Back to the kick, I've seen this kind of move done in dance as well so I'm rarely surprised to see moves across styles anymore.
TKD guy???
- Thread starter ATC
- Start date
Well, the MMA people didn't bring the subject up, the OP is about a kick I've seen in karate before, before I got old I even did it, but someone wants the kick to be TKD instead of karate. then TKD people were saying that MMA ignores TKD which it doesn't so it seems the TKD are bothered what MMA thinks about it. Personally I'd, if I were doing TKD still, worry about this posted by a TKDist in the TKD section. MMA thinks well of TKD, when it's done well.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?101372
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Tez, my comments were in regards to the ufc and not mma in general.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
And you are still wrong. Just more specifically incorrect.
Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.
Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.
Minor logical contradiction: Thats the point being poked at. MMA People didnt bring it up.
Do I have to be a Police Officer to complain about something a Police Officer does?
Thats a random example, mind.
And I for one am not complaining about who endorses what MA in MMA Competition.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
You are entitled to your opinion. I however, have lost count at the number of ufc fighters with tkd backgrounds who come out to fight and are credited as "muay thai/kickboxing/bjj" fighters. Im not the only person to notice this, it was brought to my attention by a guy I train with. I love mma, and have many mates who train mma. UFC, however is just tacky to me, but I can accept that others get into it. You only need to talk to a "ufc fan boy" for five minutes to hear all the negativity aimed at tkd. We here on the tkd board have disagreements regarding organisations, competition rules etc. Effectiveness of true tkd as a method for "fighting" is rarely debated. I think all the tkdists here aknowledge that tkd as a martial art is very effective, thats not really up for debate.
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If a thread starts getting off topic, it really doesn't help when others dogpile on and help it go further off topic.
Folks - let's get back to the original topic and drop the art-vs-art argument, mkay?
Folks - let's get back to the original topic and drop the art-vs-art argument, mkay?
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I obviously misunderstood the original post. I took it as a fighter doing a tkd move but it not being credited as such (a tkd move being credited as a sports karate move). So obviously I thought discussing how fighters/moves are regularly not credited with the relevent art was on topic. Sorry, my bad. Back on topic......
I think the truth is that our martial arts are closer than perhaps we want to think. I know that Wado Ryu karate has a large arsenal of kicks including the one shown in the OP. I suppose we all want to think our style is unique but I think that each is actually quite similiar in most respects. I'm not suggesting any style has 'pinched' off another more than the human body only goes so many ways so that techniques are going to be similiar.
I've seen the kick through various Karate styles. Except I've never seen it done with hands by the waist. Good luck with that, fella, you're going to need it.
A side note on Joe Rogan - at the weigh in, when the UFC was in Boston last year, Joe Rogan jumped up and yelled "Hey, everybody!" He then ran over to my buddy, who's a commissioner on the state athletic commission (which oversees MMA in the state) and introduced him to the crowd as his first instructor in Martial Arts. Credited him as "the guy who started it all for me." (My buddy has run the same, very successful, Kenpo school for 40 years.) Joe Rogan was sincere and and quite excited about seeing him.
Funny thing about it, my buddy didn't really remember him. He went home that night and checked over his books, and yep, found that Joe had trained with him for a couple years back when he was a little kid, almost forty years ago.
I thought it a class thing to do on Rogan's part.
As for not crediting former styles, I think it's human nature when someone starts a new style and stays in it for years to forget about any previous experience. I ain't saying it's right, just human nature.
A side note on Joe Rogan - at the weigh in, when the UFC was in Boston last year, Joe Rogan jumped up and yelled "Hey, everybody!" He then ran over to my buddy, who's a commissioner on the state athletic commission (which oversees MMA in the state) and introduced him to the crowd as his first instructor in Martial Arts. Credited him as "the guy who started it all for me." (My buddy has run the same, very successful, Kenpo school for 40 years.) Joe Rogan was sincere and and quite excited about seeing him.
Funny thing about it, my buddy didn't really remember him. He went home that night and checked over his books, and yep, found that Joe had trained with him for a couple years back when he was a little kid, almost forty years ago.
I thought it a class thing to do on Rogan's part.
As for not crediting former styles, I think it's human nature when someone starts a new style and stays in it for years to forget about any previous experience. I ain't saying it's right, just human nature.
I imagine his coach was all over him for that! It really wasn't good, I think it's hubris with him, he's been at the top of the kick boxing tree for a while and in his first MMA fight against another first timer who really wasn't that good he thought showboating was the way to go, he'll learn quickly I think, after he's been KO'd!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think you missed Tez's point a little. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But if you say, "Cops don't like me and it's wrong. They should like me." And then a few posts later say, "Why should I care what cops think about me?" There's an inherent conflict there. You're playing both sides.
And the subsequent point I made is that a TKDist will care what MMA thinks if he or she chooses to be involved in the sport of MMA. That only makes sense. You either choose to be a part of it or you don't.
Regarding the OP, no one's mentioned this yet, or maybe I missed it, but was anyone else really bothered by the arrogance of the guy who executed the kick? The hands down, clowning around he did took his opponent out of his gameplan and obviously confused him, but man, it did nothing for me as a fan. I'd never voluntarily watch that guy in another fight, and as an athlete in a spectator sport, that's not a good thing.
