Preception of True TKD

[terryl965]

I would love to hear everyone opinion about traditional TKD before the Kukkiwon and before the sport aspect came into play. How much was really influenced by Okinawa Karate and how much was influenced by Japanese Karate.

Master Southwick brought up some great points about the Poomsae having Japanese Patterns to them and even using Japanese wording for the patterns themself.

What do all you feel about this and does it show a lack of respect towards the Okinawa and Japanese roots from the Koreans towards there initial training.

Just thought I would see what everyone has to say.

 

[Kacey]

I would love to hear everyone opinion about traditional TKD before the Kukkiwon and before the sport aspect came into play. How much was really influenced by Okinawa Karate and how much was influenced by Japanese Karate.

Well, I know for a fact that Ch'ang H'on (Blue Cottage, Chon-ji pattern set, ITF, whatever you want to call it) TKD was heavily influenced by Shotokan. Gen. Choi had a black belt in Shotokan prior to creating the Ch'ang H'on patterns, and, in fact, when the first edition of the TKD Encyclopedia was published in 1965, it had 20 Ch'ang H'on patterns (there are 25 now, although most practitioners only use 24; one was dropped and replaced, but we still do all of them, for historical accuracy), and a large selection of Shotokan patterns (I'd have to look to see how many) were included in the volume.

For his VI Dan test, my sahbum learned the first Shotokan pattern, and performed it side-by-side with another student who did the second Ch'ang H'on pattern (Dan-Gun); seeing them side-by-side made it obvious how closely related the patterns really are.

From what I've seen, many of the movements are the same as well - it is the technical details that vary. In general, at least from what I've seen, Shotokan movements tend to be larger and the stances tend to be lower and longer; everything appears, to me, to be exaggerated, although I realize that's just because my training has been in similar, but smaller/less expansive movements.

Master Southwick brought up some great points about the Poomsae having Japanese Patterns to them and even using Japanese wording for the patterns themself.

What do all you feel about this and does it show a lack of respect towards the Okinawa and Japanese roots from the Koreans towards there initial training.

Just thought I would see what everyone has to say.

I think that not acknowledging the historical influences and sources for any art is disrespectful - which is not the same and learning the differences and acknowledging any changes (good or bad) which may have been made. Like languages, martial arts are (or should be) alive - that is, they evolve through their practitioners, as people grow in their understanding of the art(s) they practice. Knowing where an art started is the key to understanding those changes, and therefore the art itself, and is, I think, a key factor - and one I'm still working on; graduate school hasn't left me nearly as much time for research as I'd like.

 

[zDom]

In general, at least from what I've seen, Shotokan movements tend to be larger and the stances tend to be lower and longer; everything appears, to me, to be exaggerated, although I realize that's just because my training has been in similar, but smaller/less expansive movements.

Hmmm.. I would love to see video.

MSK TKD is known for training with low, long stances and using large motions.

I wonder if we are as low/long/large as Shotokan, similar to Kacey's, or somewhere in between.

 

[Kacey]

Hmmm.. I would love to see video.

I don't think there is a video, sorry... of course, I was testing for III Dan at the same time; anything that occurred off the floor is a blur!

MSK TKD is known for training with low, long stances and using large motions.

I wonder if we are as low/long/large as Shotokan, similar to Kacey's, or somewhere in between.

I couldn't say without seeing one, or getting a good description of a stance. Here's a couple of ours, for comparison: walking (front) stance is one shoulder width wide, measured from instep to instep, and 1 1/2 shoulder widths long, measured from big toe to big toe, with the front knee bent so that it is directly over the ankle. Low stance, by contrast, is the same width, and is 1 1/2 shoulder widths long, but is measured from the heel of the front foot to the big toe of the rear foot, making it one foot-length longer - and many of the Shotokan practitioners I've seen use a walking/front stance very similar to our low stance.

