Special Belt for Experienced Students From Other Schools/Similar Styles

[MadMartigan145 60]

Looking for thoughts on potential pitfalls that I may not have considered:

Using a belt color (like Grey, or maybe a brown with a white stripe running through it, etc) that has nothing to do with my school's regular belt system for experienced transfer students.

Not active transfers from the same style (old style Taekwon-Do), but for people like:
- A karate Brown Belt moving to my town and starting to learn our style
- A former black belt in a very similar style of TKD, but who was starting back again after over 20 years away from training

These people are not white belts. Their experience and general knowledge sets them apart from the beginners, but they are missing specifics of our curriculum or are just really rusty. They could then test into our ranking where it makes sense after an appropriate evaluation over several months or more.

I know (and agree) that 'it's better to wear a white Belt and have people ask why, than to wear a black belt, and have people ask why'.

I've had this idea rolling around in my head for over a year, and am now really considering giving it a try. I think this could be a good way to recognize and validate the new tranfer, while showing that... Yes, they are a senior student, but that they don't know all our stuff yet.

Any thoughts on whether this would or would not work, and why?
Thanks

 

[ap Oweyn51 5]

If I'm being honest, my gut reaction was to just let them begin again. It's what I did in changing styles. Though, when I take a minute, the reasoning behind that was obvious. I was changing from TKD to Eskrima. And, beyond some very fundamental attributes (e.g., balance, awareness, etc.), I was learning a brand new skill set without a ton of carryover.

But when I start thinking about this from the perspective of other people in the class, I warm to the idea a lot. It's human nature to judge yourself and your progress by the people on either side of you. If you're a 55-year-old like myself, you might rake yourself over the coals for not being as readily flexible as a teenager (a feeling that obviously doesn't make sense rationally). Comparing yourself with a newer student at your school when they have substantial experience in something else isn't really fair to you.

If this belt makes other students look at the "new" student and say "well, they're not starting from scratch though, are they," I think that could be a good thing.

There's a lot about a belt system that's actually about signaling something to other people. And, given the reality of people exploring different styles and schools, signaling that you're new here BUT not just naturally gifted... I kind of like it.

At the same time, it conveys the idea that someone is something different until they've earned their placement in the current system. So there's some accountability built into it as well.

I also like the idea of gray, as this represents sort of a gray area in terms of ranking systems.

All that said, I haven't participated in a ranking system in decades. And it's been more of a "know what you know" setup. But if you are using a ranking system, I rather like this idea. For whatever that's worth.

 

[skribs153 173]

It's a good question. It's actually one I've considered if I were to open a no-forms version of TKD. I've discussed the idea on the TKD forum, of running a TKD class parallel to a BJJ class in which we focus almost exclusively on TKD-style kicking and sparring. In that style, belts would be given similar to BJJ. But I've also thought about transfer belts in relation to a "broad-spectrum" TKD class that includes a full curriculum.

First, let's look at what the belts mean and why we might want to give them a white belt OR why we might want to give them something else.

• In favor of the upper belt:
  • We want to respect their journey and past work.
  • We want to show respect to their former Master and school.
  • We want to give an idea of their experience level to the instructors and the other students in the class.
• In favor of the white belt:
  • We want to show how much we trust their martial skills based on our experience with them. Because we have no experience with them, we give them a white belt.
  • Because if they did not go to a quality school, they may embarrass our school by wearing an upper belt.
  • We do not want them to be in over there head with our curriculum (whether because they're learning a bunch of new rote material or having trouble assimilating, or because they were not given quality training at their past school).

I will say that in my experience, most people who quit one school and then join another school in a similar art are going to be good at it. Even if they went to a McDojo that had decent teaching but low standards, the ones passionate enough to continue after the hardship of leaving their old gym tend to have the skill that comes with it. I have fond memories of several students who transferred into our gym and were among the best at their rank almost immediately. I have one memory of a girl that was woefully underprepared by her previous gym.

