Korean Karate?

[Kong Soo Do]

Manny has a thread going right now which started to drift over to the use of 'Karate' for Korean arts, specifically TKD. I wanted to touch on this further without derailing his thread. What's your view on the use of the word 'Karate' to describe a Korean art. I've seen Taekwondo Karate, Tang Soo Do Karate and even Hapkido Karate before. And many of the TKD & TSD schools in our area have a big light up 'Karate' sign over the school.

Now originally I understand that this was a commercial decision since 'Karate' was much better known as opposed to TKD, TSD & HKD. But nowadays, that really doesn't or shouldn't apply should it? This isn't the early 60's where no one has heard of TKD, TSD & HKD. Should it still be used?

I recently was doing a search on something or other and came across Kim Soo Karate. Thought it was interesting and I don't particularly have a problem with it. The term 'Soo' is some ways replaces the term 'Ryu', at least as an identification of the type of Karate...or Korean Karate that is being advertised. Is that acceptable? How about Tae Soo Karate or any other variation of a Korean identifier with the JMA/OMA term of Karate?

Your thoughts and views...

 

[Manny]

When I got inside TKD I did not know what was that, the fellow student (a girl) who took me to the dojang tell me it was korean karate (Jido Kwan TaeKwodo). Even these days my former dojang has the same sing that used back in the 80's it says Tae Kwon Do JiDo Kwan- Korean Karate.

My former master was a karateka that in the early 70's turned to TKD, Sambonim Ramon Alvite came to my city from Mexico City in 1978-79 and he is considered the introductor of Taekwondo in my state.

Another funny thing what about Kenpo Karate or American Kenpo Karate (Ed Parker) they adverised that way and it's not japanese karate per se too.

Manny

 

[Manny]

BTW my actual sambonim does not adverise his dojang as Karate Koreano (Korean Karate) his sing says: Hwarang Taekwondo Arte Marcial Coreano ( Hwarang Taekwondo Korean Martial Art).

Maybe I am fooling myself, but I am square and like to train and use the Old Way, the New TKD era does not atract me so much, you know all the new gadgets, new uniforms, new WTF competition rules, new way to do sparring, etc,etc.

Manny

 

[elder999]

When I started out in karate, it was Duk Sung Son's version of CHung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. If you look at the history, and examine the fomrs used, it was basically a Korean version of Shotokan:Korean karate.

 

[dancingalone]

Ma
I recently was doing a search on something or other and came across Kim Soo Karate. Thought it was interesting and I don't particularly have a problem with it. The term 'Soo' is some ways replaces the term 'Ryu', at least as an identification of the type of Karate...or Korean Karate that is being advertised. Is that acceptable? How about Tae Soo Karate or any other variation of a Korean identifier with the JMA/OMA term of Karate?

Kim Soo karate actually refers to the head of the organization. The gentleman's name is Kim Pyung Soo - he developed a teaching methodology combining elements of karate, taekwondo, kwon bup, and hapkido called "Chayon-ryu". You can search on Chayon-ryu here and on the net. It's been discussed a few times below and one of GM Kim's direct students posts here from time to time. The Chayon-ryu system has ties to Shudokan karate and kwon bup through GM Yoon Byung In and GM Kim also had high rank with the KKW.

 

[dortiz]

I just had a Coke with lunch...er wait it was an RC Cola.


p.s. I have that book too.

 

[hungryninja]

I think in modern times, "Karate" should not be used to describe a Korean art (unless those schools are specifically teaching karate). People still use it as a marketing term, but I think most people know what taekwondo is now. (e.g. ATA uses the term "Karate for Kids" to describe their junior program...probably because it's a "catchy" name).

Manny has a thread going right now which started to drift over to the use of 'Karate' for Korean arts, specifically TKD. I wanted to touch on this further without derailing his thread. What's your view on the use of the word 'Karate' to describe a Korean art. I've seen Taekwondo Karate, Tang Soo Do Karate and even Hapkido Karate before. And many of the TKD & TSD schools in our area have a big light up 'Karate' sign over the school.

Now originally I understand that this was a commercial decision since 'Karate' was much better known as opposed to TKD, TSD & HKD. But nowadays, that really doesn't or shouldn't apply should it? This isn't the early 60's where no one has heard of TKD, TSD & HKD. Should it still be used?

I recently was doing a search on something or other and came across Kim Soo Karate. Thought it was interesting and I don't particularly have a problem with it. The term 'Soo' is some ways replaces the term 'Ryu', at least as an identification of the type of Karate...or Korean Karate that is being advertised. Is that acceptable? How about Tae Soo Karate or any other variation of a Korean identifier with the JMA/OMA term of Karate?

Your thoughts and views...

