TMA class warm-up: Traditional or Modern Calisthenics?

[ven1911]

I pose this question out of my own general curiosities; When warming up a class (assuming your dojo does so) Do you or your instructor perform traditionally taught exercises or do they incorperate modern exercises such as crossfit or the like.

I have been to several training facilities which have done both and I was wondering which would be better for a TMA structure/class benefit.

 

[Flying Crane]

maybe you could give some descriptions of what you are thinking of as traditional vs. modern warmups?

I personally am not familiar with "crossfit"

 

[suicide]

i think a lil bit of both is the ticket %-}

 

[Live True]

I'm going to assume that by "traditional vs modern" you are referring to traditional warm up exercises for a particular style vs modern athletic training and sports science.

For example, in my style, Uechi, we have warm up exercises known as Junbi Undo and Hojo Undo. Some of these, in the light of modern sports knowledge, have actually been shown likely to contribute to damage to knees, etc. Then there are other "traditional" warm ups and practices such as makiwara training, weighted jars, etc.

I seem to remember another discussion on these forums about crossfit, and I think it's simply a cardio/weight program that seeks to incorporate many of the benefits of modern cross training and interval training. Here's what I found online: http://journal.crossfit.com/2002/04/foundations.tpl
From this page: "...Cardiovascular and Respiratory endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed, Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy."

To answer your question, in my recent and limited experience, we do a bit of both and adapt the more traditional exercises based on understandings gained from modern sports science.

I like what my sensei and I discussed last class. We do Junbi undo and calisthenics to develop the will. We do makiwara and bag work to (slowly and over months and years) develop inner muscular and bone strength. We do Hojo Undo to develop stamina and drill muscle strength/memory. We do kata to develop mental clarity, strategy, and focus. They all fit together and have thier time/purpose.

Does that answer your question at all?

 

[punisher73]

To quote a famous instructor on here: "It depends".

I think that whatever warm-up exercise is used it should be related to the activity at hand. You are training a martial arts class and not a gym class. If you only have a limited time it is better that you teach them HOW to exercise on their own then spending alot of time in class doing calisthenics.

Or better yet incorporate the movements to BE the warm up. For example starting with a front snap kick at knee height and lower intensity and then as the muscle warms up increase the height applicable to your style along with the speed and intensity. Maybe have them kneel down on one knee and push themselves up on the other leg and then do the kick.

I don't know, I just think that class time could be better spent working on the techs themselves to improve.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All I will say is I have had both from the same Sifu early he used traditional and later he used Modern Calisthenics and the modern Calisthenics were not bad but the Traditional damn near killed me but I got more out of them as it applies to MA.

Basically the modern Calisthenics were actually much easier

 

[Omar B]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

 

[zDom]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

Yes, you SHOULD.

But unfortunately the fact is, MOST students simply will NOT warm themselves up properly.

If you let them "learn the hard way" and suffer injuries, you end up with an empty mat.

Hence, most instructors just deal with it by including a warmup as part of the training session package.

 

[still learning]

Hello, With some many scientific studies, modern training materials, today athlete's are better train because of these NEW programs...

To stay in the past is to remaim in the past....

Some traditional excercise still makes sense base on time....and new ways can also improve the over all classes..

Aloha, Off course one has to research this further...what is best over all..

 

[ven1911]

Thanks everyone, very good responses. However LiveTrue hit the nail on the head with his post. Yes, you did answer my question, thank you.

I am all for warming up, especially when you reach a certain age (when I was very young I thought that is was a waste of class time as well OmarB). I agree that people are not joining dojos to workout, however I believe the class should be conditioned or prepared for class with a warm up.

I simply wanted know if TMA classes have gone the way of modern fads (such as crossfit).

LiveTrue, if you have time I would like to hear about some of your Junbi undo, makiwara, and Hojo Undo training (PM if you like).

 

[Omar B]

I firmly believe that after you are out of a beginner class you should have the warm up routine down and should be able to do it yourself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I simply wanted know if TMA classes have gone the way of modern fads (such as crossfit).

Based on the TMA schools I have most recently been associated with.....Simple answer, no.

 

[Xinglu]

Based on the TMA schools I have most recently been associated with.....Simple answer, no.

Yes, but we xingyi men are notorious for not being swayed easily from our routines

Personally, I think that a mix of both is a good thing. Just because something is new doesn't mean it is better (or worse for that matter), we should be open-minded and incorporate what works and leave out what doesn't.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

In theory I agree with you, but sometimes that just isn't feasible.
We work out in a communal MA gym. We have alloted time slices, and we have to wait for the earlier class to finish first. So there is no real opportunity to get warmed up right before class.

