Push-ups or techniques?

[7starmantis]

The problem is the viewing of a "warmup" as bringin about "physical fitness". I agree that the ultimate responsibility for physical fitness lies on the shoulders of the individual, but a warmup before class is certainly not going to give someone an acceptable level of physical fitness. Thats not why its there and certainly not why I'm an advocate of the warmup. Its that we have seperated learning martial techniques from "work" and I think that is a huge mistake. Basically if you take the responsibility of increasing your fitness level on your own, the 20-30 minute warmup will be no big deal and will be over before you even really break a sweat.

That brings us to the next issue I have. The "value for my money" issue. Since when have we as students had the decision of what is or is not valid or "needed" in martial arts training under an instructor or style? We have started placing levels of importance on something we know nothing about. We have also set some kind of timeline on how quickly we should be learning said amount of material or how quickly we should learn new material. Again, that should be under the instruction of the teacher, not the student. I learn new things when I can demonsrate and acceptable level of understanding and ability to apply learned technique or material. Do I as the student decide when I have reached that acceptable point? Should I since I'm paying for it? I personally dont think so, I trust my sifu and am willing to blindly perform whatever he tells me in order to reach the level of skill he has. I can accept that I do not understand it all and must at times trust him to lead me correctly even when I dont understand it.

Thirdly, on the subject of "options". I think that dumbs down your class, gives the idea that some of it is not important and can inflate egos of students who do not feel they "need" the warmup quicker than anything else I can think of. Also, how many people will "choose" to take the harder road when given the choice? Especially if the idea is that its not "needed" to perform the material learned.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[MJS]

I think that the amount of time spent on the warmups should be figured into the time of the class. If the class is 1hr., 10 min, 15 max, IMO, would be good. Any more than that, and depending on class size, you could be missing out on alot of learning time.

As I said in my other post, going through the material, punches, kicks, kata, etc., will also provide that cardio and strength as well.

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

AAll of the classes that I take, everyone arrives early and begins to stretch out prior to the start of the class. There is 5-10 min of stretching/warmup and then we get into the meat of the class. Working on the punches, kicks, bag work etc., provides a good workout so thats all the more reason IMO, to not spend a huge amount of time in the beginning. Running thru techniques, kata, etc., will also give that cardio workout, but speaking for myself, I'm there to learn and work the material.

I agree with that! In our class, the 5 to 10 minutes of stretching is very informal and personal and it is BEFORE class, if someone wants to do it, it is not part of the class. I stretch lightly throughout the day, so when I get to class, I am generally ready for class. I may do a few stretches once in a while. However stretching is not part of class, but something people choose to do before class. If people aren't stretched out before class, they will be before the class is over.

I am there to learn budo. Even in 3 hours, it often seems there is not enough time to cover all the things we want to cover.

Also, I believe the training style probably is a big factor here.

 

[Bigshadow]

Its to really learn the techniques your being taught and adapting them, trying them from every possible angle. Its about learning your body and how it moves and how it should move. Its about takinga mental lesson and engraining it into your physical muslce memory and teaching your body to react the way it needs to be done. That simply takes conditioning nad endurance as well as speed, strength, etc. Why belong to a martial arts school and a gym when you can get it all at the same place with the focus being on the same thing? The workout you get in the gym can be had at the "dojo" but customized to fit your training and even help you leran more.

I disagree. Much of what you described is mental. It is about the feeling of it. Becoming familiar to the feeling of something. Muscle-memory is a misnomer. It really isn't that the muscles remember, it is your brain that remembers the feeling of the movement or the action. It just takes doing something over and over. Your muscles don't remember how to write, your brain does, it knows how the pencil feels in your hand, it knows how the hand needs to move. It is the same as riding a bike or hitting a baseball. This is irregardless of ones endurance, speed, and strength. If they don't have these things, they simply cannot do those things as fast, strong, or for as long as someone else. I am not against fitness, please don't get me wrong. I believe fitness can be a by-product of training, if one's training doesn't give a great deal of fitness, then one needs to supplement it.

I thing this debate largely depends on the style of training.

Again, just my own opinions from my training and experiences...hope I have not offended...

No offense here. Just expressing my opinions as well. This is an excellent topic and I agree with others, that all sides have presented some very thought provoking points.

 

[mrhnau]

I dont think the idea would be to account for every possibility. I dont think I'm being clear enough with my point. I'm not saying the "warm up" should be done to give the students a workout, or that it should be done to exhaust the students. Those are side effects that are great, but its to prepare the student for the actual workout which is after the "warmup". Its to prepare the student for the "test" which is to defend themselves. A true realistic self defense situation is very hard on the body and you must train your body to be able to withstand that stress or your will not be victorious, or go home in one piece. The warm up is not preparing for self defense, it has far reaching effects but does not translate specifically to self defense. The warm up shouldn't be the hardest part of the workout or really completely exhaust the student. Training in different conditions and different times is most certainly a good idea though.

