Push-ups or techniques?

[SFC JeffJ]

I was curious about how everyone feels about long bouts of calisthenics in a class before the actual training starts. My wife has been having arguments about this with the instructors from her former (now sister) school.

They have two 90 minute classes each week. Of that time, they spend a minimum of 30 minutes doing PT(often times it's more like 45). Whereas my wife has three 1 hour classes, plus a 90 minute class and she has her students do about 7 to 10 minutes of warm ups (some jumping jacks, light stretching, warming up the joints) and gets right down to what they are there to learn.

Personally, I have to agree with my wife on this one, and not just because I have to sleep with her. I can, and do, perform calisthenics at home. I go to the dojo to learn. It really seems like a waste of time to be doing push ups and crunches, usually under the supervision of someone who doesn't have a clue about how to do them properly, when I'm there to learn and practice.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Jeff

 

[Bigshadow]

IMHO, calisthenics and exercises should be the responsibility of the practitioner. The dojo isn't a health club. It is a terrible waste of time to do calisthenics instead of training. Martial arts is a committment. That means spending time to stetch and exercise on your own time, not class time. It needs to be incorporated into your daily life.

In fact, I don't stretch or warm up before class. I show up, change, and I am ready to play. I try to make exercise and fitness part of my life outside of the dojo as well as eat properly.

We don't waste dojo time with calisthenics.

 

[7starmantis]

I dont see a 30 minute warm up as a wrokout in the stead of working out on your own, but rather a warmup to what is to come. I stretch and do alto of stuff out of class, but spending 30 minutes warming up doing stretching and the basics is not only a great way to keep basics in your head, but also to get your body ready for what is about to come (the workout). Most people have a hard time making it through our advanced warmup so that should preclude those who do not train on their own. I dont see it as a waste as I'm getting my body ready to workout. I dont want to be fighting, getting thrown, kicking, etc without having stretched and warmed my body up for it. I want to perfrom at my best level in class and that means getting my body to that point. You see professional fighters breaking a sweat before their fights, why is that? Is that a waste as well?

Of course, I'm used to very long classes so I could be biased, but I think 20 to 30 minutes is a great stretch/warmup and is needed in every class.

Just my own opinions,
7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I dont see a 30 minute warm up as a wrokout in the stead of working out on your own, but rather a warmup to what is to come. I stretch and do alto of stuff out of class, but spending 30 minutes warming up doing stretching and the basics is not only a great way to keep basics in your head, but also to get your body ready for what is about to come (the workout). Most people have a hard time making it through our advanced warmup so that should preclude those who do not train on their own. I dont see it as a waste as I'm getting my body ready to workout. I dont want to be fighting, getting thrown, kicking, etc without having stretched and warmed my body up for it. I want to perfrom at my best level in class and that means getting my body to that point. You see professional fighters breaking a sweat before their fights, why is that? Is that a waste as well?

Of course, I'm used to very long classes so I could be biased, but I think 20 to 30 minutes is a great stretch/warmup and is needed in every class.

Just my own opinions,
7sm

The problem is, the school I'm referring to isn't doing basics as part of the PT before class. About 1/4 of it is stretching, the rest is push ups, crunches, squat thrusts, deep knee bends, and so on. I've always been of the opinion the best warm ups are just going through the basic technique. Hell, that's a whole class in a lot of cases.

Jeff

 

[RevIV]

calisthenics in my opinion is a very important part of the martial arts. Look how many fat black belts are out there. I personally fight with my weight all the time and i am a full time instructor. I do not see any problems while doing your material to drop down and do 20. Plus, when first learning your body mechanics how else would you be learning perfection without doing it a thousand times(which is a great cardio). I cannot rely on all of my students to go home and do all the things nec. and just come to class to learn the next technique. Each student in the school is there for one reason or another, some to just get away from home and stress, some to learn how to fight. Both of these people will benefit from the calisthenics. I dont want a black belt who cant do a sit up or a good push-up, just like i do not want a student to have sloppy technique. A good instructor will include the days techniques into the beginning workout. remember this is all just a "IMHO"
In Peace
Jesse Dwire

 

[Bigshadow]

My theory is this... The bad guy who is about to each my lunch on the street isn't going to wait for me to stretch and warm up. I need to already be ready for what may come. Of course I don't excise as often as I should or stretch every single day, but I do often and I also have hobbies that are physically challenging, like getting ready for the 40+ mile bicycle ride in October.