 

[rlobrecht]

I attended Kim Soo Karate as a kid (80's) and our instructor described it as a mix of taekwondo, karate, and some other stuff.

The dojang I train at now has a big lighted sign that says KARATE. I think my sabumnim said the sign was already there when he moved into the space, but he left it because he felt more people would recognize the term. I've only seen two people actually turn around when we say we teach taekwondo. Most people are bringing their kids, and they don't know what they want to learn, so the difference between karate and taekwondo is irrelevant to them.

I'd have to say our sparring is more like the karate sparring that I've seen, as compared to WTF style olympic sparring.

Rick

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, its similar in most peoples eyes to Karate - And its from Korea

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well, its similar in most peoples eyes to Karate - And its from Korea

I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.

Since ive mentioned this in the thread very similar to this one;
Where i train, we Practice Kicking more than Punching since Kicking requires more skill (This is only Punching and Kicking - Everything else is practiced as well); But spar with ALOT more Punching than Kicking.

Shotokan is very similar, except for its Stances, i find.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Since ive mentioned this in the thread very similar to this one;
Where i train, we Practice Kicking more than Punching since Kicking requires more skill (This is only Punching and Kicking - Everything else is practiced as well); But spar with ALOT more Punching than Kicking.

Shotokan is very similar, except for its Stances, i find.

I agree. It takes a lot longer to learn kicks than punches and there are just so many kicks to learn, so therefore more time is spent learning kicking. In practice though, we are similar in that we incorporate a lot more punching into our sparring. When we get 'kickers' come and train at our club they have absolutely no idea what to do when an opponent comes in with a flurry of good punches, we've even had a few say "hey, hey, a little less punching mate, we should be kicking more". Im pretty sure you cant make that request when you're being attacked on the street

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree. It takes a lot longer to learn kicks than punches and there are just so many kicks to learn, so therefore more time is spent learning kicking. In practice though, we are similar in that we incorporate a lot more punching into our sparring. When we get 'kickers' come and train at our club they have absolutely no idea what to do when an opponent comes in with a flurry of good punches, we've even had a few say "hey, hey, a little less punching mate, we should be kicking more". Im pretty sure you cant make that request when you're being attacked on the street

"HEY! Stop tr..." *Crack*

 

[Tez3]

I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.

I trained Wado Ryu to 1st Kyu and moved to Tang Soo Do where I found bar a couple of extra kicks and little bits left out the TSD patterns are the same as the Wado ones and I believe the Shotokan ones too. TSD is much easier than Wado, with far less stances and strikes but those they do have are indentical.

 

[ATACX GYM]

My Hapkido and Hwarangdo GMs used the terms karate and kungfu to draw people into their schools for a time wherein they were rigorously taught the difference between karate,kungfu and Hapkido (although my Hapkido GM is also an old skool Hung Gar sifu and a Hwarangdo master) or Hwarangdo. Once the profile of their art was raised enough that it was recognizable by the American public in general,they eschewed the use of karate or kungfu and discouraged the terms in the dojangs.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I joke to my Master that my black belt essay will start with, "Taekwondo is a Korean word which means "karate" "

 

[Cyriacus]

I joke to my Master that my black belt essay will start with, "Taekwondo is a Korean word which means "karate" "

Wait, where's the Joke?
Am I missing something here?

 

[Tez3]

TKD is different to karate no doubts but it's hard to argue that TSD isn't karate when it karate with some of the difficult bits taken out!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Wait, where's the Joke?
Am I missing something here?

The joke is that everyone writes in their BB essay something like "taekwondo is a korean word which means "the art of the foot and fist" ". We generally stress that TKD is Korean, whilst karate is Japanese. In reality though, how different are they? I read a Jackie Chan book and he wrote that all the martial arts are the same in the end, other than boxing. I do see differences in techniques of course, but the kicks and punches are much more similar than different (in my somewhat uneducated opinion!).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The joke is that everyone writes in their BB essay something like "taekwondo is a korean word which means "the art of the foot and fist" ". We generally stress that TKD is Korean, whilst karate is Japanese. In reality though, how different are they? I read a Jackie Chan book and he wrote that all the martial arts are the same in the end, other than boxing. I do see differences in techniques of course, but the kicks and punches are much more similar than different (in my somewhat uneducated opinion!).

In some regards that is fairly accurate. If you put practitioners in a T-shirt and sweat pants and had someone walk into the room they were training it, would they know whether it was a Hapkido or Aikido or Aikijujutsu or Chin Na class going on? Would they know whether it was 'old school' TKD, or TSD or Shotokan or Shudokan? There may be the occassional 'tell-tale' that gives it away to one really deep into a particular art, but generally speaking it is all very similar. At least in practice if not focus.

I suppose a 'rose by any other name is still a rose'.