Tae Kwon Do a Korean art really!!

terryl965

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Today we had some other instructors over to train some and the converstation turned to why is TKD considered a Korean art when it roots is Karate? Then they even came to the point of saying TKD is nt and will never be a Korean art except for OLympic TKD because that is truely what the Korean Masters wanted all those years ago a sport to call there own. I am hoping to have some intelligent converstation over this, because even though TKD roots are from Karate I tend to think of TKD mainly being a Korean art, not just a sport....
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Out of curiosity, did you ask them why karate is an Okinawan art when its root is Chinese martial arts?

Pax,

Chris

No Chris I did not, they are seniors to me so I really just listen and try to take in what they are saying but this was like out of the blue and I started thinking about after he left.
 

Spork3245

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The first "Martial-Art" was developed the first time someone punched someone else. That being said, I think all modern martial-arts are actually based off "windmilling".
Seriously though, I don't understand the argument he's using. All MA's are based off of something else, that's why there's so many similarities through-out systems. Yes, the two brothers who developed Tang Soo Do & Tae Kwan Do may have been versed in a form of Karate initially, but they then "refined"/developed it into something else entirely, making it a new system, born in Korea. This would be like saying all Martial-Arts are either Greek or Indonesian because Pankration and Silat are argued to be the "first" Martial-Arts.
 

puunui

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Yes, the two brothers who developed Tang Soo Do & Tae Kwan Do may have been versed in a form of Karate initially, but they then "refined"/developed it into something else entirely, making it a new system, born in Korea.


Who are the two brothers who developed Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo?
 

dancingalone

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It's tough to pin a nationalistic label on karate. It really depends on the style.

Uechi-ryu/Pan Gai Noon: probably as close as it gets to Chinese gong fu while still wearing dogi. I would call it Chinese/Okinawan. The Okinawan factor comes in because Uechi, Kanbun created a big chunk of the Uechi-ryu kata himself, based of course on what he learned in China.

Okinawan Goju-ryu: It comes from a lot of the same roots as Uechi-ryu, but has been noticeably altered to become harder than likely what Miyagi and Higashionna studied in China. I would classify Okinawan Goju-ryu as (duh) Okinawan.

Shorin-ryu: Clearly Okinawan instead of Chinese. The linkage between shorin-ryu kata and Chinese training sets is much more tenuous compared to the above styles.

Shotokan: Japanese. Technique is quite different from its shorin-ryu parent. It is full of zen philosophy and attempts to recreate almost a 'samurai' mentality.

Wado-ryu: Many of the comments about Shotokan could also be made for Wado-ryu. It's definitely Japanese considering it was created by a Japanese who blended jujutsu and some concepts from swordsmanship into Shotokan karate.

================================

The common theme above is that each style has embarked on its own path, finding different things ideal and worth accentuating. If we can consider Shotokan and Wado-ryu to be Japanese, and I do, there should be no reason why we cannot consider KKW or ITF TKD to be Korean.

Now if we're talking about Kwan-era martial arts, you might get a different opinion out of me, depending on the Kwan.
 
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puunui

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It's tough to pin a nationalistic label on karate. It really depends on the style.


I was going to say something similar, but your post is better. I can definitely feel a difference between Shotokan and my friend's Okinawan Shorin Ryu, even when we are talking about the same kata. The feel is different.
 

leadleg

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You mean they don't know about the Wha Rang Do? They don't know that if it was not for a buddhist monk from Silla going to Japan there would be no code of honor,hence no Samuri...................:BSmeter:
 

puunui

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You mean they don't know about the Wha Rang Do? They don't know that if it was not for a buddhist monk from Silla going to Japan there would be no code of honor,hence no Samuri...................:BSmeter:

That actually might have happened, but maybe not the way that it is coming out.

My own theory is that during the Three Kingdom period, Baekjae was the loser and Silla was the winner. So the royal family of Baekjae moved to Japan in 600 or so AD and established Japan. Meanwhile, Silla ruled the Korean pennisula for centuries.

Then they opened up tombs in Japan saw the Baekjae artifacts and the Korean people who are decendants of Silla said "See, Japan is from Korea." The Japanese people, being decendants from Baekjae, responded by saying "No, we are not from Korea."

So what is going on is that Korea (Silla) is saying Japan is Silla, while the Japan (Baekjae) is saying no we are not (we are Baekjae).

Baekjae is located in what is known today as the Chollado provinces, whose people have a strong affinity for Japan. Even the dialect I believe is similar to the Japanese language. Korea is less than I think 100 miles from Japan. You can see Korea from Japan. Obviously, the people of Japan had to have come from the Asia continent, and Korea is the most logical place.
 

leadleg

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Is it not factual history that Buddhism came to Japan from Korea?
 

Spork3245

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Who are the two brothers who developed Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo?

