Push-ups or techniques?

mrhnau

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7starmantis said:
This is a good point, but you also wont be fighting this bad guy for 3 hours. At least I sure hope not! In training is when you need to really perform well, you need to push yourself. There is a huge difference in doing fighting drills when your fresh and when you've spent 30 minutes running, jumping, rolling, kicking, etc.

Hmm... I'm thinking (just thinking) that this may come down to styles and purpose perhaps...

Lets consider a boxer. He has a fight to get to. He warms up in his room, comes out with a nice sweat. People even get concerned when he is not sweating.

Same may be said for someone sparring. You want to be loose and limber before having contact, I would believe.

Now, if you are randomly walking down the street, trying to get home and someone tries to jump you, you won't have time for a warmup. You could already be tired, you may have just worked out. You might be just getting out of bed. You might be fresh. Whats the best way to train for this? Is it finding the worst scenario? Being exhausted via serious excercise? If so, people have different levels of endurance/abilities. Can we compensate? For some person to get in an exhausted state may take 10 minutes, while another may take 1 hour. Is that going to limit the people who can participate? Should we train in different conditions? Have a 7am class? or a class w/ no workout sometimes? Its hard to account for all possibilities...

This is a pet peve of mine, so everyone hold on to your butts. I personally believe what I ma there to learn includes the PT. In fact, I'm there to learn so I really can't say what is and is not needed in class, I'm not teaching, I'm just there to learn. Sometimes the warmup is a gut check to make yourself push on and decide if you really want to learn. There is something to that be it mental or physiological. Also, I dont think you can seperate "train" and "work out". To do so is a great understatement to what martial arts is, in my opinion. Its the whole balance issue again. You must have balance in all things. You can't learn techniques that will be effective without the proper conditioning and drive to perform them. To seperate the mentality of "training" and "working out" is to rip apart what fighting is. To push yourself beyond its normal routine both physically and mentally at the same time is close to reality of a fight than learning some moves and then hitting the gym. How will you perform those moves under pressure? When exhausted? After fighting for 20 minutes? Why waste the time in your training to get a workout as well? 30 minutes is absolutely nothing and what can you learn in an hour that you can't in 45 minutes? Or what can you learn in 1.5 hours that you can't in 1 hour? I dont like the continued need for learning new things and the idea that you must be learning and not working out. What is a move learned worth if it involves no "working out"? The idea that you must continually feed your hunger for more information or "moves" is conter productive in my opinion. We should slow down and workout with our newly learned techniques and try them on in all situations and probabilities before going back for seconds if you will.

I think the difference will come down to philosophies of the art. Personally, I don't want to fight. Ever. I don't train so that I can beat someone up or fight effectively, rather I train so I can get myself home if stuck in a bad situation. Am I planning on fighting for 20 minutes? Not on my life. I don't think "fighting" and "working out" are neccessarily strongly coupled. I imagine that someone in Muay Thai will need strength for effective kicking/punching, or the same for Karate. From what I see in the Bujinkan and Aikido, its not a matter of muscle/endurance necessarily. Are those things good? Sure, for a variety of reasons. Will they help me get home? Possibly (ie I can run faster hehe), but few techniques are dependent on them. So, I think the strength/endurance arguement may be style specific.

Personally, I like to stay in shape. There are numerous reasons for doing that. If I were to join a shooting club though, I'd not expect to do intensive running/situps before shooting simply because its not a neccessary element of shooting, unless you are doing tactical stuff (running around while shooting). Then I could understand :)

bottom line, I don't mind stretching/working out, but if that consumes the bulk of the time spent with an art that supposedly does not "need" it, then why are we doing it? May as well require thirty minutes of flossing. Thats good for you too! I can do both at home quite effectively. I think it does break down to art specific differences/philosphies, even to teacher preferances. If you don't like it, then don't go :)
 

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7starmantis said:
This is a good point, but you also wont be fighting this bad guy for 3 hours.
No, I hope not. But at the same time, even with just training, one should be well warmed up long before 3 hours.

7starmantis said:
Sometimes the warmup is a gut check to make yourself push on and decide if you really want to learn. There is something to that be it mental or physiological.
Yes, but that hurdle is regularly negotiated in the gym, it doesn't have to be in the dojo. The dojo brings it's own discipline and hurdles.