I think alot of people so far in this thread have said it well. Physical fitness is great and can be beneficial. I have no problem with that. Want to stretch some before class? ok. Want to make me run in circles or do push ups for 30 minutes? As alot of people have said, thats something I'd do just as well at home.

I'm currently a student at a university. They have all kinds of classes. In order to keep your mind sharp, its good to have a bit of exercise. So, its beneficial. However, I don't go to my chemistry class expecting to get warmed up before hand. The teachers expertise is in chemistry, not in phys ed. Thats why I go to him and pay him to teach me. If I wanted phys ed classes, I'd go take one.

Granted, in this example, chemistry is not quite as "physical", so lets try another angle. I don't go to chemistry class to learn calculus. I might -use- calculus (and frequently do), but the chemistry expert is not required to educate me in calculus, but rather in chemistry. Thats his area of expertise. Does he know calculus? Sure. However, we have calculus teachers to teach that specific topic.

I agree to a point. The MT or Karate argument is valid, however being in mantis which is often considered even more "soft" than aikido the "style philosophies" is a moot point. I dont really understand how you could even say fighting and working out are not strongly coupled. Fighting is using your body to perform and react to given stimulus in a specific and effective manner. If your body is not conditioned to be able to react and move in the most effective way you are setting yourself up for failure and in my own opinion giving yourself a false sense of security. Working out does not only relate to strength, but cardiovascular endurance, speed, power, ability to opporate under pressure, etc. Its simply not true to say physical techniques do not rely on physical fitness. Thats absurd. A Technique relys on the body's ability to perform, bottom line. I'll tell you this, most fights I've seen both in the ring and on the "streets" have come down to endurance. A much more skilled fighter can loose quickly to a more conditioned fighter, thats just fact. I study a very principle driven style that does not rely on strength/endurance but that is not the whole picture when discussing fighting. It doesn't rely on it that doesn't mean it doesn't require it. Your right though, maybe it is style/philosophy specific. More than that maybe its intent specific. What is the intent of your training? That may be more along the lines of the distinction.

Are you implying that physical fitness is paramount? Then I'd always lose to someone stronger/better fit than me? I know you are not saying that. I'd be shocked to go to an Aikido class and see everyone pumping iron before hand. I'd not be suprised to see them stretching a bit though. I'd not be suprised to go to a boxing gym and see people pumping iron though.

Of course "fighting" is physical. If I wanted to learn how to destroy someone or fight in a ring, then I understand the need to become stronger, have more endurance. That is not my objective. My intent in training is to get home. Bottom line. I don't care about ring fighting, or going to bars looking for brawls. I want to protect myself and my family if the need ever does arise. Does that require being fit? sure. Does chemistry require calculus? sure. I just don't see the need to teach calculus in my chemistry class.

This is exactly my point, you have said it better than I could. Tactical stuff. It seems you relate fighting (specifically self defense fighting) more to shooting skeet while I relate it moer to tactical firearms training. In a fight you are doing tactical stuff (running around while figihting) which require the neccesary skills of "running around". Realistic self defense fighting is not learning magic techniques that you can use against any opponent regardles of your physical state of being, we are in a physical realm and thus must train that part of our body in conjunction with our technqiues. To train them seperately is to seperate two needed parts of the fighting equation.

Umm... yes and no. Training for precision (sniper) is different than training tactical. Different objectives. Being a sniper, you need a steady hand, lowered heart beat. Tactical, you don't care if you hit the -exact- mark, as long as you hit enough to disable/injure. Your heart rate will be elevated and you won't have a steady hand. You might be taking multiple shots.

Which one is the "truth"? Depends. I'm not planning on taking multiple attacks on my opponent. I just want to diffuse attack/remove myself. One defensive manuerver would be great for me, but that depends on the situation. Probably the "truth" lies closer to the tactical in most circumstances. depends...

My point was not really to compare tactical/precision shooting, just to point out that they have different aspects of requisites. Both are shooting, but one requires a higher physical element, while the other does not necessarily require it. In the same way, I'd expect a boxer to have a different set of requirements than an aikidoka. Their training and motive will be different. You might be suprised if you see a precision shooter doing push-ups or running around before hand, but you would be suprised if an aikidoka would not?

This is my main pet peve...the idea that there are fighting arts that do not need stretching or working out. That is the biggest misconception in the martial arts in my opinion. I hit on it earlier, but all fighting needs physical conditioning...fighting is physical....I can't even think of how else to say it. I agree with the "dont go" sentament, but I can't believe there are "arts" that profess no working out needed. I'm shocked, seriously.