This girl is the one reason I would say a risk assessment is prudent. I'm not saying because of her, we should just give white belts to every newcomer regardless of experience. But I am saying I wouldn't judge a school for making that policy. This girl came in with a black belt. She would've struggled in the purple/orange class. She could barely do a roundhouse kick, and didn't know any other kicks. Her forms were incredibly sloppy. She barely knew how to follow directions and had a poor attitude. We turned all that around in the couple years she was with us, and by the time she earned her 2nd degree under us, she was at least as good as most of our black belts.

But during the first year there, it was a struggle for her. I could tell she was embarrassed. She always needed someone to coach her through every movement of drills that were pretty basic for everyone else. She was the only one that needed constant handholding throughout the class. I feel she would have been much better served by being put in our purple/orange class. In that class, we teach the fundamentals that she was struggling with.

With that said, I feel there's a number of options when someone comes in with an upper belt from a similar style. Since we're talking TKD, I'm going to say arts like TKD, TSD, many forms of Karate, or some forms of Kung Fu. I'm ignoring belts from arts without forms (such as Krav Maga, Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-JItsu, etc.).

1. Bring everyone in as a white belt.
   1. And have them follow the process.
   2. Or let them skip-test.
   3. Or after a few weeks or few months, promote them where you think they should be based on their demonstrated skill.
2. Bring them in at their current rank (or an equivalent color, depending on the belt order of their previous school).
   1. And possibly demote them to a lower belt if it's clear they're in over their head.
   2. Or let them keep that belt until they're ready to be promoted to the next level.
   3. Or promote purely based on improvement and keep giving promotions to encourage retention.
3. Bring them in without a belt until you're confident where they place in your system.
4. Bring them in with a non-color belt (at least, not a color in your style) or bring them in with a stripe. For example, if you only do solid color belts, they could come in as brown with white stripe. Something to signify that they're experienced, but also an outsider.

Each of these carries some risk.

• Bring everyone in as a white belt, you risk:
  • Alienating someone who feels disrespected. (Savvy Talk-No-Jitsu can help with this).
  • Holding someone back in their career if they want to coach or open their own gym.
  • Confusing the other white belts when this new "white belt" is clearly experienced.
• Bring everyone in at their current rank, and you risk the issues I mention above. They may embarrass the gym or they may embarrass themselves.
• Bring everyone in with a symbol of the outsider and they may feel even more like an outsider.

Personally, if I had to make the choice, I'd bring them in at a mix of 2.1 and 2.2 above. They would carry over their rank from a previous gym. If they're struggling, but still able to keep their head above water, I'd let them keep it, but it would be a bit before they were promoted. I would mostly look at how they do with kicks and how well they follow along with the curriculum, not necessarily how well they do with my specific self-defense curriculum or how fast they memorize the forms.

However, if someone was clearly drowning, I'd give them a lower-color life vest. I would do my best to tell them I think it's a good opportunity to work on fundamentals and build up to where they need to be.

I've been the guy that's been told, "I don't care what belt you got from another school, if I didn't give you a belt, you're a white belt in my school." I've seen what happens when people transfer into a BJJ gym as an upper belt and are basically plug-and-play. But I've also seen the girl I mentioned earlier. I wouldn't want someone that deficient representing my gym, and I wouldn't want to put someone through that gauntlet again.

 

[skribs153 173]

FWIW, I had the opposite problem in the no-forms class. What do you do with someone who maybe has Muay Thai or kickboxing experience where there was no belt?

 

[philwhite2 1]

If someone wants to wear their old uniform and just train at my school temporarily I don’t mind what belt they wear. If they enroll in our program, put on our uniform, and want to advance they start at white belt. If they come from a similar background or pick things up quickly they may advance a bit faster.

I think part of putting someone at white belt is you need time to get to know them. If someone off the street came in at a higher belt they may be good but I need time to assess how they work with others, how they spar, are their form moves inline with what I teach, etc.

Say a brown belt enrolls in our school and they are quite talented, They will start back at white but instead of 3-4 years of work to get to back to brown it may be much less depending on if they mesh well with the program.

