Try to understand how people in other styles may do

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand why some people always like to keep their MA discussion "pure within their own style". Most of the time, the guy you have to fight in the street will not be a guy from your same system. You will need to know how people in other styles may think and train in order to be able to deal with them effectively.


I'll be more interest to know how a MT guy uses his double neck tie than a wrestler does. The reason is simple. I know how a wrestler will do, but I don't know how a MT guy will do. To be able to deal with a MT guy's knee during clinch is extreme interest to me.


Your thought?

 

[Takai]

Some people are only comfortable in their own system/style. They choose not to expand their knowledge beyond that. That in reality is their choice. Whether we agree or disagree with it doesn't really matter. If you aren't getting the answers you are looking for find an alternate.

For me getting a knee during a clinch isn't a big deal. I would meet the leg with mine and just break it or the standing leg when it retracts (depending on my mood).

 

[drop bear]

Agree with op. Wierds me out instructors who ban that sort of thing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It is their cute little way of dismissing your point.

 

[Grenadier]

On the flip side of the coin...

A given martial art is based on a set of fundamental techniques. Over a long period of time, the arts have evolved around those techniques, and you have what is an ideal fit for that particular system.

There are many sets of fundamental techniques that are equally good, and that in the end, systems that are based on such techniques will only be limited by the ability of its practitioners to pass on the knowledge to others. No one established system is necessarily inherently better than another.

Even though these techniques are all good, though, some simply aren't going to mix very well within a given system. If you try to put too much variance within a given system, you're going to have the same result as having too many chefs in a kitchen.


This does not, however, mean that I discourage the study of other systems. If anything, I do encourage people who want to learn more about grappling and throwing, to study Judo, or some other similar art.

However, when they train in Judo, then they should do things the way their Judo sensei tells them. When they're in a Karate dojo, then they should do things the way their Karate sensei tells them. Thus, they can still learn different techniques, while still keeping things pure. There's a reason why these systems have survived the test of time, and a lot has to do with the fact that they stick to what has been established, and what works.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't understand why some people always like to keep their MA discussion "pure within their own style". Most of the time, the guy you have to fight in the street will not be a guy from your same system. You will need to know how people in other styles may think and train in order to be able to deal with them effectively.


I'll be more interest to know how a MT guy uses his double neck tie than a wrestler does. The reason is simple. I know how a wrestler will do, but I don't know how a MT guy will do. To be able to deal with a MT guy's knee during clinch is extreme interest to me.


Your thought?

For me, I don't mind asking about how other styles do things, but I focus more on asking about wing chun because that's where my heart is at. What I mean is: while I would like to know how other styles do things to know how to "handle," I already have a lot on my plate simply trying to learn wing chun.

 

[ballen0351]

I try to go to all kinds of other classes and seminars. I also find people in other styles and pick their brain. In my judo class we have several black belts in other styles so after class we tend to stay and just discuss different techniques from our styles. There is a few different styles of Karate, TKD, BJJ, military combative just in that class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Focus on your chosen style to understand I and be able to use it, watch other styles to see how what you do and know applies to what they do and know.

I have said this may times, use to be part of a group of people from various styles that use to get together once a week and beat the heck out of each other, it was a great way to learn.

If you get to stuck in your style you "only" learn how to defend against the way your style attacks so when you come across another style or someone in the street who has no style you could have trouble

 

[wingchun100]

Focus on your chosen style to understand I and be able to use it, watch other styles to see how what you do and know applies to what they do and know.

I have said this may times, use to be part of a group of people from various styles that use to get together once a week and beat the heck out of each other, it was a great way to learn.

If you get to stuck in your style you "only" learn how to defend against the way your style attacks so when you come across another style or someone in the street who has no style you could have trouble

Right. Or if you go to your school and have someone learning your style "pretend" to come at you the way someone in a different style would, you still aren't learning how to handle the other system because your classmate can't do the technique properly.

 

[Mark Lynn]

My martial arts training has developed more around blending of different styles over the years, so I don't have a problem with it. My instructors too, tended to blend things as well, so it might seem funny that for the sake of discussion I'll take the opposing view of not blending in things into the primary style.

1) Being a master of One and not a Jack of all trades. By constantly blending or always looking for the Wow factor within arts, a person can sometimes not learn all of the foundational techniques or principles to learn or fine tune the higher skill sets.

An example of this for me was one time I was teaching on a particular flow drill series in Modern Arnis at a seminar, I called up a friend of mine who is a Okinawan Karate stylist, to demo with me ( I had never worked on this drill with him before and had only worked with him in a karate/kobudo type of setting before). As I was demonstrating I went to apply a particular finger lock in the flow drill, my friend ended up doing a counter to avoid the lock by applying a very simple counter by just shifting in his stance and changing the angle, thus preventing the finger lock.

I had never considered that type of counter before, and it was instant, he just reacted due to his training in karate. He was really a purest in a sense only having one instructor for many years studying one style. It wasn't that he had been shown the drill or the finger lock or what I was doing, or whatever. We had not done this together before etc. etc. I asked him about it later and he apologized saying it just made sense, he instinctively reacted. I told him there was no need to apologize and in fact I learned something from him.

