MA and motor memory

[Joab]

Lousy title, I apologize, I have trouble with titles at times. The question really is how frequently and how long do you need to practice martial arts techniques before they are committed to motor memory? In other words, how long before they become automatic, techniques you use without thinking about them, your attacked and you respond with techniques without thinking about them. Bold lettering is by accident.

 

[ATC]

Lousy title, I apologize, I have trouble with titles at times. The question really is how frequently and how long do you need to practice martial arts techniques before they are committed to motor memory? In other words, how long before they become automatic, techniques you use without thinking about them, your attacked and you respond with techniques without thinking about them. Bold lettering is by accident.

Good question. I really don't think there is a set answer. That is why we just keep doing the same motions over and over. At some point it will just happen.

Also I don't think we do the moves only to become reflexsive but after that point we also keep practicing to help make the moves quicker and stronger as well. The reflex actually come rather quickly but the speed and accuracy take quite a bit more time to over time get quicker and more percise. This actually can continue to improve for quite some years. However the improvments get smaller and smaller until you reach your peak.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well I have heard it is about 2000 times but I cannot be 100% sure about that

 

[Big Don]

A lot

 

[xJOHNx]

Lousy title, I apologize, I have trouble with titles at times. The question really is how frequently and how long do you need to practice martial arts techniques before they are committed to motor memory? In other words, how long before they become automatic, techniques you use without thinking about them, your attacked and you respond with techniques without thinking about them. Bold lettering is by accident.

From what I recall from my memory there is no time an sich.
Depends on your age, the speed at which your brain adepts and so much other factors.

Muscle memory is nothing more than the adaptation of your brain to carry out movements with better accuracy & faster execution. There is no memory within the muscle, it's a brain facilitation to movement. As the word says it: plus facile (easier).

First you have the rudamentary movement which is hard to learn (because you don't know which muscle must contract at which time, so massive energy use), once this base is build, your brain starts memorizing the specific movement into a motorprogram. These are stored in the post central gyrus (and some other parts as well).

The more you repeat the movement, the easier the program is picked up in the brain and because of an increased amount of acetylcholine the program is executed in a better way, saving up energy (because not all the muscles contract anymore). The speed goes up as well.

not matter how much you repeat the process, it will keep improving. Even when you think that you've reached a certain point, it will keep improving in speed, accessability and better performance.

Feedback (positive feedback, aka constructive feedback) actually speeds up the proces. That's why feedback is so important.

This is the same principle that is being used on patients who lost motorcontrol of their arms aswell. For instance to learn how to write again.

So just keep on doing it.

edit: that is why it is so important to train with a teacher when you begin instead of out of a booklet. If you got the base wrong, it's very hard to unlearn it. As the program is made.

 

[MJS]

Lousy title, I apologize, I have trouble with titles at times. The question really is how frequently and how long do you need to practice martial arts techniques before they are committed to motor memory? In other words, how long before they become automatic, techniques you use without thinking about them, your attacked and you respond with techniques without thinking about them. Bold lettering is by accident.

Well, like anything, the more you do it, the more natural it'll become. Everyone is different, so this'll most likely vary from person to person. For myself, I have a few favorite techs. so depending on the attack, those tend to come out more than others.

There comes a time in your training, when recalling a specific tech. isn't necessarily the goal. Instead, you react to whats happening at the moment. So, when doing spontaneous drills, I'm not thinking, "Ok, here comes a right punch. Lets see...which of the many right punch techs. will I use? Ok, got it." You'd be hit 10 times over if thats the way it went. LOL. No, instead, I see the punch, and I just react. Is it going to look pretty and textbook? Probably not, but who the hell cares. I'm more concerned with defending myself, not looking pretty about doing it.

 

[geezer]

The question really is how frequently and how long do you need to practice martial arts techniques before they are committed to motor memory? In other words, how long before they become automatic...

I was just thinking about the same thing when I saw this thread. I was thinking that however many times it's necessary to repeat a technique, the ability to act spontaneously has to develop faster if you simplify your techniques. That way you will repeat the really valuable stuff more when you train and waste less time on the less applicable stuff. By this reasoning a boxer, for example, will become effective faster than a practitoner of a very elaborate and complicated MA.

Another thing, training by repeating pre-arranged patterns can lead to spontaneously using the wrong technique and getting clobbered. On the other hand if you train in response to the energy you actually receive, as for example in BJJ, wrestling, or Wing Tsun chi-sau, your reactions will correspond to technique and force your opponent uses against you. This seems like a more effective approach to me.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Just about everyone hates repitition untill they have to test the technique in the Dojo or the outside , then they wished they did 10,000 more reps.

 

[still learning]

Hello, ..like learning to catch a ball? ...how long did it take for this to be a natural reflex? ....maybe years? ,maybe one time?

Hey! ...catch? ....most of us would response with our hands up...!
----------------------

The old saying is 2000 times.....yet...learning to "duck" ...sometimes just a few times to remember this? ...when a shoe is thrown at you (President Bush)...

For anything to be a natural response....like martial art techniques? ...it is just a matter of doing it over and over...maybe for years?

Somethings will take longer than others.....


Aloha, ..No simple answers....everyone learns at there own pace..

 

[ATC]

From what I recall from my memory there is no time an sich.
Depends on your age, the speed at which your brain adepts and so much other factors.

Muscle memory is nothing more than the adaptation of your brain to carry out movements with better accuracy & faster execution. There is no memory within the muscle, it's a brain facilitation to movement. As the word says it: plus facile (easier).

First you have the rudamentary movement which is hard to learn (because you don't know which muscle must contract at which time, so massive energy use), once this base is build, your brain starts memorizing the specific movement into a motorprogram. These are stored in the post central gyrus (and some other parts as well).

The more you repeat the movement, the easier the program is picked up in the brain and because of an increased amount of acetylcholine the program is executed in a better way, saving up energy (because not all the muscles contract anymore). The speed goes up as well.

not matter how much you repeat the process, it will keep improving. Even when you think that you've reached a certain point, it will keep improving in speed, accessability and better performance.

Feedback (positive feedback, aka constructive feedback) actually speeds up the proces. That's why feedback is so important.

This is the same principle that is being used on patients who lost motorcontrol of their arms aswell. For instance to learn how to write again.

So just keep on doing it.

edit: that is why it is so important to train with a teacher when you begin instead of out of a booklet. If you got the base wrong, it's very hard to unlearn it. As the program is made.

Very nice. Thanks

 

[ACJ]

Another contributing factor is visualisation. Visualisation can lead to a improving a skill and making it easier to commit to muscle memory. A combination of visualisation and repetition has been shown to sometimes improve a skill and commit it to muscle memory faster than a similar amount of time spent just repeating the skill.

So with all these contributing factors its nearly impossible to say when you have committed it to muscle memory. Especially when do you define it as being committed to muscle memory? When you've just got the gross action down? When you're doing it perfectly in your sleep? Muscle memory is a sliding scale it's not a boolean variable.

 

[xJOHNx]

^correcto.

Repeating the techniques inwards (in your mind), same as visualisation does make the brain search and run the program, but you don't actually perform it.