 

[Iron Leopard]

If you're looking for perception outside of the TKD circle. For myself and many that I train with TKD is seen as distancing itself from it's japanese, chinese or okinawin roots. pardon the mispelling there! That may not be the truth, as it's only a perception.

Another perception is that it isn't self defense oriented. This perception has been furthered by the offerings of "seperate arts" classes such as Krav Maga in the TKD studios.

Not putting down TKD, that's just a general perception in my circle of martial arts friends and associates.

 

[terryl965]

If you're looking for perception outside of the TKD circle. For myself and many that I train with TKD is seen as distancing itself from it's japanese, chinese or okinawin roots. pardon the mispelling there! That may not be the truth, as it's only a perception.

Another perception is that it isn't self defense oriented. This perception has been furthered by the offerings of "seperate arts" classes such as Krav Maga in the TKD studios.

Not putting down TKD, that's just a general perception in my circle of martial arts friends and associates.

I understand the sport side not being precieved about Self Defense but traditional TKD is loaded with it, with that being said what do you believe to be the strongest asset of TKD.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

The lack of recognition is almost certainly due to the fact that the Japanese werent highly popular, having just been kicked out of Korea. Taekwondo and Tae Kyon demonstrations were staged by Master Son Duk Ki and others to emphasise the differences at that time.

General Choi had a Karate BB and the Chung Do Kwan founder, Won Kuk Lee, trained under Funakoshi Gichin, founder of the Shotokan. That said, and whilst I agree Karate must have had some influence, due to General Choi and Won Kuk Lee (and one must assume others too), I believe the larger part of Taekwondo to be from older Korean styles (Tae Kyon, To-San etc). Both Choi and Lee both learned Tae Kyon as children.

 

[zDom]

Hmmm.

We used both "high" stances and "low" stances in MSK.

Walking stances may have been even HIGHER than yours: just a like a completely natural walking step.

Front stances, on the other hand, are about two shoulder lengths in length (still about shoulder-width wide).

Same front leg: directly over foot.

So, not as deep as, oh, some kung fu type stances, for example, or some of the karate circuit deep stances, but definately lower than the WTF stances I've been seeing lately.

"High stances for mobility and deep stances for stability" is how it was presented to us.

IMO, changing things from Japanese styles just for the sake of being different is unwise.

I'll never change my TKD simply because some Koreans are having a hard time dealing with their history.

I like what the Koreans had done with the Japanese arts in the '40s-'60s: I think they really came up with something great.

But the recent changes just don't make sense to me, aesthetically or on a practical level.

 

[Xue Sheng]

IWhat do all you feel about this and does it show a lack of respect towards the Okinawa and Japanese roots from the Koreans towards there initial training.

I no longer train TKD and haven't in years but I did train TKD, in Worcester and Boston Mass, prior to it becoming an Olympic sport. I never studied Okinawa Karate or Japanese Karate so I am not sure how much of TKD was influenced by them.

I will say what I do see in many sports schools to day is an emphasis on point scoring instead of actual self-defense. When I trained TKD we had low kicks, medium kicks. High kicks as well as close in fighting and some takedowns. I have seen none of this is any TKD school I have been to since it became a sport. The best TKD School I have seen since is also a HKD school and they still did not train close fighting and take downs in TKD.

It is likely I don't understand the question but as for showing lack of respect; do Japanese martial arts school show respect to Chinese Martial arts schools, does Yiquan show respect to Xingyiquan, does Hebei Xingyi show respect to Shanxi Xingyi, does Sun style Tai Chi show respect to Chen style Tai Chi, bagua and Xingyi. Does Aikido show respect to Aikijitsu, does Judo show respect to Jujitsu, does Chinese, Kenpo or American Kenpo show respect to Shaolin, do many CMA styles show respect to Shaolin, Wudang or Emei?

Many martial arts came from or were influenced by other martial arts and have similar forms and form names, so I guess I do not know what type of respect they are suppose to show?

 

[Iron Leopard]

TKD strongest in? Well I would have to say kicks and that's what I've seen when sparring against TKD guys.

