Testing a non-student for black belt

[MJS]

Well, yes and no... here's what he said:



Now, why would someone contact you and say they had been training for a long time and had all the requirements for black belt if that wasn't what the person wanted? I mean, if they wanted to train, all they would have to do is show up - as an instructor, I always ask if students have any previous knoweldge/experience, because even if it's a different style, people with training in other MAs generally understand things non-MAists don't, especially those that have never trained in any sport - body mechanics and how to control your own body being the key ones, IMHO - and honestly, I would expect someone solely self-trained, which is what this situation sounds like to me, to have some serious deficits (most people practice the things they like the most - and avoid the things they don't like) and some bad habits, which would make training longer and more difficult, habits being hard to break. But why show up and make a point of saying "I have all the skills needed to be a black belt" unless you were trying to attain that goal based on what you'd already done? And where and with whom (if anyone) has this person been training that s/he has no rank at all? If that's normal for your style - well and good - but even then, I would have doubts - but from the rest of the scenario, it doesn't sound like it is, or there wouldn't be a question about jumping the person past color belt ranks over students who have already been there some time.



Now, as far as I'm concerned, this is a somewhat different situation... sort of. The person has now been your student for a few months, and you as the instructor now know more about him/her and his/her abilities. But even so, I, as an instructor, would not allow the person to go straight to BB... and I doubt I would allow the person to multi-test, either - see above for one reason why. Here's another: if you're truly that good, why do you need an instructor to tell you that? Learn an organization's rules, go to an open tournament, and determine for yourself - as you've done with all of your learning to that point - how you compare. Compete in forms, sparring, and self-defense and see if how you do compared to the other competitors. But the only reason I can see to go to an instructor and claim BB level skills is if you expect to be given a BB for those skills, or to skip the time and effort that other students put in to reach that level.

Ability is not everything - in many cases, it is the smallest piece. Some people are naturally athletic - and in my experience, they tend not to stick around past the middle color belt ranks, because that's where natural athleticism stops conferring a significant advantage, and the requirements become more technical and nit-picky; people who have worked hard begin to see the pay-off, and people who have coasted to that point suddenly finding themselves having to work to improve - and the latter group are much more likely to drop out than the former group; at least, that's what I've seen for myself. And I find it much more likely that someone in the latter group would be the person in this scenario.

As an instructor, I have a responsibility to teach my students how and when to use the skills I've taught them - I couldn't be sure the person in this scenario would know that at the level I expect from a BB, and that would be much more of a concern for me than would the physical ability alone.

Good points Kacey. I'm certainly not disagreeing and I would be certain to question the person as to their background. Even if the person attempted to lie about their training, it should be obvious to a trained eye whether or not they learned from a dvd or a live person.

Mike

 

[MBuzzy]

So what about another rank? 1st Gup or a rank very close to black belt. We are referring to black belt as a defined point. But is the journey to "black belt" not a gradual one? You become a black belt through extensive training. The belt itself is completely arbitrary - not to take away any of the meaning, but one black belt in one system means nothing to another system....in fact, sometimes a black belt in one system is still not a black belt at other schools of the same system.

Isn't this really a question of whether you would promote them to any high rank? What if the same person exhibited all of the qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan?

 

[DArnold]

So what about another rank? 1st Gup or a rank very close to black belt. We are referring to black belt as a defined point. But is the journey to "black belt" not a gradual one? You become a black belt through extensive training. The belt itself is completely arbitrary - not to take away any of the meaning, but one black belt in one system means nothing to another system....in fact, sometimes a black belt in one system is still not a black belt at other schools of the same system.

Isn't this really a question of whether you would promote them to any high rank? What if the same person exhibited all of the qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan?

How long does it take you to discern the "qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan"?

Do you consider "qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan" physical only?

 

[TraditionalTKD]

Keep in mind, one of my responsibilities as an instructor and judge is to know the background and personality of people testing for black belt. Having a black belt is a big responsibility, and before I sign off on someone or pass them to black, I'm going to make sure I know who they are, their background, where they're coming from, and perhaps their family history. The last thing I want is to sign off on a person who, it turns out, may not deserve that belt. Physical technique is only part of it. What is their mind like? Are they angry at someone? Why didn't they go to an official school? Did they have an argument with a previous instructor and leave? All these questions need to be answered before I'd consider doing anything with them.

