The Korean roots of TKD

[chrispillertkd]

The funniest part is that what today most resembles taekkyon is the WTF olympic sparring (surely not a coincidence), that is a lot different even from Kukkiwon Taekwondo itself, if we compare the fight principles of both.

Hmm, I don't know about this. The WTF doesn't allow many of the techniques that are/were used in Taekkyon competitions. No sweeping, grabbing, throwing, pushing, etc. You can kick, sure, but other than that not so much in the resemblance department. Lots of other MA's allow you to kick your opponent, too.

By the way, most of those fight principles in the non-sport venue of taekwondo remain the same of karate, what is even more evident in ITF Taekwon-Do.

Interesting. Besides the "one punch, one kill" theory (taken over in the ITF as Il Kyuk Pil Sung by Gen. Choi) what fighting theories do you mean?

Pax,

Chris

 

[arnisador]

The modern Korean arts of TKD and Hapkido were formed from Japanese arts learned by Koreans studying in Japan in the first half of the 20th century:
http://www.kidokwan.org/articles/the-evolution-of-taekwondo-from-japanese-karate/

Just as the Okinawans changed kung fu and the Japanese changed the Ryukyuan arts, TKD and Hapkido are now much changed as well. Look for articles by Steven D. Capener and Dakin Burdick.

 

[Master Dan]

Opinions are like certain parts of the body everybody has one? I have trained with many in my life time and some who were dedicated to the Korean party line then after aging and much experience with the best national and global authorities on both sides all arts have said regardless each ethnic society Koreans included took what they had and made it thier own so modern TKD is unique and thier own because they made it that way better than others.

At the end of the day what difference does it make? Your health, well being, ability to defend your self is whats important not paper on the wall or some plastic trophy medal or for that matter a librarian certificate of authenticity related to what terms you use. Words do not add one day to your life.

We are all the sum totall of the person or person's who trained us and what thier knowledge base was. On paper I am TKD but I have Judo, Karate, Hapkido, Kempo Kyusho Jitsu, Shotokan as well as some CMA mixed in that are all part of TKD and TKD part of them if you can see the bigger picture.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The modern Korean arts of TKD and Hapkido were formed from Japanese arts learned by Koreans studying in Japan in the first half of the 20th century:
http://www.kidokwan.org/articles/the-evolution-of-taekwondo-from-japanese-karate/

Just as the Okinawans changed kung fu and the Japanese changed the Ryukyuan arts, TKD and Hapkido are now much changed as well. Look for articles by Steven D. Capener and Dakin Burdick.

Dakin Burdick had an excellent article years ago in the JAMA. Marc Tedishi also has quite an extensive historical background in his books on HKD and TKD.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Dakin Burdick had an excellent article years ago in the JAMA. Marc Tedishi also has quite an extensive historical background in his books on HKD and TKD.

Hmm, if it's the article by Dakin Burdick I'm thinking of he had some pretty basic historical errors in it regarding Gen. Choi. Things like when he visited North Korea the first time, which are pretty well known. Burdick states that Gen. Choi went to NK in 1966, which was the cause of his falling out of favor with the SK government. This is an error of over a decade. Caveat emptor, and all that, when reading history even by people who are well regarded because if someone gets something that basic wrong they could very well be getting other more complicated things wrong, too. Of course, that's not limited to MA history articles. I have spotted more than a few errors in scholarly works over the years.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

You are very misinformed, sir.

no he isnt, he is 100% corrrect, this was all hammered out 100's of times over the years, with fanboys like you getting wupped everytime.

TKD started out as 100% japanese karate, and nothing more.

 

[Rumy73]

no he isnt, he is 100% corrrect, this was all hammered out 100's of times over the years, with fanboys like you getting wupped everytime.

TKD started out as 100% japanese karate, and nothing more.

Fanboys? Wupped? Very humorous. Now be off to your remedial English class!

 

[Twin Fist]

apparently you need some remedial history of martial arts.

you fanboys are funny.....

 

[Instructor]

Dakin Burdick had an excellent article years ago in the JAMA. Marc Tedishi also has quite an extensive historical background in his books on HKD and TKD.

I invested in Tedeshi's massive tome titled Hapkido: Traditions, Philosophy, Technique. It's an incredible work. I've never seen a book explore a martial art so completely. My only complaint is the darn thing is too heavy. You really need a book rest to read it for long.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I invested in Tedeshi's massive tome titled Hapkido: Traditions, Philosophy, Technique. It's an incredible work. I've never seen a book explore a martial art so completely. My only complaint is the darn thing is too heavy. You really need a book rest to read it for long.

Also good for deadlifting and squats!

 

[chrispillertkd]

TKD started out as 100% japanese karate, and nothing more.

You just wrote two Kwans out of history.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

not really.

 

[chrispillertkd]

not really.