I think, if there really are valid self defense principles in TKD, then that is what needs to be projected and less of the sport aspect.

 

[rmclain]

I would love to hear everyone opinion about traditional TKD before the Kukkiwon and before the sport aspect came into play. How much was really influenced by Okinawa Karate and how much was influenced by Japanese Karate.

Master Southwick brought up some great points about the Poomsae having Japanese Patterns to them and even using Japanese wording for the patterns themself.

What do all you feel about this and does it show a lack of respect towards the Okinawa and Japanese roots from the Koreans towards there initial training.

Just thought I would see what everyone has to say.

It is really old news that the pre-Taekwondo type schools were teaching karate through Japan from Okinawa. After WWII ended and South Korea was free to rebuild, some of the only sources of martial arts knowledge were from Koreans that had studied karate in Japan from the first generation of instructors from Okinawa, such as Funakoshi Gichin or Toyama Kanken.

R. McLain

 

[matt.m]

Just to throw .02 in.....Since GM requires ITF and WTF per gup test and I am sure dan ranks I have noticed that with the ITF side the stances are "Deeper" than the WTF stances so far. I talked with GM about Shotokans value in TKD in and during TKD's inception and he said that pre kkw etc. that from his knowledge that all the the major players in the formation of tkd had dan ranking in shotokan.

From what I have learned the WTF poomse have narrower stances when compared to their ITF counterparts.

From what I preceive TKD to be is also two seperate animals....You have the traditional art and you have the olympic competitive sport. I wholeheartedly believe that true tkd uses poomse to reinforce basic moves, combinations, self defense techniques, all done with grace and properly channeled energy for maximum effective power.

 

[allpet]

I talked with GM about Shotokans value in TKD in and during TKD's inception and he said that pre kkw etc. that from his knowledge that all the the major players in the formation of tkd had dan ranking in shotokan.

And that was why they found together so easily. Have you ever heard of any other system being brought together like this? It's almost always going the other way. But having the same background made it possible.

One of the GM's should have had 6th dan in Shotokan. Can't find the reference right now though.

 

[DArnold]

Master Southwick brought up some great points about the Poomsae having Japanese Patterns to them and even using Japanese wording for the patterns themself.

What do all you feel about this and does it show a lack of respect towards the Okinawa and Japanese roots from the Koreans towards there initial training.

Just thought I would see what everyone has to say.

Well of course much of the patterns and wording are the same. All you need to do is study the Korean history. The cultural genocide brought on the Koreans by Japan and China.

If you spoke Korean, read Korean, taught Korean then you were executed.
If you were middle class you were executed.
Everything in Korea had to be Japanese by law.
Why do you think most of the prominant Korean figures went to Japan to study???
If you varied from this you were executed.

Exactly like the quote from the movie "Braveheart".

The problem with Korea is that it is full of Koreans.
If we can't get them out... we'll breed them out.

Thus why most of the important figures in Korea are concerned with the "Education movement" Without the education movement nothing of Korean culture would have survived, and they did this under the threat of death.

I wonder why Cambodians don't respect Pol Pot.
I wonder why Jews don't respect Hitler...

I wouldn't expect any Korean to emulate the Japanese - thus the total denial and break!

Also TKD has evolved. Similarities - Yes, the same - NO
but to that end there are similarities in most all styles.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Similarities - Yes, the same - NO but to that end there are similarities in most all styles.

Agreed. Very good post by the way.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

And that was why they found together so easily. Have you ever heard of any other system being brought together like this? It's almost always going the other way. But having the same background made it possible.

One of the GM's should have had 6th dan in Shotokan. Can't find the reference right now though.

I dont believe Kim Bok Man trained in Shotokan. All the biographies of him mention only older Korean styles.