Fighting is physical. Survival is not. I don't care if I have the label "great fighter". Thats irrelevant. I'd be happy to go through my life w/out ever having to fight. As an adult, I understand the logic of being in good shape, however, I don't need someone trying to drill me with pushups before class though. I guess there are adults w/out that level of discipline or availability of time though. I could understand if they need that in class. Personally, I do not. Perhaps there will be a time when I do (ie I don't have enough free time anymore).

To me, its the same chemistry/calculus thingy... Go to a chemistry expert to learn chemistry, a calculus expert to learn calculus. Is your style more calculus or chemistry? a mix of both? Do you -need- calculus to do chemistry? no, but it sure does help, especially if you want to do higher level chemistry (try doing quantum chemistry w/out it ). If I ever do need more calculus than chemistry, perhaps I'd change my training or style to get more calculus.

Anyways, thats just my take...

 

[RevIV]

I am not sure how many of you are full time teachers.. but I am and this is my only job.. I knew this was going to be my job when my teacher handed me the keys to his school at 14. Now with that said it is hard to run a commercial school and keep the standards.. Probably why i am considered a small commercial school.. i still believe in testing and unfortunetly at times having to fail students who do not make it through the test either physically or they mess up their material.. Not sure if you realize this but the majority of commercial schools are only 45 minutes long and wellllllllllll... never mind you know how they are.. After this thread that i started reading yesterday i went into my school and changed my hours. I have always been a 1 hour class school 2-3 times a week, thats all i can allot to get the students in all week. As of sept. 1st all adult classes will be going 15 minutes longer. there will be 30 minutes were the beginners and advanced adults will be together doing bag work with boxing gloves and just about anything I can think of for calisthenics. Now the advanced will be more than warmed up for the rest of the class to do material plus getting in better shape.. I am sorry but with 60% of the American youth being obese and i dont even know the #'s for adults being unhealthy and overweight, this is no time for Martial Leaders to say -- ahh just go to the gym if you want to loose more weight.. This just does not make sense to me. so thank you for making me see that we need even more cardio in the class. and it is good cardio because they will get to pound on the bags.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I run a nice 10 minute warm up concentrating on stretching. Then we are into rolling, breakfalls, evasive jumping techniques, etc. The warm up is then continued with our 1 -19 Striking drills and finally we are into the major technique portion of the class. I personally believe that push ups, sit ups/crunches, free squats, weight lifting, running, aerobics, etc. should be handled out of class. During a normal class I raise the workout level with different drills to help students with their cardiovascular but by and large they are there to learn technical skills. Major strength building, etc. should be handled out of class. Oh and during class we are working out very, very hard on the techniques with lots of sweat, body movement, etc. so that everyone really feels it at the end of the day.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[mrhnau]

I am not sure how many of you are full time teachers.. but I am and this is my only job.. I knew this was going to be my job when my teacher handed me the keys to his school at 14. Now with that said it is hard to run a commercial school and keep the standards.. Probably why i am considered a small commercial school.. i still believe in testing and unfortunetly at times having to fail students who do not make it through the test either physically or they mess up their material.. Not sure if you realize this but the majority of commercial schools are only 45 minutes long and wellllllllllll... never mind you know how they are.. After this thread that i started reading yesterday i went into my school and changed my hours. I have always been a 1 hour class school 2-3 times a week, thats all i can allot to get the students in all week. As of sept. 1st all adult classes will be going 15 minutes longer. there will be 30 minutes were the beginners and advanced adults will be together doing bag work with boxing gloves and just about anything I can think of for calisthenics. Now the advanced will be more than warmed up for the rest of the class to do material plus getting in better shape.. I am sorry but with 60% of the American youth being obese and i dont even know the #'s for adults being unhealthy and overweight, this is no time for Martial Leaders to say -- ahh just go to the gym if you want to loose more weight.. This just does not make sense to me. so thank you for making me see that we need even more cardio in the class. and it is good cardio because they will get to pound on the bags.
In Peace
Jesse

More power to you Fundamentally its up to the instructor, and what they feel is necessary.

The obesity rate is a bit ridiculous. I'll have to agree with that...

Good luck with the changes!

 

[RevIV]

Thanks, i think the people will like the changes. Plus where i started my Kempo we did a lot of boxing in it. so its time for a come back.. i do understand what others are saying and doing techniques with a partner in my opinion is very draining, and i love that too. I just want to be able to give the people all they want so they do not need to feel they should have to go to the gym too.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[CuongNhuka]

What we do is stand in Horse Stance and throw punches for a few minutes, then change to doing two punches starting with the left. Then a few minutes later two puches starting with the right. Followed by a few minutes of doing three punches. Then 20 to 60 push ups. The variation is base on the rank of the lowest ranked student. Then 2 minutes of streching, about 12 minutes of basic kicks. And finally we do rolls. All time told, about half an hour.
We have one hour long class meant for folks in the beginner and intermediate ranks. Then imidiatly after one meant for folks in the advanced ranks. You can go for either, but that is the focus.