7starmantis said:
Also, I dont think you can seperate "train" and "work out". To do so is a great understatement to what martial arts is, in my opinion. Its the whole balance issue again. You must have balance in all things.
Definitely one must have balance, that is why I say exercise and fitness should be incorporated into one's lifestyle not their dojo time. I can see doing it for the kids. But adults should be responsible for the efficacy of their training.

7starmantis said:
You can't learn techniques that will be effective without the proper conditioning and drive to perform them. To seperate the mentality of "training" and "working out" is to rip apart what fighting is.
The mentality "press on" is the same, but that doesn't mean that you must experience that "press on" mentality in one place, it must be experienced everywhere, including the gym and dojo. I have seen that within myself in the gym. The mental lessons learned in the dojo helps me in the gym as well in all other areas of my life.

7starmantis said:
Sorry, rant is done, off my soapbox....just hit a nerve thats all.
That's ok. Ninja's are good at that, according to Fight Science! :p
 

zDom

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I'm definately in favor of calisthenics and stretching being part of MA training sessions.

Most of the points I would make in support of calisthenics and stretching have already been made by this point.

Here's a couple more that come to mind:

1) I do some calisthenics and stretching at home every day. And during my instuctor's advanced training sessions for upper belts only, we are indeed expected to warm up completely on our own.

But personally, I can't seem to push myself to do as much on my own as when I am in a MA workout. Maybe someday I will grow to that level, but I'm not there yet. And as several have said they are "fat black belts," it seems I am not alone in being unable to push myself on my own.

The muscular strength and endurance, cardio endurance, flexibility and body composition are ALL important to martial art training.

To quote Grandmaster Bong Yul Shin of the Moo Do Kwan in St. Louis, "Don't cheat yourself."

I also find that being pushed way past what I thought were my limits benefits my self esteem, confidence and is in general a character-building experience. Try doing 800 squats in 25 minutes or 500 situps in a row sometime and see how it feels - not in your body, but in your spirit.

2) As an American who is nearly 40, obesity and heart disease present a much greater risk and are much more likely to threaten me than an unarmed attacker.

Sure, I can get a good workout doing 1,000 kicks, but toning and strengthening my entire body will only make my martial arts more effective and make injuries less likely.

Maybe I won't get to warm up if I am attacked, but if I am constantly pushing my flexibility and strength, I am less likely to get injured not only in the dojang, but also out on the street.

I hope to be in better shape at 50 than I am now, and in even better shape by the time I'm 60. God willing, I will be able to keep practicing martial arts into my 70s, 80s and beyond.

That's the path I've chosen to follow - I hope, for those who choose another way, that things work out well for you. :asian: :)
 

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If I'm going to do martial arts in order to get in FINE physical condition, then I'll do so through Some calisthenics, but mostly.....Through doing LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of work with my martial art.
IF not, then they should really just enroll in a "GYM"....as there are more efficient ways of increasing lung capacity, muscular strength/endurance and flexibility than martial arts.
A martial arts school should be all about......um.............martial arts.

Your Brother
John
 

Paul B

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My take on this is very simple. If you want to get big or "in shape" go to a gym or go out on a run..if you want to learn Hapkido,come to a Hapkido class.

Mat time is precious,I think,and it shouldn't be wasted doing stuff you can do elsewhere off of the mat. I'm all for stretching and loosening up..but when it comes down to "working out" or not,I'd rather work on Hapkido.

I also tend to think of 30-minute in class workout-jumping jacks,push-ups,etc.. as filler. Surely the art you're studying has enough depth to keep you interested for the whole class..if not I'd keep looking.

A ten to twenty minute Nauk Bup session after stretching will warm you up just as well as jumping jacks or what have you..plus your working on something useful.That's my 2 c's.:)
 

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I can see both points on this issue. I am more partial to having the calisthenics incorporated into the class. I like to work out, but my work and home schedule just is not conducive to more than 20 minutes a day. So I like knowing that I am going to get a solid work out when I get to class. Our instructor believes, as others do, that you should be ready to train by the time class starts. So we spend about 10 minutes getting warm then we start training. However, for those in the adult class that want to get more calisthenics in, our instructor encourages us to join/assist with the junior class that starts about 30 minutes before us. Since the junior spend about a half hour on calisthenics and basics, we get in a good workout and refresh our basic knowledge before our class begins. I think it works out pretty good that way.
 