You misunderstand - Tez said
"Well, the MMA people didn't bring the subject up, the OP is about a kick I've seen in karate before, before I got old I even did it, but someone wants the kick to be TKD instead of karate."
Thats mainly what Im looking at. The fact They dont bring it up is part of the point. And I cant be playing both sides if Im not on a side. I dont care if TKD is acknowledged in MMA Competition. I like watching MMA Competitions, but I tend to just ignore what styles are being used. Im just interested in the Bout. Im merely responding to what is being presented to Me. And in saying "MMA People didnt bring the Subject Up" and " then TKD people were saying that MMA ignores TKD " Is back to My Example. " which it doesn't so it seems the TKD are bothered what MMA thinks about it. " And thats what Im mainly looking at. It implies TKD Stylists are bothered by it, which may be true. But the thing is, MMA Practitioners not exactly remarking on it *is the point*. My example was saying, that if noone else is going to say it, why wouldnt TKD Stylists? It doesnt mean they have a problem with it, its just acknowledging whats presented to them. Plus, I can find a denizen links to different forums downtalking TKD from an MMA Perspective, if it helps. I for one dont care, but Im not going to ignore that and say nothing, for fear I might be generalised into "TKD People talk about it so TKD People have a problem with it".
"ersonally I'd, if I were doing TKD still, worry about this posted by a TKDist in the TKD section."
This is why I replied but, to say anything at all. The OP reads: "Ive seen this Kick in TKD, but this guy isnt credited fo..." No, wait, thats Me talking nonsense. ATC ACTUALLY said: "The KO kick is one known in TKD. He states he has been in sport karate and kick boxing but maybe that Karate dojo was a TKD dojang. Never seen Karate use what we call a turn (spinning) roundhouse." Hes just asking if that gents a TKD Stylist. Nothing more. Read the Thread Title. ""TKD guy???"
Im responding to how the Thread has been a bit derailed into a debate about MMA Acknowledging TKD, when the Thread was just asking about that Fighter in that Fight using that Kick. And the guys hands down doesnt equate to much, in that WTF Stylists tend to keep their arms tight in. Last I checked, anyway. In short: Re-Read the OP and the Thread Name (Not You specifically Steve
- ), and as regards to MMA Acknowledging TKD, some people do and some dont. Weve established that with the mixed replies. Lastly, if I were watching MMA Bouts and I saw this, Id refrain from watching another Bout by that guy. It wasnt interesting to watch.Plus, ATC now knows that that Kick IS in Karate, answering His other Question
dancingalone
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Plus, ATC now knows that that Kick IS in Karate, answering His other Question
When is something considered to be "in" a system? Merely because a particular practitioner knows the technique? I don't think so.
I know I've remarked on this in the past in a conversation with Tez, but the Wado-ryu as taught in the southeastern part of the US really doesn't have all the aerial kicks on display in some forms of TKD. This should not be surprising considering the roots of Wado being grounded in jujutsu and early Shotokan karate - Wado people have ample things to practice and a tornado roundhouse kick like in the video would probably be in conflict with the core of the system. That doesn't mean individuals can't learn and practice them for fun or for tournament use, but I'm not sure I would say it is 'in' karate.
When its in the list of things that Organisation generally teaches their students.
I dont care much for Historical Roots. Its needless complication.
WTF TKD Emphasizes Round and Roundhouse Kicks.
In the first ever concept of Taekwondo, were there Round and Roundhouse Kicks?
My View: Does it even matter?
Whats being taught in Your Organisation/System/Subsystem/Whatever is "In" its System.
Like if a Dojang that teaches TKD and Hapkido calls itself... John Does Gym. Those things are thusly in His System.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Fair enough, guys.
So, I want to put something out there that I hope we can all agree on. That kick is NOT Brazilian jiu jitsu and has never be "in" the BJJ system.
So, I want to put something out there that I hope we can all agree on. That kick is NOT Brazilian jiu jitsu and has never be "in" the BJJ system.
dancingalone
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Then this kick is NOT in Wado-ryu. Not as taught by the United States Eastern Wado-Ryu Karate Federation anyway.
Alrighty - Wado Ryu doesnt have it.
Ive learnt something I had no opinion on
I can surely find some Karate Systems which most certainly do, since Wado Ryu is not representative of every form of Karate, much like how the KKW WTF is not representative of all TKD.
dancingalone
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Alrighty - Wado Ryu doesnt have it.
Ive learnt something I had no opinion on
I like trivia.
It would be one of the newer groups/styles no doubt if such a kick is actually expressed as a formal requirement. Definitely not in Goju-ryu, not in Uechi-Ryu, not in Isshin-ryu, not in Matsubayashi-ryu, not in Seibukan, not in Kobayashi, not in Itosu-kai, not in Shukokai, not in JKS Shotokan, not in JKA Shotokan, not in Shotokai... Hey, I'm seeing a trend.
It is taught by my Wado instructors who had a direct line from Ohtsuka Sensei, their instructor was taught by him. However it is a kick that instructors need to be able to do to teach if they can't I imagine it's not taught.
Steve I di mention Micheals's show boating etc, perhaps I'll suggest we match him on one of our shows but with someone with very good all round skills. His coaches are honest so wouldn't turn down a match just because he might get beaten, I imagine though knowing them they will have already beaten him themselves. London shoot is not a place for arrogance.