 

[7starmantis]

I disagree. Much of what you described is mental. It is about the feeling of it. Becoming familiar to the feeling of something. Muscle-memory is a misnomer. It really isn't that the muscles remember, it is your brain that remembers the feeling of the movement or the action. It just takes doing something over and over. Your muscles don't remember how to write, your brain does, it knows how the pencil feels in your hand, it knows how the hand needs to move. It is the same as riding a bike or hitting a baseball. This is irregardless of ones endurance, speed, and strength. If they don't have these things, they simply cannot do those things as fast, strong, or for as long as someone else. I am not against fitness, please don't get me wrong. I believe fitness can be a by-product of training, if one's training doesn't give a great deal of fitness, then one needs to supplement it.

While much of what I described may be mental it is only learned through physical means. Muscle memory is by no means a misnomer and its not totally accurate to say the muscles dont remember it. There is extensive research into the ability of muscles to "remember" even the heart (muslce). That being said, sure its cerebral but how does it become so? Its the same issue of the "complient bad guy" when training. You need someone to let you do the techniques at first, but then you need to really learn them and you need someone to try and resist them. Let me get back to the muscle memory issue. With constant practice, the neural networks and motor neuron/muscle group pathways become fast and effortless, requiring no conscious thought to achieve the required behavior. Is this actually in the muscle or in the brain? Neither really, but thats semantical and I'm anti-semantic The fact remains that to tie your shoes requires no conscious thought, but that didn't come from watching a diagram of shoe tying nor from practicing on a model shoe and learning each step. It came from the continued tying of your own shoes in real time when actually needed. Lets take your "riding a bike" example. We must define what the action of riding a bike really is. Is it understanding the needed requirements to opporate a bike or is it the actual physical riding of a bike? Knowing how to ride a bike and being able to ride a bike are very different things. I would suggest that for true life or death self defense more than a knowledge of what would be needed to fight for your life would be desireable....I may be the only one...but I desire more than that. You said:

This is irregardless of ones endurance, speed, and strength. If they don't have these things, they simply cannot do those things as fast, strong, or for as long as someone else.

When it comes to survival and defending your life or the life of a loved one, being able to do it faster, stronger, or for longer than someone else plays a major major role. This is my biggest issue, everyone thinks they can learn a technique and be proficient at it without working on it from every possible scenario and such. Everyone seems to want to seperate speed, strength, endurance from effective fighting. Thats simply not possible and to do so is just unrealistic. What if the person who attacks you is faster, stronger, and has more endurance than you? People seem to think their perfectly learned techniques will overcome all these issues, thats simply not the case. Ok, say it does...you go home...say it doesn't...what then?

Granted, in this example, chemistry is not quite as "physical", so lets try another angle. I don't go to chemistry class to learn calculus. I might -use- calculus (and frequently do), but the chemistry expert is not required to educate me in calculus, but rather in chemistry. Thats his area of expertise. Does he know calculus? Sure. However, we have calculus teachers to teach that specific topic.

Yet your still required to know and use the calculus in the chemestry class. In some cases it may even be a pre requisite class. Now niether of these are proper examples as they do not deal with the same issue. Do you need to know how to handle glassware in the chemestry lab? Do they go over that in every chemestry lab. What about lab safety, do you have to learn and practice a certain routine of safety everytime you come to lab, you certainly do, its part of what you need to perfrom the needed behavior correctly.

Are you implying that physical fitness is paramount? Then I'd always lose to someone stronger/better fit than me? I know you are not saying that. I'd be shocked to go to an Aikido class and see everyone pumping iron before hand. I'd not be suprised to see them stretching a bit though. I'd not be suprised to go to a boxing gym and see people pumping iron though.

To a degree, yes I am. I dont "pump iron" at all, but I do run, do body weight, etc. Your still viewing this as a process to create physical fitness, its not so. Its a part of physical training. A 20 - 30 minute warmup is not going to increase physical fitness or give you any real level of fitness, so that viewpoint of the warmup is moot. Its not there to increase or create physical fitness, its there to help learn martial skill. You cannot learn a martial art or a martial skill without the things that are martial in nature such as kicks, punches, cardio work etc. Just not going to happen. As far as self defense, if the attacker is in good shape, has some fighting skill, what happens when your self defense technique doesn't work too well and you still have to deal with the attacker? Fighting is a strange thing, endurance, cardio fitness, and mental stamina can overcome many many techniques and even injury or trauma. I've seen people fight off several attackers with bullets in their body, odd fixtures impailing them, etc. To ignore the conditioning of the body for fighting is a serious mistake. Learning self defense is only partly academic. You must also learn and teach your body to perform the needed behaviors associated with defending yourself. Working out in the gym is simply not the same thing as conditioning you body for fighting. the cardio and such can transfer to a point, but there is an old saying, "there is being in shape and there is being in kung fu shape". Its simply different muscle groups, movements, reactions, etc.