2) To many cooks in the kitchen. Sometimes this can be confusing for students even if they are instructors. I recently had this happen in a Kobudo class. Myself and another instructor were told to instruct the lower ranked students (all brown and black belts in their primary arts) on a particular kata. We do the kata differently in some key points, low and behold I made a correction on how the hands (that were gripping the weapon) were supposed to be (not on the overall movement mind you, just the way the hands gripped the weapon). Another sensei (who was also instructing) comes up and interjects a whole new scenario and a whole new interpretation and how the hands were to be on the Jo along with the whole movement. All were valid, but which is the student supposed to follow?

In this case you had one person who was more of a karate/Kobudo purest, one instructor who was an aikijujtisu (well I'm not sure really), and myself with a karate/TKD, FMA and kobudo background. This was a case of to many cooks in the kitchen and ended up confusing the issue. Now don't get me wrong I'm an FMAer at heart, so I loved the debate it's just it was the wrong place for it.

3) Not good for instruction especially for beginners. GM Remy taught from a high view of motion application (in a sense), so rather than have one version of his kata (or anyos) as along as the move was done in a forward stance with the arm held out in front he was good to go. However it was very confusing for everyone else. This is why I have several different versions of Anyo Isa (both solo baston and empty hand) on VT (now DVD) from what we were taught at different camps by different instructors. To Remy (this is my opinion) it didn't really matter because it was the heart of his system, "The art within your art"; that it didn't matter if you had a closed fist, a palm heel, a four knuckle punch, or a finger tip type strike, you still had a strike coming off of your lead foot. This strike could be a hit, a lock, a throw, an off balancing technique etc. etc. and it is in the application of the technique not necessarily the exact type or form of the technique that was important.

This was taught to us in Demo mode, "these are the translation of the techniques" and then he would show application to make sure we got the point. Which I don't believe many of us got till years later. I wrote this before of how my first actual viewing of this was when my seminar partner who was a Preying Mantis instructor did Anyo Isa Form 1 for him Preying Mantis style and Remy told him "Very Good, You've got it!" This confused me for a long time.

On the other side of the coin
Having a wide variety of arts in your background can be a good thing it can give you a wide foundation from which to draw connections from
other techniques from. For instance last Kobudo class I related one bo defense to an eskrima technique or principle to another student with an FMA background, BOOM, instant understanding a connection made. Or this block (or type of defense) found in Modern Arnis is the same technique as the opening for one step #1 in my TKD class, so my cross over (TKD to Arnis) students get that immediately (again instant recognition or connection made).

Whether or not a person studies multiple arts or one art, with the right training the person will still get there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Usually in a self defence situation it is most likely that you will not know anything about what and how much the person attacking you knows so understanding what other arts do might be a moot point. In any case it is not necessary to know how every art works. There are a near infinite number of ways someone can attack you but there are only a relatively finite number angles and body configurations a strike can come at you. A back fist, knife hand strike or some weird bent wrist strike are very different techniques but can come at you from the same angle and can therefore be blocked or evaded the same way. The arm can be bent or straight and have different levels of force, which will sometimes change the way it is blocked but really does not get too much more complicated than that. A grappler, whether it be Judo, Jui Jutsu, BJJ or wrestling will all have at least one thing in common - in order to throw you or take you down they each have to grab you in some fashion first. So if you can avoid getting grabbed then you can defend against a getting thrown or taken down no matter what grappling method is used and there are only a finite number of ways you can grab someone.

A bit of understanding is a good thing as long as you don't over complicate things unnecessarily. Its individuals you have to learn to defend against, not arts.

 

[drop bear]

Right. Or if you go to your school and have someone learning your style "pretend" to come at you the way someone in a different style would, you still aren't learning how to handle the other system because your classmate can't do the technique properly.

Yeah that usually winds up cringeworthy.

 

[MJS]

I don't understand why some people always like to keep their MA discussion "pure within their own style". Most of the time, the guy you have to fight in the street will not be a guy from your same system. You will need to know how people in other styles may think and train in order to be able to deal with them effectively.


I'll be more interest to know how a MT guy uses his double neck tie than a wrestler does. The reason is simple. I know how a wrestler will do, but I don't know how a MT guy will do. To be able to deal with a MT guy's knee during clinch is extreme interest to me.


Your thought?

I don't understand it either. Personally, I enjoy cross training, and getting to know how other arts operate. IMO, that's a fantastic way to improve your own training. I've had Kenpo guys look at other arts, see things they do, and say, "That's nothing new. We already do that in Kenpo!" Hmm...ok. But, while it might be similar, it's not the same, per se. Someone might look at a RNC and say that choke is in Kenpo, however, given the fact that Kenpo isn't a grappling art, first and foremost, I think working with someone who does BJJ, would be much better at explaining and applying those principles.

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't understand why some people always like to keep their MA discussion "pure within their own style".

Depends on the discussion, and the martial art. Having a clearer understanding of that, and not thinking that all martial arts are the same, or have the same goals, reasons, aims, or anything else, is the first step to actually getting your answer.

Most of the time, the guy you have to fight in the street will not be a guy from your same system.