 

[exile]

This topic is one of my favorite (or at least more obsessive) hobbyhorses, and there are some great points in the previous posts. My own TKD style, Song Moo Kwan, was founded by Ryo Pyung Chik, who like Lee Won Kuk, the Chung Do Kwan's founder, reached dan ranking in Shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi, and Yoon Pyung In, who founded the Chang Moo Kwan, reached fifth dan in Shudokan karate under Kanken Toyama. The original hyungs of the Moo Duk Kwan were explicitly identified by Hwang Kee as deriving from Anko Itosu. There are large chunks of the Palgwes that come straight out of the Pinyan/Heian katas (the opening sequences of Palgwe Oh-Jang are move-for-move identical to the first three moves of Pinyan Shodan). There is thus a huge amount of technical content which we can positively identify as Okinawan/Japanese in origin.

On the other hand, FieldDiscipline's suggestion that `the larger part of Taekwondo [is] from older Korean styles (Tae Kyon, To-San etc). Both Choi and Lee both learned Tae Kyon as children' has to be viewed with some skepticism, I think. The fact is that we don't actually know what the technical content of the `tae kyon' that these masters learned actually was; in fact we don't know how old this elusive `tae kyon' actually is, because there's no way to link the name to any well-documented martial art from an earlier time. The documentation just isn't there. There is a pan-Siberian/northern Asian tradition of leg-wrestling and kicking games/contests, and some writers have suggested that `tae kyon' is actually the Korean manifestation of this practice, rather than being a structured fighting art. I'd say the (heavy) burden of proof is on those who think that TKD was significantly (or even mildly) influenced by tae-kyon, let along the essentially legendary hwarang-do or whatever. Last Fearner and I have debated this point before and I'm pretty sure he disagrees with me, but I think the jury has to be regarded as still out on the role of indigenous Korean fighting systems, whereas the huge contribution of Okinawan-derived combat arts is indisputable). And if you want evidence of Gen. Choi's view of the `true' content of TKD, just look at the content of the Chang Hon suls he created, bearing in mind that he repeatedly emphasized the core role of these forms for learning TKD: if you take just about any hyung at random, you'll find that almost all of the striking techniques are hand/arm moves, with kicks a very conspicuous minority—yet tae kyon was supposed be a largely kicking art! So it seems to me that the General's own living testament to the foundations of the art recognizes the central role of the upper-body strikes that Funakoshi emphasized in his repackaging of Itosu's earlier repackaging of the well-mixed fighting systems used in 19th c. Okinawa.

I think that not acknowledging the historical influences and sources for any art is disrespectful - which is not the same and learning the differences and acknowledging any changes (good or bad) which may have been made. Like languages, martial arts are (or should be) alive - that is, they evolve through their practitioners, as people grow in their understanding of the art(s) they practice. Knowing where an art started is the key to understanding those changes, and therefore the art itself, and is, I think, a key factor

Agreed 100%, Kacey. In the case of TKD, the reluctance to acknowledge the Japanese influence is clearly based on hatred for the Japanese occupation (and, I suspect for many Koreans, the occupiers themselves). Stuart Anslow in his new book points out that Choi's earliest work emphatically cites the role of Japanese karate in the formatin of TKD; he then cites three or four publications at successively later dates showing in each case a further retreat from this position, with Choi's last statements on the topic emphatically denying any connection with Shotokan or other Okinawan-based fighting arts. The smooth progression from emphatic acknowledgement to brusque denial is quite striking and makes it pretty clear that there was some kind of momentum building up continuously from the late 1950s on against the idea that TKD had historical origins in Japanese MA. I've sometimes wondered if the intensity of the Korean War, and the patriotic fervor it triggered, contributed in some way to this hardening of attitude towards TKD's Japanese past...

I understand the sport side not being precieved about Self Defense but traditional TKD is loaded with it, with that being said what do you believe to be the strongest asset of TKD.