Of course "fighting" is physical. If I wanted to learn how to destroy someone or fight in a ring, then I understand the need to become stronger, have more endurance. That is not my objective. My intent in training is to get home. Bottom line. I don't care about ring fighting, or going to bars looking for brawls. I want to protect myself and my family if the need ever does arise. Does that require being fit? sure. Does chemistry require calculus? sure. I just don't see the need to teach calculus in my chemistry class.

Well, maybe its all a matter of intent, but I for one am wanting to destroy a person if they make me believe my life or my family's life is in danger. Its a grave mistake to assume that you can learn a technique mentally and then be able to apply it to all possible scenarios and situations. Its also a grave mistake to assume any technique can and will difuse any self defense situation and allow you to calmly walk home. If your attacked and your life is in danger you may be able to difuse it quickly, but you may also be in for the fight of your life....I dont place odds on which one I will come across first.

​

Umm... yes and no. Training for precision (sniper) is different than training tactical. Different objectives. Being a sniper, you need a steady hand, lowered heart beat. Tactical, you don't care if you hit the -exact- mark, as long as you hit enough to disable/injure. Your heart rate will be elevated and you won't have a steady hand. You might be taking multiple shots.

Ok, lets use this example. A sniper needs a lowered heart beat, which means good cardiovascular health....how do you think one gets that? You could say running is not needed when "sniping" but yet we see that it is most certainly needed and the benefits are shared. I dont think you are trying to say that tactical shooting doesn't require hitting the target or hitting the exact mark. That is not true and having a slower heart rate and steady hands is most certainly a benefit to a tactical shooter....again one doesn't get those benefits by target practice. Now a shooting course may not have you out running miles in the sun, but there are many that have you running with your weapon to get you to a certain state and then requiring you to shoot. This is objective specific PT which is exactly what a 20 to 30 minute warmup in a martial arts class is.

​

Which one is the "truth"? Depends. I'm not planning on taking multiple attacks on my opponent. I just want to diffuse attack/remove myself. One defensive manuerver would be great for me, but that depends on the situation. Probably the "truth" lies closer to the tactical in most circumstances. depends...

I'm really confused by this statement. I guess this is where our training differs. I just dont see one defensive manuver saving anyone from a serious life or death self defense situation. Plus, what happens if you do remove yourself from the situation and he comes back at you again? Its simply unrealistic to put faith in any one manuver or technique, especially without the base of cardiovascular endurance and stamina. To not take multiple attacks on your opponent or to try some type of non violent defusing of a violent self defense situation is suicide in my book. You must remove the threat of violence and that includes lots more than one manuver. The one hit one kill mentality is and has been proven wrong.

​

Fighting is physical. Survival is not. I don't care if I have the label "great fighter". Thats irrelevant. I'd be happy to go through my life w/out ever having to fight. As an adult, I understand the logic of being in good shape, however, I don't need someone trying to drill me with pushups before class though. I guess there are adults w/out that level of discipline or availability of time though. I could understand if they need that in class. Personally, I do not. Perhaps there will be a time when I do (ie I don't have enough free time anymore).

I disagree 100%. In martial arts when discussing violent physical attacks, survival is most deffinitely physical. I dont care if I have the label of "great fighter" or not either, I only care about taking myself home safely and in one piece. I would love to go through life without having to fight, sadly that has allready come to pass in my life. Its not about discipline or being drilled. Its about learning objective specifc skills in objective specifc environments. Its not the pushups or the "ripped chest" they give that is the benefit in my opinion, its the exhausting of the chest and arm muscles before having to use them to perform martial behaviors that gives benefit. How can you learn speed that applies to fighting if you never work on speed in fighting? You simply can't seperate the academic portion and the physical portion of martial arts.

​

To me, its the same chemistry/calculus thingy... Go to a chemistry expert to learn chemistry, a calculus expert to learn calculus. Is your style more calculus or chemistry? a mix of both? Do you -need- calculus to do chemistry? no, but it sure does help, especially if you want to do higher level chemistry (try doing quantum chemistry w/out it ). If I ever do need more calculus than chemistry, perhaps I'd change my training or style to get more calculus.