mrhnau

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MRE said:
I can see both points on this issue. I am more partial to having the calisthenics incorporated into the class. I like to work out, but my work and home schedule just is not conducive to more than 20 minutes a day. So I like knowing that I am going to get a solid work out when I get to class. Our instructor believes, as others do, that you should be ready to train by the time class starts. So we spend about 10 minutes getting warm then we start training. However, for those in the adult class that want to get more calisthenics in, our instructor encourages us to join/assist with the junior class that starts about 30 minutes before us. Since the junior spend about a half hour on calisthenics and basics, we get in a good workout and refresh our basic knowledge before our class begins. I think it works out pretty good that way.

Thats actually a great middle point! props to your instructor.
 

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I think adults should warm up before class, but for youth clases - it is a responsibility to prevent accidents and injuries and teach proper warm up techniques. 30 minutes is extreme though - 10-15 is more than enough.
 

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I see several issues here, so I'm going to address them separately.

It would be great if everyone would warm up before class starts - but for many of my students, who get out of work at 5:00 and drive straight to class at 6:00, it's just not possible - and if there is any traffic, or issues at work that must be solved before leaving, they are often late. Therefore, the first 15-20 minutes of the 90 minutes of class are primarily stretching, with some light calisthenics to help warm and loosen muscles, to prevent injury. However, the main workout of the class does not occur during that time; it occurs during the rest of the class.

In addition, too many people don't know how to warm up - as low color belts, they do whatever the rest of the class is doing; as middle color belts, they begin to modify the stretches for their own needs; as high color belts, they begin to do other stretches that work better than the ones presented. By black belt, that changes. For senior classes (red and black belts) students are expected to be stretched and warm when the class starts - because by then they've learned how, and they know what their own particular needs are - but I, as an instructor, am not willing to risk a student injuring him/herself to avoid having warmups as part of the class. Too many of my students have started with absolutely no idea how to stretch, but they thought they did know how, so they had to be taught - slowly, over time, in class, where they can watch others, get ideas, and ask questions.

Am I going to have the chance to stretch before I am attacked? Seems highly unlikely - but at the same time, I'm not going to worry about injuries at that point either. As has been said previously in this thread, fights don't generally last very long (a few seconds, compared to 1 1/2 hours or more), and without the flexibility that comes with correctly-done stretching, injury becomes more likely.

Calisthenics are a different issue. Yes, part of class warmups may be running in place, or jumping jacks, or situps - but it's not a big part, and it's more for warming up muscles than increasing strength or endurance; that is done during the class, in line drills, patterns, and sparring. I understand the original concern, that calisthenics/conditioning was occurring in place of MA training, instead of through MA training, and I agree with it - but I see that as separate from the issue of stretching.
 

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JeffJ said:
I was curious about how everyone feels about long bouts of calisthenics in a class before the actual training starts. My wife has been having arguments about this with the instructors from her former (now sister) school.

They have two 90 minute classes each week. Of that time, they spend a minimum of 30 minutes doing PT(often times it's more like 45). Whereas my wife has three 1 hour classes, plus a 90 minute class and she has her students do about 7 to 10 minutes of warm ups (some jumping jacks, light stretching, warming up the joints) and gets right down to what they are there to learn.

Personally, I have to agree with my wife on this one, and not just because I have to sleep with her. I can, and do, perform calisthenics at home. I go to the dojo to learn. It really seems like a waste of time to be doing push ups and crunches, usually under the supervision of someone who doesn't have a clue about how to do them properly, when I'm there to learn and practice.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Jeff

After reading this and what you wront in post #4, there is way too much conditioning and not enough training. All of the classes that I take, everyone arrives early and begins to stretch out prior to the start of the class. There is 5-10 min of stretching/warmup and then we get into the meat of the class. Working on the punches, kicks, bag work etc., provides a good workout so thats all the more reason IMO, to not spend a huge amount of time in the beginning. Running thru techniques, kata, etc., will also give that cardio workout, but speaking for myself, I'm there to learn and work the material.

Of course, working out on your own, is another great way to help stay and get in better shape.
 