You've said several times that Taekwon-Do was just Shotokan in the beginning. (You also seem to think that any development of the style isn't Taekwon-Do, at least you've said as much in the past, IIRC.) But the fact is that there were at least two Kwans that were influenced by Chinese arts and they were part of the unification movement to form Taekwon-Do. QED, your statement isn't accurate.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

no he isnt, he is 100% corrrect, this was all hammered out 100's of times over the years, with fanboys like you getting wupped everytime.

TKD started out as 100% japanese karate, and nothing more.

So the kwans founded by men who had studied Chinese arts and Judo in addition to Karate don't count?

While the roots of TKD are primarily in the Karate yard, there are at least a few planted firmly in other places. Like China.

 

[clfsean]

Since a couple of you have mentioned it... could I see some of the CMA influence in TKD? Seriously. I don't see any there, especially now. But even in some of the separate kwan videos (MDK I think) that's supposed to have a CMA influence. I'm just not seeing it there.

Thanks!!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Since a couple of you have mentioned it... could I see some of the CMA influence in TKD? Seriously. I don't see any there, especially now. But even in some of the separate kwan videos (MDK I think) that's supposed to have a CMA influence. I'm just not seeing it there.

Thanks!!

You won't see it now, after 50 years of evolution. And the CMA influence was never a very large factor. Neither was the judo influence.

But it's undeniable that some of the kwan founders trained in those arts, and therefore it would be foolish to deny that they had at least some impact on the earliest days of TKD, even if the art has since moved in completely different directions.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Since a couple of you have mentioned it... could I see some of the CMA influence in TKD? Seriously. I don't see any there, especially now. But even in some of the separate kwan videos (MDK I think) that's supposed to have a CMA influence. I'm just not seeing it there.

Thanks!!

In both Chunkwon and Hansoo (black belt poomse in KKW Taekwondo) there are techniques that are obviously borrowed from CMA. In fact, I learned those techniques when I was in Northern Praying Mantis (which makes sense since both Yoon, Byung-In and Hwang, Kee studied CMA in northern China). Please note, however, that this conversation deals primarily with the "roots" of Taekwon-Do and over the years techniques have been adapted and changed. Also, with the KKW's attempt to standardize all the Kwans differences between them have been lessened over the years.

I will revise my previous statement about two Kwans having a CMA influence, however. It was actually three. The Moo Duk Kwan from Hwang, Kee and both the Chang Moo Kwan and the Kang Duk Won from Yoon, Byung-In. I believe some of the older Chang Moo Kwan and perhaps some Kang Duk Won schools taught forms that were specifically learned and passed on by Yoon, Byung-In which he had learned in his CMA training (though they are not part of the KKW curriculum).

That all being said, the influence of CMA on the Moo Duk Kwan is much more apparent when you examine the Tang Soo Do line of that lineage as opposed to the Taekwon-Do line.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Rumy73]

In both Chunkwon and Hansoo (black belt poomse in KKW Taekwondo) there are techniques that are obviously borrowed from CMA. In fact, I learned those techniques when I was in Northern Praying Mantis (which makes sense since both Yoon, Byung-In and Hwang, Kee studied CMA in northern China). Please note, however, that this conversation deals primarily with the "roots" of Taekwon-Do and over the years techniques have been adapted and changed. Also, with the KKW's attempt to standardize all the Kwans differences between them have been lessened over the years.

I will revise my previous statement about two Kwans having a CMA influence, however. It was actually three. The Moo Duk Kwan from Hwang, Kee and both the Chang Moo Kwan and the Kang Duk Won from Yoon, Byung-In. I believe some of the older Chang Moo Kwan and perhaps some Kang Duk Won schools taught forms that were specifically learned and passed on by Yoon, Byung-In which he had learned in his CMA training (though they are not part of the KKW curriculum).

That all being said, the influence of CMA on the Moo Duk Kwan is much more apparent when you examine the Tang Soo Do line of that lineage as opposed to the Taekwon-Do line.

Pax,

Chris

Very interesting.

 

[clfsean]

In both Chunkwon and Hansoo (black belt poomse in KKW Taekwondo) there are techniques that are obviously borrowed from CMA. In fact, I learned those techniques when I was in Northern Praying Mantis (which makes sense since both Yoon, Byung-In and Hwang, Kee studied CMA in northern China).

Cool... I'll youtube them.

I know back when I was in TKD, it was the numbered pyungahns (pinans), then the named kata from the Shorin based JMA/OMAs.

 

[arnisador]

You've said several times that Taekwon-Do was just Shotokan in the beginning. (You also seem to think that any development of the style isn't Taekwon-Do, at least you've said as much in the past, IIRC.) But the fact is that there were at least two Kwans that were influenced by Chinese arts and they were part of the unification movement to form Taekwon-Do.

Most of what became TKD (vice TSD) were 100% Karate, but not all were--though they were still mostly Karate. The statement is largely accurate.