses belts registered from Kukkiwon (specifically Kukkiwon, not anyone else). While there have been efforts to separate KKW and WT, I don't think there's a logical path towards that without a lot of change management occurring.

I feel that IBJJF is more ubiquitous as far as a ranking authority than KKW, although that could just be because of my experience in an IBJJF affiliated school. However, I do think there's a lot more opportunity to compete outside IBJJF.

For IBJJF registration purposes, I believe a black belt can promote up to brown belt and a 2nd degree black belt can promote a black belt. I'm not sure about the rules for higher degrees of black belt, but it doesn't really matter. My understanding is that if you maintain your registration, then you can register higher degrees of black belt based on your time in grade.

Interesting. How does that work regarding the stigma against self-promotion?

(Note that all of this is just based on reading the info on the IBJJF website. I don't have any insider information.)

Dang, then what use are you?

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

I feel that IBJJF is more ubiquitous as far as a ranking authority than KKW, although that could just be because of my experience in an IBJJF affiliated school. However, I do think there's a lot more opportunity to compete outside IBJJF.

I don't regard the IBJJF as a ranking authority at all. It's a tournament organization. It just so happens that you have need your rank registered with them in order to compete in their tournaments. (Although they are influential in that most non-IBJJF affiliated schools do seem to follow their guidelines regarding stuff like time in grade for promotion.)

Interesting. How does that work regarding the stigma against self-promotion?

Technically, it's not self-promotion since the IBJJF would be awarding the rank. But in general, degrees on a BJJ black belt are pretty much just markers of time in grade as an active black belt. There are a handful of instructors who have additional requirements, but in most schools and organizations the awarding of a higher degree is just recognition that the practitioner has been active (training, teaching, and/or competing) for the requisite time since they were awarded their black belt. For the IBJJF, I guess they measure "active" as "have you been paying your membership dues and certification renewals".

Which reminds me, one of the instructors at my gym earned his black belt before I did but then dropped out of regular training for about 5-6 years. He's now been active long enough that he should at least be due for his 1st degree. I should give that to him next time I see him in gi. Of course, he hardly ever wears a gi, so that might be a while.

Dang, then what use are you?

I often wonder that myself. My wife would say that I'm good for getting things off the top shelf.

 

[skribs136 156]

I often wonder that myself. My wife would say that I'm good for getting things off the top shelf.

I don't know about that. In my head, everyone on this forum is 5'5.

 

[drop bear136 11]

I believe this has changed over the years. Based on my recent research, getting registered with the IBJJF even as a blue belt requires that you have an IBJJF-registered black belt sign off on your paperwork. That black belt would need an IBJJF-registered 2nd degree black belt to sign off on their own registration.

It's been a bit of a headache for us. Neither I nor my coach are registered with the IBJJF. When I took over the gym, I thought it might be a cool thing to get one of my black belts registered with the IBJJF in case any of our students wanted to compete in IBJJF events. I figured that we'd go through my teacher's teacher, Carlson Gracie Jr. Carlson would charge us to sign off on the paperwork, but I was willing to pay that expense.

Unfortunately, it turned out that Carlson also requires that the gym be part of his federation before he would sign off on the IBJJF paperwork.

We had one student who wanted to compete in IBJJF events as a blue belt. In order to get one of my guys registered as an IBJJF black belt to sign off on that blue belt's IBJJF registration, it would have cost:

Carlson Gracie Federation membership = $1800/year + $1500/year purchase of branded gear = $3300
paying Carlson to sign off on the paperwork = $300
$400 to the IBJJF for the initial black belt certificate + $150/year for renewal (plus miscellaneous expenses such as rules seminar certification and first aid certification)

So basically, we were looking at an upfront charge of over $4000 plus ongoing costs just so that we could send one blue belt to IBJJF tournaments. Given that we're still working on returning the gym to profitability, that just wasn't a practical option. I checked around with friends who run or have run academies in the area to see if any of them had the certification to sign off on paperwork for us, but they were all in the same boat. They either weren't IBJJF certified or had let their certification lapse because they had concluded it wasn't worth the money.

Does belt checker apply to this?

Side note we just get a guy in to sign off on our guys

 

[drop bear136 11]

At the risk of derailing the thread...this sounds almost exactly like my problems with TKD, specifically the issues between me, my former Master, and Kukkiwon.

Boxing in Australia has the same issue. You can't even be two organisations. So if you are one. You can't compete in the other.

 

[drop bear136 11]

Which reminds me, one of the instructors at my gym earned his black belt before I did but then dropped out of regular training for about 5-6 years. He's now been active long enough that he should at least be due for his 1st degree. I should give that to him next time I see him in gi. Of course, he hardly ever wears a gi, so that might be a while.