Our classes are typically 3 hours long.

Of course this works well for me, but it may not work well for others.

 

[Bigshadow]

In the three hours of my class, I want to learn what I am there to learn and that is budo. Yes, being that I am a fat black belt, it is a light cardio workout, but I hang in there with the rest of those young and fit ninjers! Bottom line, I am in the dojo to train. I go to the gym to work out.

 

[RevIV]

absolutely right,, there is no stretching before a real fight, but the probability of both people getting some kindof injury is good. so i say wait for the real fight, pull a muscle then, not when training so if the fight happens you are not already injured.
Jesse

 

[Bigshadow]

Oh, BTW, I am not advocating not exercising or stretching, I just say do it before you come to class. Certainly everyone should stretch and exercise.

 

[mrhnau]

IMHO, calisthenics and exercises should be the responsibility of the practitioner. The dojo isn't a health club. It is a terrible waste of time to do calisthenics instead of training. Martial arts is a committment. That means spending time to stetch and exercise on your own time, not class time. It needs to be incorporated into your daily life.

In fact, I don't stretch or warm up before class. I show up, change, and I am ready to play. I try to make exercise and fitness part of my life outside of the dojo as well as eat properly.

We don't waste dojo time with calisthenics.

I totally agree... part of my irritation has been my class was reduced from 2 hours to 1:30, which includes about 15-20 minutes of stretching/chatting. The instructor shows up late (grrr), so we are left w/ just about 1:00 to 0:45 for learning something new (less if you discount rolling/breakfalls). Having class twice a week, you just don't get that much I'd much rather warm up before class (get there early if need be) or do it at home/gym when I have time. I'm there to learn...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm all for showing good exercises and stretches to students. But in an adult class, you shouldn't have to worry about having them perform them there.

As far as basics go, yes, drill the hell out of basics. That's the only way anyone will learn them. I never said you shouldn't. I'm talking about calisthenics, not reps of kihon. Best way to strengthen your body for them as well I think.

Jeff

 

[Bigshadow]

(less if you discount rolling/breakfalls).

That is something that we don't do every class. We go over them when we get new students so that they are shown how to do them and get a little practice in, but we don't make them part of every class. Everyone is expected to practice rolling and breakfalls on their own time, after being shown. Of course if some has a question about them, we will end up spending 10 or 15 minutes doing them as a class to help the student out, which gives the rest of us a refresher and shows whether or not we have done any practice

However, we practice ukemi every class!

 

[IcemanSK]

In my days as a student, class was 2 hours long 3-4 days a week. PT was part of the training. Now I teach kids (1 hour twice a week) & I keep debating whether to do much PT or get right to "the good stuff." An hour isn't a whole lot of time to train.

But I also realize that kids today don't get the exercize that kids did in the past....& they probably aren't training on thir own (actually, I can tell they're not). So, if I have em for 2 hours a week, push-ups, ab work & other PT is a part of every class.

 

[King]

How interesting, I was just thinking about this topic over the weekend. Right now I'm 50/50 on this because I do see the benefits of getting down to the meat and potatoes to learn. However I know myself and if the calisthenics was not included in the program, they would never get done. It's different when you have to do it with a group. But I do like having the extra time for learning and it's not like you don't sweat while performing techniques. However I realize that having the calisthenics built into the program can help me get used to the routine.

 

[matt.m]

You should do calestenics and stretching before training. Get injured in the fight not the sparring.

 

[mrhnau]

You should do calestenics and stretching before training. Get injured in the fight not the sparring.

in class or before class? structured?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm all for the 30 minute "calisthentics" before class.

1) It does warm you up before the strenuous activity.

2) The best workout is NOT basics, techniques are fueled by attributes such as speed, strength, coordination, flexibility. These attributes are achieved by and maintained by actually working out not drilling basic movements.

3) Working out should be done on our own, but many don't. Also those who do workout shouldn't really mind 30 minutes of "extra" exercise every little bit helps and 30 minutes is definitely a little bit. I hear the part about "that's not what you pay for". When I was going through the ranks it was "you paid for the training of a qualified instructor, the instructor is the expert and that's why you pay him, so listen to his training advise so you can get what you pay for." It's not Burger King, you don't have it your way. That's where the commercialism goes to far...people tell the "expert" how to teach them instead of letting the expert do what has been proven to work. People want the results that the expert got without the same work/training method the expert uses/advocates.