I also don’t want my long time students to feel left out if someone gets to skip rank. They put in the time and effort with me to get where they are and that means a lot.

 

[Rich Parsons99 2]

I used this post because I liked it
I am not using it to attack anyone.
I am using it as a place to add more of my opinion.

If I'm being honest, my gut reaction was to just let them begin again. It's what I did in changing styles. Though, when I take a minute, the reasoning behind that was obvious. I was changing from TKD to Eskrima. And, beyond some very fundamental attributes (e.g., balance, awareness, etc.), I was learning a brand new skill set without a ton of carryover.

I was asked to coach a school in trouble by a mutual third party.
The instructor was very frustrated I could not just give her a black belt or do a course quickly over a weekend or a few months a few times a week.
It was TSD to FMA

I explained there is too much difference, and where her strong points are (4th Degree) I would not begin to coach her techniques for high kicks. Low kicks we could start talking.

But when I start thinking about this from the perspective of other people in the class, I warm to the idea a lot. It's human nature to judge yourself and your progress by the people on either side of you. If you're a 55-year-old like myself, you might rake yourself over the coals for not being as readily flexible as a teenager (a feeling that obviously doesn't make sense rationally). Comparing yourself with a newer student at your school when they have substantial experience in something else isn't really fair to you.

I think there is a place for it.
I usually let them wear their old belt. The color being a little off, or any extras on the belt would give it away quickly. And people ask why is that different.
Oh they are have rank elsewhere and I let them wear it so people understand they have some skills, maybe not our curriculum.

If this belt makes other students look at the "new" student and say "well, they're not starting from scratch though, are they," I think that could be a good thing.

I agree

There's a lot about a belt system that's actually about signaling something to other people. And, given the reality of people exploring different styles and schools, signaling that you're new here BUT not just naturally gifted... I kind of like it.

Good point

At the same time, it conveys the idea that someone is something different until they've earned their placement in the current system. So there's some accountability built into it as well.

Yes

I also like the idea of gray, as this represents sort of a gray area in terms of ranking systems.

Something should be done.
I was invited an hour away to a JJJ class in the mid 90's. The person who invited me did not show up, so I was changing back n the locker room to leave.
They instructor walked through and said come on out anyway.

I wore a white belt versus black.

The instructor had come back from a BJJ weekend event.
He was going to share some of the things he had learned.

The pair of black belts he placed me with were not working those techniques.
With the large group they thought they could get away with trying to choke me out even after tapping.
He was in mount and not doing a choke. Where his hands and pressure were, was a neck break.
I could talk. I explained I was tapping and for him to stop.
His friend laughed. And he said you are going out.
I poked him in the throat which forced him to post up.
I then shrimped out with a trap of his wrist to my chest. And then demo'd the techniques to them from Guard.
While the person who had not stopped when I tapped, I explained I was not going to stop either. And on the neck break as he could feel it and breath began to scream.

I let go, and stood up. Asked to leave.
The instructor asked me to stay and put me with a giant ( I am 6'3" was 260 lbs ) and this man was easily 7 feet and I could not straddle him when he laid on the ground. He was a white belt.
We worked together.

The point of this is that the white belt made people think the could get away with an assault.

All that said, I haven't participated in a ranking system in decades. And it's been more of a "know what you know" setup. But if you are using a ranking system, I rather like this idea. For whatever that's worth.

I like the less ranking systems. Yet, I do see a value to them. Pros and cons

 

[Buka56]

We had a large student body so things were easier. And each case was different depending on what the new student was looking for in martial arts.

Under black belts all started as white belts, but some would be promoted quicker to mid level belts depending on attendance and martial ability.

Black belts could wear their belt for a few months until I decided where their level of expertise fit in with ours.

If you were only interested in fighting ability you could just come on Thursday nights and spar. We didn’t care what color belt you wore. We had a lot of people who did that. Some did it for over ten years. They were as much a part of our school as all the other students.