A chemestry expert didn't become so by only sitting in chemestry classes reading the periodical table. Your example is flawed, but I would say yes you do need clculus to perform true chemestry. Its flawed because your trying to make it one demensional and its not. The physical application of learned techniques takes physical activity so you can't remove physical fitness from the learning process. I'm not talking about running 5 miles in class, but a 20 - 30 minute warmup is certainly not going to take too much time to learn something. Why is there some rule of how much must be learned in one class? Your workout comes from the techniques your learning and doing them during class, but to get your body ready for that takes some warmup. Also, learning realistic self defense cannot be approached from a purely academic standpoint, you must get in there and apply it alot to really "own" it.

​

Just my 2 cents.

​

7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Just as an aside, ask a military sniper how much running is required. Not just to lower your heartbeat while shooting, but for after the shot. The best way to take out a sniper is through indirect fire. I was trained that after you take you shot(s), you need to get a terrain feature or a kilometer away as quickly as possible. That means running. With lots of gear.

Jeff

 

[Bigshadow]

You need someone to let you do the techniques at first, but then you need to really learn them and you need someone to try and resist them.

The fact remains that to tie your shoes requires no conscious thought, but that didn't come from watching a diagram of shoe tying nor from practicing on a model shoe and learning each step.

Is it understanding the needed requirements to opporate a bike or is it the actual physical riding of a bike? Knowing how to ride a bike and being able to ride a bike are very different things.
​

I certainly wasn't suggesting that one learns something without doing it. Of course one must DO, it isn't about thinking.

When it comes to survival and defending your life or the life of a loved one, being able to do it faster, stronger, or for longer than someone else plays a major major role.

I never suggested that we shouldn't have fitness. We all should strive to be the most fit we can possibly be. Just like we try to be the best we can be in the dojo, so we should in life.

A 20 - 30 minute warmup is not going to increase physical fitness or give you any real level of fitness, so that viewpoint of the warmup is moot.

All I was getting at, was warming up doesn't have to be part of valueable dojo time. In our case and even seminars I have been to, we do that stuff before class on our own.

​

 

[mrhnau]

When it comes to survival and defending your life or the life of a loved one, being able to do it faster, stronger, or for longer than someone else plays a major major role. This is my biggest issue, everyone thinks they can learn a technique and be proficient at it without working on it from every possible scenario and such. Everyone seems to want to seperate speed, strength, endurance from effective fighting. Thats simply not possible and to do so is just unrealistic. What if the person who attacks you is faster, stronger, and has more endurance than you? People seem to think their perfectly learned techniques will overcome all these issues, thats simply not the case. Ok, say it does...you go home...say it doesn't...what then?

I'm not condoning being out of shape and having absolutely no muscle/endurance at all. Shoot, even if you take the "flight" rather than "fight" path, you better be able to run faster than your opponent LOL

So, what happens when you get older? You no longer have speed, your strength has probably diminished, and you won't have as much endurance. What you do have is technique. I've met -alot- of older guys I'd not want to fight. Its not that they could run faster, jump higher, strike harder, but they had an understanding of the art (in my case bujinkan) that does not require you to be the strongest on the block to defeat your foe. Alot of times in my class I get told "relax" rather than trying to muscle through a technique. You know what? When I'm relaxed, the technique sure works alot better. This is probably not consistent w/ other arts (boxing, muay thai, ect), but I've found that to be true in my training. Some of the less strong people in my class still had strong technique.

Yet your still required to know and use the calculus in the chemestry class. In some cases it may even be a pre requisite class. Now niether of these are proper examples as they do not deal with the same issue. Do you need to know how to handle glassware in the chemestry lab? Do they go over that in every chemestry lab. What about lab safety, do you have to learn and practice a certain routine of safety everytime you come to lab, you certainly do, its part of what you need to perfrom the needed behavior correctly.

Exactly. You have prerequisites for chemistry. Relating this to martial arts, what are the prerequisites? What are the set of skills you should pick up on your own vs pick up in class? Certain exercises may be great for your style. I have no problem with that. A boxer wants to lift weights while training, or a TKD person wants to do 100 kicks. That works! More power to you! I don't expect the same from an aikidoka though.

To a degree, yes I am. I dont "pump iron" at all, but I do run, do body weight, etc. Your still viewing this as a process to create physical fitness, its not so. Its a part of physical training. A 20 - 30 minute warmup is not going to increase physical fitness or give you any real level of fitness, so that viewpoint of the warmup is moot. Its not there to increase or create physical fitness, its there to help learn martial skill. You cannot learn a martial art or a martial skill without the things that are martial in nature such as kicks, punches, cardio work etc. Just not going to happen. As far as self defense, if the attacker is in good shape, has some fighting skill, what happens when your self defense technique doesn't work too well and you still have to deal with the attacker? Fighting is a strange thing, endurance, cardio fitness, and mental stamina can overcome many many techniques and even injury or trauma. I've seen people fight off several attackers with bullets in their body, odd fixtures impailing them, etc. To ignore the conditioning of the body for fighting is a serious mistake. Learning self defense is only partly academic. You must also learn and teach your body to perform the needed behaviors associated with defending yourself. Working out in the gym is simply not the same thing as conditioning you body for fighting. the cardio and such can transfer to a point, but there is an old saying, "there is being in shape and there is being in kung fu shape". Its simply different muscle groups, movements, reactions, etc.