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As simply a student, I'm on the fence on this one. Most of my classes are 45-60 minutes. In the shorter classes, I think anything over 10 minutes is counterproductive. Adults know they need to work out (and I need more than most). At the same time, the tight schedule often means that adults are coming straight from work and need at least 10 minutes of aerobics, some squats, and some stretches. Sometimes, though, I think instructors forget that a muscle should be warmed up before stretching too deep.

For kids, I think the trick has to be to make them do exercise that does not make them feel like they are doing exercise. My niece goes to a school that at times does 20-30 minutes. Since she does not get enough exercise at school or home, she is often winded and may be less mentally alert when she is learning techniques (heck, that happens to me after a hard warmup). If techniques or basics were somehow adapted into the warm-up routine, I think it would be more enjoyable and would reinforce the concepts they will be learning in the class. Most fitness experts you see on TV are now really encouraging adults to trick themselves into exercising by doing something they love to do. Might as well do that with the kids as well.
 

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mrhnau said:
Hmm... I'm thinking (just thinking) that this may come down to styles and purpose perhaps...

Lets consider a boxer. He has a fight to get to. He warms up in his room, comes out with a nice sweat. People even get concerned when he is not sweating.

Same may be said for someone sparring. You want to be loose and limber before having contact, I would believe.

Now, if you are randomly walking down the street, trying to get home and someone tries to jump you, you won't have time for a warmup. You could already be tired, you may have just worked out. You might be just getting out of bed. You might be fresh. Whats the best way to train for this? Is it finding the worst scenario? Being exhausted via serious excercise? If so, people have different levels of endurance/abilities. Can we compensate? For some person to get in an exhausted state may take 10 minutes, while another may take 1 hour. Is that going to limit the people who can participate? Should we train in different conditions? Have a 7am class? or a class w/ no workout sometimes? Its hard to account for all possibilities...
I dont think the idea would be to account for every possibility. I dont think I'm being clear enough with my point. I'm not saying the "warm up" should be done to give the students a workout, or that it should be done to exhaust the students. Those are side effects that are great, but its to prepare the student for the actual workout which is after the "warmup". Its to prepare the student for the "test" which is to defend themselves. A true realistic self defense situation is very hard on the body and you must train your body to be able to withstand that stress or your will not be victorious, or go home in one piece. The warm up is not preparing for self defense, it has far reaching effects but does not translate specifically to self defense. The warm up shouldn't be the hardest part of the workout or really completely exhaust the student. Training in different conditions and different times is most certainly a good idea though.

mrhnau said:
I think the difference will come down to philosophies of the art. Personally, I don't want to fight. Ever. I don't train so that I can beat someone up or fight effectively, rather I train so I can get myself home if stuck in a bad situation. Am I planning on fighting for 20 minutes? Not on my life. I don't think "fighting" and "working out" are neccessarily strongly coupled. I imagine that someone in Muay Thai will need strength for effective kicking/punching, or the same for Karate. From what I see in the Bujinkan and Aikido, its not a matter of muscle/endurance necessarily. Are those things good? Sure, for a variety of reasons. Will they help me get home? Possibly (ie I can run faster hehe), but few techniques are dependent on them. So, I think the strength/endurance arguement may be style specific.
I agree to a point. The MT or Karate argument is valid, however being in mantis which is often considered even more "soft" than aikido the "style philosophies" is a moot point. I dont really understand how you could even say fighting and working out are not strongly coupled. Fighting is using your body to perform and react to given stimulus in a specific and effective manner. If your body is not conditioned to be able to react and move in the most effective way you are setting yourself up for failure and in my own opinion giving yourself a false sense of security. Working out does not only relate to strength, but cardiovascular endurance, speed, power, ability to opporate under pressure, etc. Its simply not true to say physical techniques do not rely on physical fitness. Thats absurd. A Technique relys on the body's ability to perform, bottom line. I'll tell you this, most fights I've seen both in the ring and on the "streets" have come down to endurance. A much more skilled fighter can loose quickly to a more conditioned fighter, thats just fact. I study a very principle driven style that does not rely on strength/endurance but that is not the whole picture when discussing fighting. It doesn't rely on it that doesn't mean it doesn't require it. Your right though, maybe it is style/philosophy specific. More than that maybe its intent specific. What is the intent of your training? That may be more along the lines of the distinction.