Ambush him.

Hey bro. Can we do some gi specific stuff?

I just want to work on some things.

 

[skribs136 156]

Does belt checker apply to this?

Idk, I've only really heard of it used for reddit tags.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

Does belt checker apply to this?

BeltChecker is pretty much just crowd-sourcing validation of ranks for people who aren't in the IBJJF database. I only cast rank verification votes for people I know or know of personally. But some of the people who voted to confirm my rank were just doing that based on the documentation I posted.

Most people on BeltChecker do hold to the same time-in-rank requirements as the IBJJF. It's pretty standard in the BJJ community.

 

[HighKick]

The IBJJF is not any sort of governing body, it's strictly an organization that puts together tournaments. However it's one of the two most prestigious event organizers at the international level (the other being ADCC), so membership is desirable for athletes wanting to compete at the highest international level. (Especially in gi, since I don't think ADCC has gi event

Tony, in this context, they are very similar. To compete in the upper level World Taekwondo tournaments (states, nationals, internationals) you have to be an affiliate member. Usually, this is handled/absorbed at the school level and you do not have to register (competition-wise) until States (for black belts).
In terms of belt testing there is zero WT/KKW regulation in the color belts which is usually 2-3 years training in most schools. Then there is a loosely regulated Kukkiwon format up to 3rd Dan which is frequently handled by the higher/older Dan ranking Masters, at least in North America. Then it starts to get much more stringent as far as KKW intervention and quality control.
Honestly, it sounds like IBJJF is trying to have a tighter level or control than WT/KKW. But it is almost always more difficult to try and back into a certification/requirement versus mapping it out on the front side in almost any situation.

 

[skribs136 156]

Honestly, it sounds like IBJJF is trying to have a tighter level or control than WT/KKW. But it is almost always more difficult to try and back into a certification/requirement versus mapping it out on the front side in almost any situation.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with this. I think both are tightening controls, but I think KKW may be tightening them even further.

I think in both cases, there's not very much information available to the general public as to the specifics of how these systems work. However, between the two, I think IBJJF is much easier for non-Brazilians to navigate than KKW is for non-Koreans. I know in the BJJ community, there are jokes about how the winner in a tied match is "whoever has the more Brazilian-sounding name". But I think the BJJ community is much more open to non-Brazilians running gyms and being seen as pillars of the BJJ community.

Whereas I feel Korea had for a very long time considered TKD to be a primarily Korean thing. Maybe in the 1990s-2000s they tried to make it a global phenomenon, but still run by Koreans. And it feels like they're trying to make sure again that TKD stays in the hands of Koreans. This is based on the context I got from my Master when I last spoke to him, and the trouble I've had connecting with KKW essentially from the outside. I know my first TKD Master (a non-Korean who was born in America) was one of the first non-Korean masters, and it was much more difficult for him to get his rank because the Koreans view Americans as lazy. I don't feel like being non-Brazilian will affect my path to becoming a Professor in BJJ.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

Tony, in this context, they are very similar. To compete in the upper level World Taekwondo tournaments (states, nationals, internationals) you have to be an affiliate member. Usually, this is handled/absorbed at the school level and you do not have to register (competition-wise) until States (for black belts).
In terms of belt testing there is zero WT/KKW regulation in the color belts which is usually 2-3 years training in most schools. Then there is a loosely regulated Kukkiwon format up to 3rd Dan which is frequently handled by the higher/older Dan ranking Masters, at least in North America. Then it starts to get much more stringent as far as KKW intervention and quality control.
Honestly, it sounds like IBJJF is trying to have a tighter level or control than WT/KKW. But it is almost always more difficult to try and back into a certification/requirement versus mapping it out on the front side in almost any situation.

Fortunately, there are tons of non-IBJJF competitions at the regional level. Even at the national/international level there are some options. ADCC is the only one that can match the IBJJF for prestige, but there are some other high-level professional competitions like EBI and UFC which attract top-notch competitors. (The UFC recently started a BJJ competition which is separate from its MMA events.)

 

[HighKick]

I don't know that I necessarily agree with this. I think both are tightening controls, but I think KKW may be tightening them even further.

I think in both cases, there's not very much information available to the general public as to the specifics of how these systems work. However, between the two, I think IBJJF is much easier for non-Brazilians to navigate than KKW is for non-Koreans. I know in the BJJ community, there are jokes about how the winner in a tied match is "whoever has the more Brazilian-sounding name". But I think the BJJ community is much more open to non-Brazilians running gyms and being seen as pillars of the BJJ community.