Life is sure dynamic isn't it Props to those who develop in that fashion. Boxers train different than aikidoka because they need to be in different types of shape to effectively execute their goals. I agree that fitness can help you overcome alot of obsticles, but its not the final answer in things. Would you rather fighting someone that can run 10 miles and bench press 300 lbs or some shihan w/ buckets of knowledge on how to make your life miserable? Granted, its great if he is in shape, but I'd wager on the shihan over the muscle man.

Well, maybe its all a matter of intent, but I for one am wanting to destroy a person if they make me believe my life or my family's life is in danger. Its a grave mistake to assume that you can learn a technique mentally and then be able to apply it to all possible scenarios and situations. Its also a grave mistake to assume any technique can and will difuse any self defense situation and allow you to calmly walk home. If your attacked and your life is in danger you may be able to difuse it quickly, but you may also be in for the fight of your life....I dont place odds on which one I will come across first.

then you hold no value in an art like Aikido? I'm not condoning just learning a technique mentally. You have to apply it of course. Thats why we train.

Ok, lets use this example. A sniper needs a lowered heart beat, which means good cardiovascular health....how do you think one gets that? You could say running is not needed when "sniping" but yet we see that it is most certainly needed and the benefits are shared. I dont think you are trying to say that tactical shooting doesn't require hitting the target or hitting the exact mark. That is not true and having a slower heart rate and steady hands is most certainly a benefit to a tactical shooter....again one doesn't get those benefits by target practice. Now a shooting course may not have you out running miles in the sun, but there are many that have you running with your weapon to get you to a certain state and then requiring you to shoot. This is objective specific PT which is exactly what a 20 to 30 minute warmup in a martial arts class is.

Art specific, as I've mentioned. One group will train differently than another. I'm not saying a sniper sits around drinking coke all day Of course they are out, getting in shape. I've got all respect for those guys. Just requires a different set of skills when sniping vs tactical.

I'm really confused by this statement. I guess this is where our training differs. I just dont see one defensive manuver saving anyone from a serious life or death self defense situation. Plus, what happens if you do remove yourself from the situation and he comes back at you again? Its simply unrealistic to put faith in any one manuver or technique, especially without the base of cardiovascular endurance and stamina. To not take multiple attacks on your opponent or to try some type of non violent defusing of a violent self defense situation is suicide in my book. You must remove the threat of violence and that includes lots more than one manuver. The one hit one kill mentality is and has been proven wrong.

Not interested in a "one hit one kill" mentality. Nor am in interested in learning just one defensive technique. Real life confrontation is going to be dynamic. Situations will change. Numbers will change. Thats one reason I train. Can one technique diffuse something? Quite possible. Might require more. Me being able to run further than my opponent(s) or bench press more may be important, but knowledge of the opponents body and my art are equally important. For instance, it takes very little force to break a knee. Very little torque to induce great pain in the joints. What if the person pulls back suddenly? Transition to a different technique.

Personally, I've been in some bad situations. However, I've never had it come to blows. Being rational and being able to diffuse a situation verbally often gets you out of trouble. I'm not one to leap in fists first if someone is upset. Sometimes that can't happen, so thats why you train physically.

I disagree 100%. In martial arts when discussing violent physical attacks, survival is most deffinitely physical. I dont care if I have the label of "great fighter" or not either, I only care about taking myself home safely and in one piece. I would love to go through life without having to fight, sadly that has allready come to pass in my life. Its not about discipline or being drilled. Its about learning objective specifc skills in objective specifc environments. Its not the pushups or the "ripped chest" they give that is the benefit in my opinion, its the exhausting of the chest and arm muscles before having to use them to perform martial behaviors that gives benefit. How can you learn speed that applies to fighting if you never work on speed in fighting? You simply can't seperate the academic portion and the physical portion of martial arts.

Fighting is physically confronting someone. Its quite possible to diffuse a situation w/out coming to blows. Thats survival. Hopefully you can diffuse before having to fight. Thats my point..

2 scenarios:

1: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. Take it out. Give it to him. Go home. Cancel your credit cards.

2: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. You attack. Someone gets injured. Maybe you, maybe him, maybe both. Maybe someone dies.

I know its not always so cut and dry, but its just a different approach to solving a problem. Even in scenario 1, you may still get attacked. Life is dynamic. Just one scenario of many, I know...