mrhnau said:
Personally, I like to stay in shape. There are numerous reasons for doing that. If I were to join a shooting club though, I'd not expect to do intensive running/situps before shooting simply because its not a neccessary element of shooting, unless you are doing tactical stuff (running around while shooting). Then I could understand :)
This is exactly my point, you have said it better than I could. Tactical stuff. It seems you relate fighting (specifically self defense fighting) more to shooting skeet while I relate it moer to tactical firearms training. In a fight you are doing tactical stuff (running around while figihting) which require the neccesary skills of "running around". Realistic self defense fighting is not learning magic techniques that you can use against any opponent regardles of your physical state of being, we are in a physical realm and thus must train that part of our body in conjunction with our technqiues. To train them seperately is to seperate two needed parts of the fighting equation.

mrhnau said:
bottom line, I don't mind stretching/working out, but if that consumes the bulk of the time spent with an art that supposedly does not "need" it, then why are we doing it? May as well require thirty minutes of flossing. Thats good for you too! I can do both at home quite effectively. I think it does break down to art specific differences/philosphies, even to teacher preferances. If you don't like it, then don't go :)
This is my main pet peve...the idea that there are fighting arts that do not need stretching or working out. That is the biggest misconception in the martial arts in my opinion. I hit on it earlier, but all fighting needs physical conditioning...fighting is physical....I can't even think of how else to say it. I agree with the "dont go" sentament, but I can't believe there are "arts" that profess no working out needed. I'm shocked, seriously.

Bigshadow said:
Yes, but that hurdle is regularly negotiated in the gym, it doesn't have to be in the dojo. The dojo brings it's own discipline and hurdles.
True, however is one not associated with the other? Would we not benefit from pushing through that hurdle while practicing our "art" in the dojo? Its not about discipline or hurldes even, its about conditioning your body to react the way its needed to. The core of martial arts is physical, then why are we ignoreing the physical training?

Bigshadow said:
Definitely one must have balance, that is why I say exercise and fitness should be incorporated into one's lifestyle not their dojo time. I can see doing it for the kids. But adults should be responsible for the efficacy of their training.
But its not for simply working out or being fit. Its to really learn the techniques your being taught and adapting them, trying them from every possible angle. Its about learning your body and how it moves and how it should move. Its about takinga mental lesson and engraining it into your physical muslce memory and teaching your body to react the way it needs to be done. That simply takes conditioning nad endurance as well as speed, strength, etc. Why belong to a martial arts school and a gym when you can get it all at the same place with the focus being on the same thing? The workout you get in the gym can be had at the "dojo" but customized to fit your training and even help you leran more.

To clearify my point. I'm not talking about a "press on" mentality or a healthy lifestyle. I'm talking about conditioning your body to perform at its peak performance. To seperate "learning martial arts" and "working out" is to rip apart what fighting actually is. You must have both to fight effectively. What do you gain from learning a technique if you never push your physical limits trying it out? You can never full understand or know a move or technique if you haven't done so. You will also never be an effective fighter self defense or not without training you body to move and react in certain ways and developing your full body fitness. As to seperating the working out from the "dojo time" whats the point? You can get the "working out" while getting the "dojo time" and save yourself time and money. Also, you just might gain understanding, skill, and physical fighting fitness and awareness from working out in the martial way.

Again, just my own opinions from my training and experiences...hope I have not offended...

7sm
 

7starmantis

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Kenpojujitsu3 said:
I'm all for the 30 minute "calisthentics" before class.

1) It does warm you up before the strenuous activity.

2) The best workout is NOT basics, techniques are fueled by attributes such as speed, strength, coordination, flexibility. These attributes are achieved by and maintained by actually working out not drilling basic movements.

3) Working out should be done on our own, but many don't. Also those who do workout shouldn't really mind 30 minutes of "extra" exercise every little bit helps and 30 minutes is definitely a little bit. I hear the part about "that's not what you pay for". When I was going through the ranks it was "you paid for the training of a qualified instructor, the instructor is the expert and that's why you pay him, so listen to his training advise so you can get what you pay for." It's not Burger King, you don't have it your way. That's where the commercialism goes to far...people tell the "expert" how to teach them instead of letting the expert do what has been proven to work. People want the results that the expert got without the same work/training method the expert uses/advocates.