Whereas I feel Korea had for a very long time considered TKD to be a primarily Korean thing. Maybe in the 1990s-2000s they tried to make it a global phenomenon, but still run by Koreans. And it feels like they're trying to make sure again that TKD stays in the hands of Koreans. This is based on the context I got from my Master when I last spoke to him, and the trouble I've had connecting with KKW essentially from the outside. I know my first TKD Master (a non-Korean who was born in America) was one of the first non-Korean masters, and it was much more difficult for him to get his rank because the Koreans view Americans as lazy. I don't feel like being non-Brazilian will affect my path to becoming a Professor in BJJ.

You are at least 30-40-years late on the worldwide push by KKW. It started in the 60's and really started to expand in the 70's It is fairly easy to glean the requirements from the USATKD and Kukkiwon websites up to and beyond 4th Dan. But the requirements tighten up quite a lot at 4th Dan and require most people to do some traveling for courses and such to meet the requirements.
I don't know a ton of instructors, Korean or otherwise who I would fully trust to get all the information from. There is a positive amount of 'buyer beware' in the process. This is largely there to reduce 'cheating and posers' from short-cutting the high Dan levels. But by in large, from white to 3rd Dan, the process if rather linear.
It is The Korean national sport (north & south) and engrained in their government. It is no wonder they try so hard to hold onto it's identity. Just like many Americans do about various things.
In contrast, particularly the UFC line of BJJ is more of an 'American thing'. Yes, I know it expand beyond the U.S. boundaries.

 

[skribs136 156]

You are at least 30-40-years late on the worldwide push by KKW. It started in the 60's and really started to expand in the 70's

I mean when it was the most palatable in Korea for foreigners to become Masters. In the 60s and 70s it was always a Korean master. It wasn't until later on that they trusted Americans enough to be called Masters. But now I think they're pulling back on that. It's easier to get your black belt in Korea as a Korean than in America as an American. It's easier to get your

It is fairly easy to glean the requirements from the USATKD and Kukkiwon websites up to and beyond 4th Dan. But the requirements tighten up quite a lot at 4th Dan and require most people to do some traveling for courses and such to meet the requirements.
I don't know a ton of instructors, Korean or otherwise who I would fully trust to get all the information from.

If you can read Korean, maybe. What I've been able to find in English is snippets.

 

[HighKick]

I mean when it was the most palatable in Korea for foreigners to become Masters. In the 60s and 70s it was always a Korean master. It wasn't until later on that they trusted Americans enough to be called Masters. But now I think they're pulling back on that. It's easier to get your black belt in Korea as a Korean than in America as an American. It's easier to get your

Naturally, there were few non-Korean masters in the 60's. There were very, very few non-Koreans practicing at the time. It took a good decade or better to get any kind of base from other countries. The U.S. was a key initiative. 'Trust' had little to do with it. Time in training combined with the communication gap were the driving factors.

They are Not pulling back. If anything they are advancing in BB testing numbers in a better, more focused and organized manner. It had gotten Way too loose and there were/are more than a few bad actor GM's passing subpar students. It is a easy to trace fact that it was Way too easy and went on for Way too long that every Tom, Dick, & Harry school put a KKW placard on their doors and windows, whether they were really invested in KKW or not. KKW has done a good job on reeling this in. They have Not always done a good job in conveying procedural changes (to the world). But that has Always been on the individual school owner. TCON has greatly help in this aspect. The KKW site is converted to any language and is fairly easy to navigate but just like anything else, a person needs to spend time with it and be in and around the KKW environment to understand all of it and fully leverage the process.

This isn't like going to Carvana and buying a vending machine car.

It is Not any easier to get your belt in Korea. If anything it is harder (at least in terms of time) since TKD is integrated into the school systems. Most kids have done it all their young lives. So by virtue and attrition, it is much more familiar and available to kids. This is a big reason for the shortened cycle time to black belt in Korea. Many kids come out of grade school with a poom black belt.

If you can read Korean, maybe. What I've been able to find in English is snippets.

It is all converted. Not necessarily easy to digest but it is all there. Maybe you need to spend some time on the TCON site.

 

[skribs136 156]

They are Not pulling back. If anything they are advancing in BB testing numbers in a better, more focused and organized manner.

I'm not talking about American black belts, I'm talking about American masters (4th degree and up). They're fine with Americans paying the $$ for black belt registrations. They're not as fine with Americans being Masters because they don't think of us as being as good of Masters as Koreans. Although, according to my former Master, this is more in response to China than America, the point still stands.

It's kind of like in the movie The Art of Self-Defense, where the girl wasn't promoted to black belt because "girls can't actually fight" or something like that. They were fine with her teaching kids and being an upper belt. But they weren't fine with promoting her to the top level.

My impression from what I've seen is that Kukkiwon loves to dish out black belts, but hates foreigners being called Master.