Of course you need to move your body around if it comes to a physical attack. However, if its simply a matter of the strongest/fastest, then you better be careful! Someone out there is in better shape than you! I'm not saying being out of shape is fine, I've said that a few times. However, if your art is based on muscle more than technique, you will inevitably come up w/ someone bigger and badder than you!

one of the best workouts I got was when I was testing. Had to do techniques quickly and often for about 2 hours. Great workout! Not only was I applying techniques, but I was getting some cardio done. Doing 100 pushups may get you stronger, but its not (stictly speaking) the equivelant of punching. I'd much rather do a workout w/ technique than something I could easily be doing at home. It would be fun to have classes like that more often... That I would enjoy.

A chemestry expert didn't become so by only sitting in chemestry classes reading the periodical table. Your example is flawed, but I would say yes you do need clculus to perform true chemestry. Its flawed because your trying to make it one demensional and its not. The physical application of learned techniques takes physical activity so you can't remove physical fitness from the learning process. I'm not talking about running 5 miles in class, but a 20 - 30 minute warmup is certainly not going to take too much time to learn something. Why is there some rule of how much must be learned in one class? Your workout comes from the techniques your learning and doing them during class, but to get your body ready for that takes some warmup. Also, learning realistic self defense cannot be approached from a purely academic standpoint, you must get in there and apply it alot to really "own" it.

20-30 minutes may not be too much... however, in what I wrote earlier, if you have an hour class, thats about 1/2 your class time. 2 or 3 hour class, I don't see 20 minutes as too much of a problem though. I guess thats just me

of course, you can't approach it from purely academic standpoints. Thats why we train and not just read self-defense books. How one group trains will be different from how another trains. Different arts, different philosophies. The philosophies/physical practices engrained in the art is the responsibility of the teacher. I'd be equally suprised to see an Aikidoka pumping iron as a boxer not training cardio in some fashion.

The chemistry arguement is not quite one dimensional. You need calculus to do chemistry, but you learn/study calculus in a different environment. Same way, you need physical fitness to do martial arts (to an extent) but I'd personally prefer to see it in a different environment (my own gym/time). Alot of people don't like that. I don't have a problem with that. This is just my preference.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

When you "get older" some younger, stronger and fitter kid is going to kick your *** is whats going to happen. Most of the people older than me by any signifigant ammount that seem like theyd be tough opponents is because, even at their age they are larger than me and stronger. My advantage would be speed and endurance. Technique and fitness/size will each only take you so far..When you age, thats hopefully when surprise, awareness and weapons will help even the odds. By and large the myth of the little ancient master being able to go toe to toe with younger and fitter fighters is a martial arts myth IMO. And for all the "Master so and so at 75 yo kicked my ***" stories, how many of those guys were really trying to beat up the aged master? You toss out the technique, let him demonstrate and do whats expected of you.

 

[still learning]

Hello, It takes both push-up and techniques together equals a stronger and quicker you!

In prewar Japan a Judo guy did 900 hundred push-ups a day....he was consider UNBEATABLE.....and practice techniques up 9 hours a day.

Imagine if you train this hard? ...you would be like Bruce Lee or better!!!.........Aloha

 

[Robert Lee]

Part of learning any M/A is getting in shape. The body has to be able to meet the needs of training. being fexible, improved endurance comes from the training. A person can build alot of tools but those tools need a conditioned body to keep any pace up. anytime your in shape you feel better and do better.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

My original post never said you shouldn't be fit or work out. Of course as MAs we should be fit. Heck, as human beings we should be fit. To say otherwise is just flat out idiotic.

The intent of this thread was to gather opinions about whether or not large portions of class time should be devoted to fitness.

I personally think it's a personal responsibility, and not much class time should be spent on it.

Jeff

 

[Brother John]

Hello, It takes both push-up and techniques together equals a stronger and quicker you!

In prewar Japan a Judo guy did 900 hundred push-ups a day....he was consider UNBEATABLE.....and practice techniques up 9 hours a day.

Imagine if you train this hard? ...you would be like Bruce Lee or better!!!.........Aloha

I really Really don't think the issue at stake here is "Should a martial artist do pushups"..
but the question is what should make up the bulk of the classtime, should it be a Large portion of calisthenics? Should it even be 40-50%???
I say no.

I say that a serious martial artist MUST do a good deal of exercise/conditioning and training....but should do this on their own time, not in classtime.
You bring up Bruce Lee.
From what I understood...he didn't do LOTS of calisthenics IN class, but did THOUSANDS later..

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Part of learning any M/A is getting in shape. The body has to be able to meet the needs of training. being fexible, improved endurance comes from the training. A person can build alot of tools but those tools need a conditioned body to keep any pace up. anytime your in shape you feel better and do better.

See my last post
and Jeff's....

DITO



Your Brother
John