 

[kidswarrior]

Keep in mind, one of my responsibilities as an instructor and judge is to know the background and personality of people testing for black belt. Having a black belt is a big responsibility, and before I sign off on someone or pass them to black, I'm going to make sure I know who they are, their background, where they're coming from, and perhaps their family history. The last thing I want is to sign off on a person who, it turns out, may not deserve that belt. Physical technique is only part of it. What is their mind like? Are they angry at someone?

Now that I read your response (for the second time), it occurs to me that I may have over-personalized my thinking/response. I'm in a special situation, so need to explain.

I normally work with teens who have a pretty checkered past. Some MA teachers would probably turn them away, and I wouldn't necessarily blame them. But I've been working with them in my day job about 20 years, so kinda gives me a leg up. What I've found is one of two outcomes. The truly hard core, made-up-his-mind to be a career criminal, will drop out of MA fast--two or three classes at most, because all he was looking for was a better way to hurt people. Since we don't do that, he leaves.

Then there are the ones that make it all worthwhile. Kids that would be charged with felonies if over 18, but given second chances because they're minors. Then they get to me, and a few of these kids--who've not had any success anywhere in life--find they can do MA's. They put in the work and get the rewards. I've seen some truly stunning transformations.

But to the point: the transformations come over a long period of time, and it's time we spend together. So someone off the street wouldn't have done this. And as you say, I'd have to look at that a little differently.

Why didn't they go to an official school? Did they have an argument with a previous instructor and leave? All these questions need to be answered before I'd consider doing anything with them.

I have fewer problems with this part of the evaluation. IMHO there are many reasons somone may have dropped off the traditional route, just as there are many non-traditional learners/thinkers in our schools and universities. Some become famous innovators and entrepreneurs. Not all--some may have not had a good reason for taking a different path--but perhaps a few.

 

[DArnold]

Now that I read your response (for the second time), it occurs to me that I may have over-personalized my thinking/response. I'm in a special situation, so need to explain.

I normally work with teens who have a pretty checkered past. Some MA teachers would probably turn them away, and I wouldn't necessarily blame them. But I've been working with them in my day job about 20 years, so kinda gives me a leg up. What I've found is one of two outcomes. The truly hard core, made-up-his-mind to be a career criminal, will drop out of MA fast--two or three classes at most, because all he was looking for was a better way to hurt people. Since we don't do that, he leaves.

Then there are the ones that make it all worthwhile. Kids that would be charged with felonies if over 18, but given second chances because they're minors. Then they get to me, and a few of these kids--who've not had any success anywhere in life--find they can do MA's. They put in the work and get the rewards. I've seen some truly stunning transformations.

But to the point: the transformations come over a long period of time, and it's time we spend together. So someone off the street wouldn't have done this. And as you say, I'd have to look at that a little differently.



I have fewer problems with this part of the evaluation. IMHO there are many reasons somone may have dropped off the traditional route, just as there are many non-traditional learners/thinkers in our schools and universities. Some become famous innovators and entrepreneurs. Not all--some may have not had a good reason for taking a different path--but perhaps a few.

I think the point was about rank hoppers, or people's who's cup is already full and will as you pointed out, probably be a problem latter on for you also!

 

[MBuzzy]

How long does it take you to discern the "qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan"?

Do you consider "qualities and skills of a 2nd Dan" physical only?

That's the point....the "qualities and skills" differ between every school. There is no gold standard "Black belt." The same person that you won't test will probably find a McDojang who will. I'm not advocating it, just pointing that out.

So is your stance that none of these "other than physical" qualities apply to any other rank other than Black Belt? I feel that the martial arts in general, rank completely aside, are far more than just the physical aspects.

As for how long it takes.....depends on the school, depends on the instructor.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I think the point was about rank hoppers, or people's who's cup is already full and will as you pointed out, probably be a problem latter on for you also!

Heh. Rank hoppers. Oye.

*step back from topic*

Nevermind, it's just as bad when I step back.