I believe you're absolutely right about the content of tranditional TKD, Terry—the modern realistic bunkai/boon hae movement makes clear the harsh street-effectiveness of the fighting principles and tactics embodied in the hyungs, if we learn to read them correctly—and I think that straightforward, powerful approach to self-defense is the thing that gives TKD its great strength as a MA. The Korean armed forces who've used TKD to defense themselves in two major wars—effectively enough to make their enemies openly fear their use of their H2H fighting skills—would probably agree on that one.

I like what the Koreans had done with the Japanese arts in the '40s-'60s: I think they really came up with something great.

But the recent changes just don't make sense to me, aesthetically or on a practical level.

Again, complete agreement, zD. I think Olympic style sparring can be useful training things like balance and accuracy; but the point-scoring system reward moves which I find byzantine in their complexity, relative to what you need to do in a violent encounter on unfriendly ground.

From what I preceive TKD to be is also two seperate animals....You have the traditional art and you have the olympic competitive sport. I wholeheartedly believe that true tkd uses poomse to reinforce basic moves, combinations, self defense techniques, all done with grace and properly channeled energy for maximum effective power.

Exactly right, and the only thing further that I'd add is that to take advantage of the techniques Matt refers to, it's probably necessary to do serious combative sparring, along the reality-based lines that Iain Abernethy outlines in the final chapter of his book Bunkai-Jutsu, and which he now has a terrific DVD out on. We need a new word, maybe—what IA is talking about here is nothing like the ordinary kumite or Olympic-style tap-exchanges that so much MA tournament sparring consists of. It's as close as you can get to an all-out street fight as possible without getting the participants injured, but it covers the gamut of issues—from adrenal shock to on-the-fly adjustments in tactics during the chaos of a real punch-up—that come into play when you start imagining just how you would use your MA abilities if the worst came to worst. I think that kind of training is going to become more and more a feature of TKD training (and, from what I've read, used to be the case, in advanced training in Korea during the kwan-era).

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Exile, that is a superb post. I enjoyed reading that.

 

[exile]

Exile, that is a superb post. I enjoyed reading that.

Thanks, FD, very much—I appreciate the feedback—and I hope it's clear from what I said that I wasn't dismissing your comments on tae kyon out of hand; I actually went on a quest to try to dig up some info on tae kyon at one point, but had to rely on secondary sources a lot—MA historians who, unlike me, can actually read Korean!—and what I picked up over and over again was this frustration on their part at the `trickling out' of any leads about what tae kyon might really have consisted of, and when, and what its connections to earlier Korean MAs must be. It might well have played a bigger role than what my comments may suggest; the problem is the lack of hard evidence on the point, which we may just have to live with...

...a big problem is that so much of Asian MAs is so loaded with political freight. The complex history of Chinese and Japanese involvement in Korean history, and the sometimes bafflingly complex history of the early Korean kingdoms and the networks of internal and external alliances that they created and altered, means that a lot of martial activities took on national or political symbolism making it hard to separate changes in content from changes in labelling. Nothing about the history of Korean MAs is easy, it seems...

... what I'd really love to see—love to see—is a detailed history of kwan-era martial arts in Korea, before the sport-orientation, the rift between TSD and TKD (which actually split one of the original kwans down the middle, so that there's both Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwan Do, go figure) and all sorts of other stuff happened that badly blurs the picture which Terry's original post on this thread is trying to get a handle on, I think. But again, the problem is documentation—so many of those original kwan founders have died, and so much documentation was destroyed during the Japanese occupation... I really wonder if we'll ever be able to get a picture of what the different kwans in the early 1950s were actually doing. Even that recently, it's hard to get hold of enough of a paper trail, it looks like...

Anyway, thanks again for your kind words, FD!

 

[Andrew Green]

I think "true" TKD is a myth. As is "true" karate, or "true" Jujitsu or any other system.

They are what you make them, and all cover a range. More often then not the people that claim "True ____" are simply trying to put themselves above everyone else and bipass the critizism of there system by saying it only applys to everyone else.

What is "true" football? American Football? Canadian? Rugby? Soccer? Any of the countless other variations that existed but didn't get standardized from the same time period or before?