4) Crunches aren't related to martial arts? Try guard work in Ju Jitsu or knee thrusts in stand-up. Deep Knee Bends not helpful? - Try a shoulder wheel throw or a lifting shoot or any low stance technique with a weight load. Jumping Jacks not helpful? bounce around the ring and tell me what your feet are doing. Push ups not helpful? try escaping a pin when your opponent is heavier than you, or making a little room for your technique from a tight bear hug, try blunting a shoot attempt, heck try throwing a solid punch without a puch-up motion.

Things like this is why I teach mostly for free as a club and not commercial. I am not going to have someone pay me and then tell me how to teach them. If they know how better to train than I do then they should be training me. I surely don't tell my instructor how to train me and what's important for me as a student and what isn't, that's why he is the instructor, that's his job.

When is the last time someone went to college and told the professor to alter the syllabus because they didn't want to do part of it? When was the last time someone told the surgeon to cut them in a different place because they knew better? When was the last time a professional athlete told the winning coaches how to run the practices (and didn't get benched) ......still thinking? exactly the point.

Long story short if you go to someone for training do what they tell you to do as it's part of their program. That's an instructor's job not a students. If you don't like the program then train elsewhere. If you like the way an instructor performs then listen to him/her on how to make you perform too. That is why your there...or are you there just to do what you want to do?

My two cents....and a nickel

I just had to quote this awesome post. This has many great points!

I guess the key in determining is to look at the "fruit". Does the school or teacher turn out effective realistic fighters....if so stay, if not you need to determine why you are training.

7sm
 

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JeffJ said:
I was curious about how everyone feels about long bouts of calisthenics in a class before the actual training starts. My wife has been having arguments about this with the instructors from her former (now sister) school.

They have two 90 minute classes each week. Of that time, they spend a minimum of 30 minutes doing PT(often times it's more like 45). Whereas my wife has three 1 hour classes, plus a 90 minute class and she has her students do about 7 to 10 minutes of warm ups (some jumping jacks, light stretching, warming up the joints) and gets right down to what they are there to learn.

Personally, I have to agree with my wife on this one, and not just because I have to sleep with her. I can, and do, perform calisthenics at home. I go to the dojo to learn. It really seems like a waste of time to be doing push ups and crunches, usually under the supervision of someone who doesn't have a clue about how to do them properly, when I'm there to learn and practice.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Jeff
The reason why its good to make people do those types of things, is because most people wont do it at home. You must have certain attributes behind the techniques you learn or the techniques are going to be weak. Attributes such as strength, endurance, flexibility. The way you get people to do these type of things without complaining is incorporate some techniques with the workout, such as push ups on your fists. Your doing the push up to help your punching. When your making them do situps, incorporate a one two punch as they come up, then it feels like martial arts and they wont complain so much.
Most people dont do the workout they should at home, that why you make sure they get one when they come to class, just incorporate as much stuff that looks like martial arts in with it.
 

zDom

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I think martial art students are better of getting their calisthenic training at the dojang, with a group - everybody ends up pushing themselves harder - instead of cutting classes shorter and leaving the strengthening exercises to be optional homework.

It reduces the chance of injury during the practice of techniques.
 

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Sad fact of the matter is that many if not most of the people taking lessons DONT do any other sort of structured PT. Im a firm believer of physical fitness being a LARGE piece of combative survival (within our individual limitations of course, we all cant be 275lb cage fighters). If 30 min of class time devoted to exercise can give the students a noticeable improvement and the performance/confidence boost that comes with it, more power to them I say.
 

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BTW I took some classical Okinawan MA years ago and much of that was PT centric. In a classic style vs. TaeBo of course, but I remember sweating out a lot of knuckle push-ups and ab work. Including the instructor walking on student stomachs across the dojo as we did flutter kicks.
 