Who says that all martial arts are aiming to deal with "the guy in the street"? And who says, even if you do end up wanting to apply it against such a "street guy", that he's even trained in anything at all? Realistically, if your aim is to train against the "guy in the street", you don't need to look to other martial arts, you need to look to the realities of street violence… how it's set up, how it happens, common attacks, and so on. You're not going to go up against another martial artist.

You will need to know how people in other styles may think and train in order to be able to deal with them effectively.

Unless you're going into a multi-style tournament, you're not going to have any reason/need to know how other arts do things. You just don't. It's wasted effort.

I'll be more interest to know how a MT guy uses his double neck tie than a wrestler does. The reason is simple. I know how a wrestler will do, but I don't know how a MT guy will do. To be able to deal with a MT guy's knee during clinch is extreme interest to me.

You might want to understand it just because, well, it's always interesting to have a wider understanding, but looking to learn how each system does all their variations of whatever you're looking at, well… it's unrealistic, impossible (from a practical standpoint), wasted effort, and largely pointless. Additionally, it's assuming the same thing you always assume… that what you find in one art is also found in all others. I've lost track of the number of times you've come into a discussion of how a particular martial art does something (specifically in their form) to give very general ideas of something you think is similar, which is almost always out of place in the discussion you're joining in. It happens here, on MAP, everywhere. And, honestly, the blowback from that, I believe, is really where this thread has come from.

Your thought?

Waste of time and effort the way it's shown here.

When it comes to discussions, well… it really depends on the discussion.

 

[wingchun100]

It is interesting to learn about other styles, but you can't become overly obsessed with it. If you start to think "well geez the guy I run into on the street might know tae kwon do, judo, muay thai, etc.," then you will reach a point of paranoia where you think, "Well shoot if I can't learn how to defend against any style, I might as well just get a gun instead!" But then you'll be paranoid about whether or not the person who confronts you on the street is a better shot, can draw faster, etc.

While a little bit of curiosity is good, don't let it take over your life.

 

[WaterGal]

I think it depends on why you're training. Are you hoping to defend yourself against a random attacker on the street? Are you trying to compete in a sport? Are you doing it for fitness or something benefit that doesn't have anything to do with interacting with another person?

 

[wingchun100]

I think it is very helpful because it provides authenticity. What I mean is this:

Let's say I go to my wing chun class and Sifu says we are going to do a self-defense drill against a move from a different style. Sifu asks a student, "What attack do you want to do? Pick something." The student says, "A grappler going for your legs."

So what will Sifu do? Will he run down the street to a judo school and ask one of them to come demonstrate the takedown? No, he will ask another wing chun student to do the JUDO takedown. For this reason, I think training with others can be VERY useful.

 

[Buka]

I think a lot of Martial Artists, me included, sometimes fool ourselves. We all love self defense, we love that ability to protect ourselves and our families, we love the quiet underdog role where we turn the tables on the bad guy. But other than cops, competitors, bouncers etc, how many fights outside the dojo do we experience in a lifetime? Hopefully, not many, if any at all.


I am convinced we train not because of the health benefits, the self defense capabilities or the social interaction of a good dojo. We train because we love Martial Arts. We're junkies. Really can't help ourselves.


As for other styles - I'll bet I've lost more fights than most people have even seen. Real fights, sports fights, sparring matches, whatever. I've lost to people of every style. The only styles I haven't lost to are folks practicing styles I haven't had the pleasure of going against. I'm sure, in time, I'll get my *** handed to me by them as well. But, so far, they all seem to have the same things in common - If your guard is down they punch you in the face, if it's too high they pop you to the body, if your stance/balance is off they sweep/reap/throw you, if you commit to a rush they'll either intercept you or yield and send you flying, if you're on the ground with weak base, no position and/or unwary limbs they submit you or wail the hell out of you. If you hesitate in a fight they will all eat you alive.


I think it's best to train with principles in mind rather than techniques. I could be wrong, but I think all styles probably teach the same principles. Maybe some of them don't articulate them in teaching as well as they could, but I'll bet most are generically the same.


If a right handed strike is flying at your head it could be a fist, leopard paw, ridge hand, a fistfull of nickles or whatever - it's going to hit you and probably hurt if you don't do something. What to do isn't neccessarilly dependent on the style, but rather on the person. Be it a duck, bob and weave, a slip, a jam, a hard or soft block etc - probably all styles have them, each of us just find some of them suit us more than others.

Training with other styles/people is a good thing. But so is NOT training with other styles. I don't think there is an absolute in answering that conundrum. But training with others is fun. It just adds to the overall experience we junkies sometimes need.

 

[tshadowchaser]

at what level is this discussion going on?
If you are a rank beginner it might confuse you a little. You might need to keep within the concepts of the style your studying until you understand more about it.
If your experienced it could help you understand more about the technique

 

[wingchun100]

at what level is this discussion going on?
If you are a rank beginner it might confuse you a little. You might need to keep within the concepts of the style your studying until you understand more about it.
If your experienced it could help you understand more about the technique

I think it should definitely not be practiced by beginners. Like you said, the concepts aren't really engrained in a new student.