 

[Xue Sheng144 16]

If you were only interested in fighting ability you could just come on Thursday nights and spar. We didn’t care what color belt you wore. We had a lot of people who did that. Some did it for over ten years. They were as much a part of our school as all the other students.

My first shifu allowed us to do that on Saturday afternoons. Did not matter style, rank or experience in that style, all could participate. It was a great time

 

[hoshin160056 5]

I guess I'm very old school and I'm probably going to ruffle feathers here. Wear the dang white belt!
I've done a few styles and each time I started over. I started with Kempo karate got up to third black. Moved to Aikido got up to black. I had been teaching for over 10 years in that time span. Then I started uechi- ryu. I think my Uechi teacher had it right. I started first class with a white belt on. The instructor introduced me to the class as a black belt in other styles. He had me show and demonstrate some of what we did in those styles and he gave counter point on how uechi was similar or different. At that point everyone knew I wasn't a typical beginner. He had me stay after class with one of the 3rd degree black belts that was training for the bare knuckle Sabaki Challenge (this is pre mma). They then proceed to beat the crap out of me, humbled me to my core and made me rethink my life choices. he had me punch and kick him with everything I got and he couldn't have cared less. It actually hurt me more to hit him.
Lesson learned. He didn't do this being malicious. He told me years later sometimes you got to tear it down before you can rebuild. Had he not done that I might be good but I would be good at being a kempo guy imitating uechi rather then embodying uechi ryu and being a solid uechi ryu student. Next I got stuck at green belt for longer than average time. why, because it doesn't matter what you did in the past. you need to earn every belt and know you earned it. Maybe you can learn quicker due to your past, then you may earn the next rank in a month, but you earned it.
If you can't understand that and feel entitled to something you didn't earn maybe you need to take up knitting and get an emotional support puppy.
After those humbling lessons and even after all these years if I'm going to a school as a guest or presenter I'll wear an advanced belt in the art I am representing. if I'm there as a student I put on a white belt. Wearing an advanced belt as a student in an art you didn't earn is like stolen Valor to me. If you didn't serve your country you have no right to wear something that signals that you did. If your not a (motorcycke) biker that earned his patch you don't wear a rocker on a cut. You don't represent your self as something your not. if you do, there are people out there that take that serious and will explain that to you in a physical way.
I'll step down off my soap box now.

 

[Buka56]

I guess I'm very old school and I'm probably going to ruffle feathers here. Wear the dang white belt!
I've done a few styles and each time I started over. I started with Kempo karate got up to third black. Moved to Aikido got up to black. I had been teaching for over 10 years in that time span. Then I started uechi- ryu. I think my Uechi teacher had it right. I started first class with a white belt on. The instructor introduced me to the class as a black belt in other styles. He had me show and demonstrate some of what we did in those styles and he gave counter point on how uechi was similar or different. At that point everyone knew I wasn't a typical beginner. He had me stay after class with one of the 3rd degree black belts that was training for the bare knuckle Sabaki Challenge (this is pre mma). They then proceed to beat the crap out of me, humbled me to my core and made me rethink my life choices. he had me punch and kick him with everything I got and he couldn't have cared less. It actually hurt me more to hit him.
Lesson learned. He didn't do this being malicious. He told me years later sometimes you got to tear it down before you can rebuild. Had he not done that I might be good but I would be good at being a kempo guy imitating uechi rather then embodying uechi ryu and being a solid uechi ryu student. Next I got stuck at green belt for longer than average time. why, because it doesn't matter what you did in the past. you need to earn every belt and know you earned it. Maybe you can learn quicker due to your past, then you may earn the next rank in a month, but you earned it.
If you can't understand that and feel entitled to something you didn't earn maybe you need to take up knitting and get an emotional support puppy.
After those humbling lessons and even after all these years if I'm going to a school as a guest or presenter I'll wear an advanced belt in the art I am representing. if I'm there as a student I put on a white belt. Wearing an advanced belt as a student in an art you didn't earn is like stolen Valor to me. If you didn't serve your country you have no right to wear something that signals that you did. If your not a (motorcycke) biker that earned his patch you don't wear a rocker on a cut. You don't represent your self as something your not. if you do, there are people out there that take that serious and will explain that to you in a physical way.
I'll step down off my soap box now.