I have no idea. This is what my old TSD instructor told me, though I may have mixed it up with Sin Moo Hapkido? Anyway, they seem to have been invented from the same group of people, as they carry many similarities to one another. The "two brothers" thing wasn't the point of my post, at all, so if you don't like/agree with it, too bad? :p

"A corps composed of a group of young aristocrats who were called "Hwa Rang Dan" was the major force behind the development of the art. These warriors were instrumental in unifying the Korean peninsula under the new Silla Dynasty (668 AD - 935 AD). Many of the early leaders of that dynasty were originally members of the Hwa Rang Dan. Most Korean martial arts trace their spiritual and technical heritage to this group. In fact, the names of some martial arts such as Hwa Rang Do or Hwa Soo Do, still reflect this origination." - http://www.josefikskoreantsd.com/history.htm

The point I was trying to make is that the components that make up TKD are something like ~2000 years old (The name itself, "Tae Kwan Do" is only roughly ~55 years old, if I'm not mistaken - It exsisted before then, just didn't have a "unified" name), so to say that it's "not really Korean because the people who invented it studied karate originally" is absolutely asinine. :)

"Hey guys, Krav Maga isn't Israeli because Imi Lichtenfeld studied Boxing and Judo!" :p
 
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puunui

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I have no idea. This is what my old TSD instructor told me, though I may have mixed it up with Sin Moo Hapkido? Anyway, they seem to have been invented from the same group of people, as they carry many similarities to one another.


GM LEE Won Kuk, who was the person who first coined the term Tang Soo Do, did have a brother, but I don't believe he did any martial arts. As for Hapkido, two twin brothers did train with GM JI Han Jae and went on to form their own styles. One was GM MYONG Jae Nam, who created Hankido, and the other is GM MYONG Jae Ok, who created Hwe Jon Moo Sool.
 

miguksaram

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That actually might have happened, but maybe not the way that it is coming out.

My own theory is that during the Three Kingdom period, Baekjae was the loser and Silla was the winner. So the royal family of Baekjae moved to Japan in 600 or so AD and established Japan. Meanwhile, Silla ruled the Korean pennisula for centuries.

Then they opened up tombs in Japan saw the Baekjae artifacts and the Korean people who are decendants of Silla said "See, Japan is from Korea." The Japanese people, being decendants from Baekjae, responded by saying "No, we are not from Korea."

It goes a bit earlier than that. During 371 Paekche went northward into Koguryo domain, all the way up to Pyongyang, where they killed the reining Koguryo king. Paekche then held a larger portion of the Korean Peninsula. To solidify his international position, Paekche King Kun Cho'go would make overtures to Easter Chin and the Wa people of Japan. So with that in mind, traveling to and from Japan and exchanging craftsmanship as well as other trades, would show that some of Japan's culture could have its origins in Korean culture. Then, as you mentioned Glenn, there was supposedly a huge exodus of Paekche people to Japan after the Silla kingdom took over.

This not to give in to the notion that Hwarang warriors taught Samurai their skills....far from it. However, other cultural parts of Japan could in fact have Korean origins.
 

leadleg

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Without saying that Wha Rang taught the samurai,one could say that without Buddhism there would be no warrior class.If it is factual that Buddhism was brought to Japan during that period from Silla. Would it be possible that the three kingdom warriors may be the first spiritual warriors?
 

puunui

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Without saying that Wha Rang taught the samurai,one could say that without Buddhism there would be no warrior class.If it is factual that Buddhism was brought to Japan during that period from Silla. Would it be possible that the three kingdom warriors may be the first spiritual warriors?

Not only Buddhism, but all aspects of Japanese culture came from China, through Korea. Korea is the closest land mass to Japan.
 

miguksaram

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Without saying that Wha Rang taught the samurai,one could say that without Buddhism there would be no warrior class.If it is factual that Buddhism was brought to Japan during that period from Silla. Would it be possible that the three kingdom warriors may be the first spiritual warriors?
Actually Buddhism was introduced to Japan through its trade with Paekche. It was either King Muryeong or King Seong of Paekche which did this, not sure which as the reports only list that it was around mid 500's which both of these Kings reigned around that time. However, it was strongly opposed by the masses. It was around 700's that Buddhism finally took a strong foot hold as an acceptable religion.

As far as the whole warrior class is concerned, how do you figure it was Buddhism which influnced the class system of either society?
 

crushing

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It's kind of funny that I'm wearing my "Korean Karate" TKD t-shirt as I'm reading this thread. This also reminds me of a time I wore this t-shirt to play volleyball and a person that is in the American Karate System (RIP Mr. Ernie Lieb) looked at my t-shirt and told me that karate isn't Korean. I just looked at him and smiled.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Today we had some other instructors over to train some and the converstation turned to why is TKD considered a Korean art when it roots is Karate? Then they even came to the point of saying TKD is nt and will never be a Korean art except for OLympic TKD because that is truely what the Korean Masters wanted all those years ago a sport to call there own. I am hoping to have some intelligent converstation over this, because even though TKD roots are from Karate I tend to think of TKD mainly being a Korean art, not just a sport....
Taekwondo is most definitely a Korean art. Not sure why taekwondoin senior to yourself would say otherwise.

Taekwondo has roots outside of Korea, but every martial art has roots outside of its own national boundaries.

Just as Shotokan is considered to be Japanese for a host of reasons (not the least of which is that it was developed in Japan), taekwondo is distinctly Korean (not only because it was developed in Korea, but it was developed by actual Koreans; Funkoshi may have developed Shotokan, and Shotokan may be Japanese, but Funakoshi was Okinawan).

To be fair, I used to have the mentality that Taekwondo was just Shotokan with rearanged forms and Korean terminology, but some very kind and patient people took the time to explain differently and to point me in directions so that I could discover that myself.

But then, I wasn't a senior taekwondoin either.

Daniel
 
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