I could warm up at home, then drive to the dojo, then stand still until we get in. By that time I would have cooled off again.

 

[Bruno@MT]

In my dojo, warming up consists of some light stretching and loosening up (and some situps, pushups etc) and then we often start with basic kihon to get the blood flowing. That way, warming up itself is useful as practise, since basic kihon is one fo the most important things to repeat.

Basic kihon is very important, and it is ideal for warming up as well.

 

[xJOHNx]

Live true: would you mind elaborating abit on Junbi Undo and Hojo Undo? If you want to that is. I've googled both terms (my japanese is very lousy) and I came up with stretching and powertraining (although the later also seemed to gave a hit about woodwork).

We run for warm up, then we do some strength exercices for the thighs (as it makes the basic stands easier) and some general core training. Sometimes we do tabata or work with shinai's that have been made heavier.

Warm up is important to prevent injuries, so it's part of the game. Although most students seem to stop doing it, because it is too hard..

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, but we xingyi men are notorious for not being swayed easily from our routines

Personally, I think that a mix of both is a good thing. Just because something is new doesn't mean it is better (or worse for that matter), we should be open-minded and incorporate what works and leave out what doesn't.

Xingyiquan has nothing to do with it what-so-ever.... now if you don't mind this is cutting in to my Santi Shi training and copious rounds of wuxing

You are likely correct, and with me, throw in some rather old school Taiji training and I am guessing I am less likely than most to change. And as painful as this is for me to admit, I do agree that there is good in bad in both old school training and new school thinking about training. My only real concern in discussions like this is that some will throw out the old school stuff just because they feel it is old and the new way MUST be better . And in some cases it might be but most certainly not in all cases. And I am also of the opinion that many of the old TMA that people complain about as being ineffective has a lot to do with the shedding of old styles of training that go with those arts that are harder than the new "Scientific" method because we all know in all cases that easier is more effective

 

[Em MacIntosh]

If you consider stretching part of the warmup I think most of what I've done in any martial art was based on yoga, which I would consider traditional but modified. As for the warmup it's just a matter of increasing the elasticity of the muscles to help prevent damage and this is done by repeatedly using the muscle progressively harder until you can put out an adequate amount of force at an adequate speed without injury and are ready to train. Perhaps I haven't studied one or the other enough but I see little or no difference.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well seeing as I am currently engaege in a discussion on Judoforum about what defines Traditional Jujutsu, traditional is a broad term.

I'll say what we do is a blend.

One of my past gripes with my former Sensei is he had us do the same , exact stretchin routine that he learned in 1964 for everyclass and as a personal trainer I pointed out how antiquated, potentially harmfull and incomplete it was. (I waited till I was a 4th dan to push this BTW)

When ever I taught class ( about a 1/3rd the time) I did a different routine or let the guys do a solo warmup.

Now that we have our own Dojo, are genral warm up is as follows.

We starte with a blend of Eishen's Yoga and more conventional Yoga for 10-15 minutes and then we do Ukemi (Falls and rolls) for anywherwe between 5-20 minutes (Yes that can be on the longish side but Ukemi is a very important part of Jujutsu, both for the safety reasons but good Ukemi also makes your actual waza better.) Now sometimes I skip this and let the guys do a solo warm up for 10-15 minutes.

Then I tend to spend 10-30 minutes on technique reveiw and drill before going into the main subject of our class, further greasing the crew up to better obsorb the lessons.

Shugyo!

 

[Xinglu]

Xingyiquan has nothing to do with it what-so-ever.... now if you don't mind this is cutting in to my Santi Shi training and copious rounds of wuxing

You are likely correct, and with me, throw in some rather old school Taiji training and I am guessing I am less likely than most to change. And as painful as this is for me to admit, I do agree that there is good in bad in both old school training and new school thinking about training. My only real concern in discussions like this is that some will throw out the old school stuff just because they feel it is old and the new way MUST be better . And in some cases it might be but most certainly not in all cases. And I am also of the opinion that many of the old TMA that people complain about as being ineffective has a lot to do with the shedding of old styles of training that go with those arts that are harder than the new "Scientific" method because we all know in all cases that easier is more effective

To paraphrase JFK: We train "not because it is easy, but because it is hard." It is a fact that we do not get better with out challenging ourselves. This holds very true especially in conditioning, techniques, stretching, cardio (to build endurance). New methods or old methods, with out difficulty there can be no improvement.

Some of thew methods are safer than the old, some are not. Some compliment the old training methods very well, some do not. In the end, it should be looked at objectively on a case by case basis.