I have an emotional support puppy but for the life of me I can’t knit.

I don’t think there’s any one answer to any of this. I trained with Uechi Ryu guys off and on for thirty years. I wasn’t taking consistent classes, just training with them when I was near by, and went to their training camps every year (whole lot of fun). Sometimes I wore my black belt, sometimes I wore street clothes.

Went to a promotional dinner after a camp one year and was blindsided by receiving a Life Time Achievement Award in Uechi Ryu Karate by several Judans in their art.

It was rare for me. I was rendered speechless that night. If I remember, I’ll take a photo of the certificate. It’s way fricken cool.

 

[Dirty Dog23]

I think martial artists in general spend way too much time and effort worrying about belts.

 

[MadMartigan145 60]

Wearing an advanced belt as a student in an art you didn't earn is like stolen Valor to me.

That is partly my point.

I don't like having them wear a mid to high rank in my style when they have not earned it here... on the other hand, I haven't been satisfied with them wearing a white Belt either.

A lot of people say to have them wear white, then test into the appropriate rank when ready. I see 2 potential problems with that approach:
1 - They could be stuck at White Belt for an unnaturally long time (until they've memorized several ranks worth of curriculum), while regular new white Belts carry on to Yellow Stripe and Yellow, etc
2 - If they test as soon as they are ready for each next belt, that feels like a waste of both of our time. (Even with no testing fees, for anyone but a true beginner, our White Belt curriculum is very simple).

The idea to have them wear a belt that exists outside my school's ranking system was an attempt to split the difference. Give them something that they could wear for a year or more (if necessary) rather than having them wear a white Belt that whole time while everyone else only wears it for a few months.

 

[Dirty Dog23]

My rule has always been wear what you want. Doesn't matter at all. In my experience, people who transfer and want to wear their higher rank don't generally stick long. I think it's quite possible that they have too much ego involved.
For myself, I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than my actual rank and have people wonder why.

 

[frank raud95 5]

There's a lot about a belt system that's actually about signaling something to other people. And, given the reality of people exploring different styles and schools, signaling that you're new here BUT not just naturally gifted... I kind of like it.

I recently did a class at Lori O'Connell's new dojo (author of When The Fight Goes To The Ground). Before arriving, she informed us to wear a t-shirt and NOT to wear our belts. when we introduced ourselves to the group, we were told to say our names and primary style, but not our rank. We proceeded with the class and at the end put on our Gi tops and belts for pictures. It's interesting when the person you've been training with is suddenly a brown belt, a 6th Dan, a 4th Dan. We trained without pre-conceived ideas of our partners skill based on the belt they wear. Admittedly this was a seminar, not a regular class

 

[Shugyosha52 5]

I guess I'm very old school and I'm probably going to ruffle feathers here. Wear the dang white belt!
I've done a few styles and each time I started over. I started with Kempo karate got up to third black. Moved to Aikido got up to black. I had been teaching for over 10 years in that time span. Then I started uechi- ryu. I think my Uechi teacher had it right. I started first class with a white belt on. The instructor introduced me to the class as a black belt in other styles. He had me show and demonstrate some of what we did in those styles and he gave counter point on how uechi was similar or different. At that point everyone knew I wasn't a typical beginner. He had me stay after class with one of the 3rd degree black belts that was training for the bare knuckle Sabaki Challenge (this is pre mma). They then proceed to beat the crap out of me, humbled me to my core and made me rethink my life choices. he had me punch and kick him with everything I got and he couldn't have cared less. It actually hurt me more to hit him.
Lesson learned. He didn't do this being malicious. He told me years later sometimes you got to tear it down before you can rebuild. Had he not done that I might be good but I would be good at being a kempo guy imitating uechi rather then embodying uechi ryu and being a solid uechi ryu student. Next I got stuck at green belt for longer than average time. why, because it doesn't matter what you did in the past. you need to earn every belt and know you earned it. Maybe you can learn quicker due to your past, then you may earn the next rank in a month, but you earned it.
If you can't understand that and feel entitled to something you didn't earn maybe you need to take up knitting and get an emotional support puppy.
After those humbling lessons and even after all these years if I'm going to a school as a guest or presenter I'll wear an advanced belt in the art I am representing. if I'm there as a student I put on a white belt. Wearing an advanced belt as a student in an art you didn't earn is like stolen Valor to me. If you didn't serve your country you have no right to wear something that signals that you did. If your not a (motorcycke) biker that earned his patch you don't wear a rocker on a cut. You don't represent your self as something your not. if you do, there are people out there that take that serious and will explain that to you in a physical way.
I'll step down off my soap box now.