FearlessFreep

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Here's my week
Monday - 1 hr"Streetwise" all technique, mostly Hoshinsul and other fine tuning of practical techniques
Tuesday - 45 minutes "Kick Fit" (cardio\strength fitness), 45 minutes of "Body Tone" (body toning and conditioning) 1hr of Hapkido (2.5 hours total)
Wednesday - I get the night off, my wife takes the younger kids to Kids Hapkido (I often work on refreshing previous drills with the older kids)
Thursday - See Tuesday
Friday - Advanced Hapkido class (1hr)
Saturday - 1.5 hours of combined Kick Fit/Body Tone

So in an average week I'm getting 4 hours of Martial Arts and 4.5 hours of strength and conditioning work and the Kick Fit class is usualy punching and kicking against standing heavy bags or partners with Muy Thai arm pads so that gives me more chance to work technique with power)

So the instructor doesn't make us do conditioning in the Hapkdio classes, but he encourages us to come to the strength and conditioning classes as well, and ou can see a difference in the students who *just* do the Hapkido classes, and those who augment the MA training with physical conditioning.

Oh, yeah, and every morning I stretch...start the day loose and keep lose during the day...just in case.

Not to be bragging in saying all that, but we keep the Hapkido classes focused on techinque so we are not losing clase time to PT. But we taje the PT seriously enough to put the extra class hours into it

(and my 14 yo son and 12 you daughter keep the same schedule as me. My wife does all the above fitness work but none of the MA work)
 

matt.m

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Bigshadow said:
Matt this really isn't directed at you, but the philosophy that you and someone else stated earlier. I have been thinking about the saying and I just don't understand the logic. I wouldn't want to be injured in either. In fact, it could be down right deadly to become injured on the street. It seems to me that one would make stretching part of their (almost) daily life and this way you can achieve both.

I was too blunt I believe, I think I am with the mindset that if you train daily in some way in rotation that your chances for injury/lack of cardio are a lot lower.

In what Paul said, I believe that you should stretch and do all over body conditioning for at least 15 min. It gets the heart pumping good blood, raises endorphins, helps make you more alert for further learning.
 

Flatlander

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Personally, I see this as a difficult issue that I hadn't really considered prior to reading this thread. Many great points have been brought up by all involved. After reading through the thread and contemplating, here's my opinion (as one who has never run a class....)

Everyone has individual goals with regard to their Martial Art training. Some are realistic, and some are not. Some will put forth the effort to achieve the excellence they expect, some will require their instructor to hold their hand on the way there, some will feign effort just to say they've been there.

I think that there is no cookie cutter solution to this. I believe that the very best teachers out there will take the time to tailor a training regimen that is individual to each of their students, because we all learn differently. Because of that, I am an advocate of the "options" approach. Here's why: For myself, I believe that the ultimate responsibility for my physical fitness lies on my own shoulders. I'm an adult, and capable of handling my own affairs. If what I seek in my training is excellence, it becomes my responsibility to listen when my instructor speaks, practice what he/she tells me to practice, and pour all of my energy and awareness into our time together.

However, I am also responsible with my money, and respectful of others' time. If my instructor requires X dollars for their time, then I expect them to provide me with value for my money. I do not require the supervision of my instructor to ensure that my 'calisthenic', strength, or endurance training happens. That is my responsibility. I am there to learn the things that I don't already know, or practice the things that I have not completely internalized, or otherwise perfect my martial art technique. I do not believe that my instructor's time is best spent running me through a calisthenics regimen that I could quite adequately do on my own time. If, in fact, my instructor requires that I achieve specific and measurable physical benchmarks, then, as a willing student, I ought best follow any particular regimen that he/she lays out for me.

Meanwhile, I also believe that it is a responsible approach to insist that all in class spend enough time before training under the guidance of their instructor to stretch and warm up prior to the commencement of lessons. I do not believe that this requires much - I can be ready for just about anything in about 5 minutes.

So, why not give people the option to take part in pre (or post) training work out regimens to enhance their physical capabilities? An instructor could always charge more for their time....

If the concern is that a 'particular physical capability' is required in order to be considered 'adept' or 'able to advance in rank', test for it at testing time. If people cannot take responsibility for thier own physical fitness, deny them promotion.

Ultimately, I see the argument as boiling down to whether or not a highly qualified (enough to teach and get paid) martial artist is a necessary component of a calisthenics program. Personally, I think not. However, I can respect that there may be a regimen that they'd like students to follow. I just don't think that they (the instructor) need to personally be there to observe or facilitate it for everyone.

I can, however, understand that this may be a desirable excersise for some students, thus my advocacy of the "options" approach. Some people need or prefer to be supervised, some perform better in groups, some require a level of accountability in order to perform at their best. I can understand that.
 
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