4) Crunches aren't related to martial arts? Try guard work in Ju Jitsu or knee thrusts in stand-up. Deep Knee Bends not helpful? - Try a shoulder wheel throw or a lifting shoot or any low stance technique with a weight load. Jumping Jacks not helpful? bounce around the ring and tell me what your feet are doing. Push ups not helpful? try escaping a pin when your opponent is heavier than you, or making a little room for your technique from a tight bear hug, try blunting a shoot attempt, heck try throwing a solid punch without a puch-up motion.

Things like this is why I teach mostly for free as a club and not commercial. I am not going to have someone pay me and then tell me how to teach them. If they know how better to train than I do then they should be training me. I surely don't tell my instructor how to train me and what's important for me as a student and what isn't, that's why he is the instructor, that's his job.

When is the last time someone went to college and told the professor to alter the syllabus because they didn't want to do part of it? When was the last time someone told the surgeon to cut them in a different place because they knew better? When was the last time a professional athlete told the winning coaches how to run the practices (and didn't get benched) ......still thinking? exactly the point.

Long story short if you go to someone for training do what they tell you to do as it's part of their program. That's an instructor's job not a students. If you don't like the program then train elsewhere. If you like the way an instructor performs then listen to him/her on how to make you perform too. That is why your there...or are you there just to do what you want to do?

My two cents....and a nickel

 

[Bigshadow]

Get injured in the fight not the sparring.

Matt this really isn't directed at you, but the philosophy that you and someone else stated earlier. I have been thinking about the saying and I just don't understand the logic. I wouldn't want to be injured in either. In fact, it could be down right deadly to become injured on the street. It seems to me that one would make stretching part of their (almost) daily life and this way you can achieve both.

 

[7starmantis]

My theory is this... The bad guy who is about to each my lunch on the street isn't going to wait for me to stretch and warm up. I need to already be ready for what may come. Of course I don't excise as often as I should or stretch every single day, but I do often and I also have hobbies that are physically challenging, like getting ready for the 40+ mile bicycle ride in October.

Our classes are typically 3 hours long.

Of course this works well for me, but it may not work well for others.

This is a good point, but you also wont be fighting this bad guy for 3 hours. At least I sure hope not! In training is when you need to really perform well, you need to push yourself. There is a huge difference in doing fighting drills when your fresh and when you've spent 30 minutes running, jumping, rolling, kicking, etc.

In the three hours of my class, I want to learn what I am there to learn and that is budo. Yes, being that I am a fat black belt, it is a light cardio workout, but I hang in there with the rest of those young and fit ninjers! Bottom line, I am in the dojo to train. I go to the gym to work out.

This is a pet peve of mine, so everyone hold on to your butts. I personally believe what I ma there to learn includes the PT. In fact, I'm there to learn so I really can't say what is and is not needed in class, I'm not teaching, I'm just there to learn. Sometimes the warmup is a gut check to make yourself push on and decide if you really want to learn. There is something to that be it mental or physiological. Also, I dont think you can seperate "train" and "work out". To do so is a great understatement to what martial arts is, in my opinion. Its the whole balance issue again. You must have balance in all things. You can't learn techniques that will be effective without the proper conditioning and drive to perform them. To seperate the mentality of "training" and "working out" is to rip apart what fighting is. To push yourself beyond its normal routine both physically and mentally at the same time is close to reality of a fight than learning some moves and then hitting the gym. How will you perform those moves under pressure? When exhausted? After fighting for 20 minutes? Why waste the time in your training to get a workout as well? 30 minutes is absolutely nothing and what can you learn in an hour that you can't in 45 minutes? Or what can you learn in 1.5 hours that you can't in 1 hour? I dont like the continued need for learning new things and the idea that you must be learning and not working out. What is a move learned worth if it involves no "working out"? The idea that you must continually feed your hunger for more information or "moves" is conter productive in my opinion. We should slow down and workout with our newly learned techniques and try them on in all situations and probabilities before going back for seconds if you will.

Sorry, rant is done, off my soapbox....just hit a nerve thats all.


7sm

 

[fireman00]

Of course on the street you're not going to have time to warm up, but why bother tempting fate and pull, stretch or tear something in class 'cuz the muscles aren't warmed up.

Personaly I think that push ups, situps, squats, jumping jacks, etc are just as much a part of part of martial arts training as doing basic kicks/ punches.