Did you learn Nick Cerio or EP Kenpo?

As for me? I came into Uechi Ryu a assistant instructor in JKD. My Sensei told me most of his current student have come from other styles.

When I started Kajukenbo, I think my sigung told the other students I had some experience but it was also obvious once we started doing pad work.

That being said, I have no problem being a whitebelt.

 

[ap Oweyn51 5]

I guess I'm very old school and I'm probably going to ruffle feathers here. Wear the dang white belt! ... The instructor introduced me to the class as a black belt in other styles. He had me show and demonstrate some of what we did in those styles and he gave counter point on how uechi was similar or different. At that point everyone knew I wasn't a typical beginner.

You're certainly not ruffling mine, for whatever that's worth. I think MadMartigan's solution could work. But mainly because it signals to other people why one person appears to be different from their "peers." Sounds like your sensei also had a very elegant solution.

 

[ap Oweyn51 5]

I recently did a class at Lori O'Connell's new dojo (author of When The Fight Goes To The Ground). Before arriving, she informed us to wear a t-shirt and NOT to wear our belts. when we introduced ourselves to the group, we were told to say our names and primary style, but not our rank. We proceeded with the class and at the end put on our Gi tops and belts for pictures. It's interesting when the person you've been training with is suddenly a brown belt, a 6th Dan, a 4th Dan. We trained without pre-conceived ideas of our partners skill based on the belt they wear. Admittedly this was a seminar, not a regular class

A bit tangentially, in my brief dalliance with BJJ (based on a chronic health condition, rather than any objection to BJJ), I attended a class where they had me put a belt on. Gi top too, presumably, though I don't remember that bit. I grabbed a white belt out of a box because... what else was I going to put on?!

After getting submitted or choked out for the umpteenth time, a partner asked where I'd gotten my white belt in BJJ. ("That box over there.") There was some eye rolling involved on his part and a realisation on mine how much experience that belt reflected in BJJ. Not that I'd had any choice in putting it on, mind you.

Sometimes signaling to others doesn't go quite as intended.

 

[Gyakuto154 163]

A bit tangentially, in my brief dalliance with BJJ (based on a chronic health condition, rather than any objection to BJJ), I attended a class where they had me put a belt on. Gi top too, presumably, though I don't remember that bit. I grabbed a white belt out of a box because... what else was I going to put on?!

After getting submitted or choked out for the umpteenth time, a partner asked where I'd gotten my white belt in BJJ. ("That box over there.") There was some eye rolling involved on his part and a realisation on mine how much experience that belt reflected in BJJ. Not that I'd had any choice in putting it on, mind you.

Sometimes signaling to others doesn't go quite as intended.

BJJ doesn’t use the internationally and culturally recognised white belt as the colour of a beginner? For goodness sake! Why even bother with belts in that case? You’ll be telling me next that black belt isn’t the colour of ‘reasonable competence’.

 

[ap Oweyn51 5]

BJJ doesn’t use the internationally and culturally recognised white belt as the colour of a beginner? For goodness sake! Why even bother with belts in that case? You’ll be telling me next that black belt isn’t the colour of ‘reasonable competence’.

I think the implication is that I was notably worse than a rank beginner in BJJ. An implication that was consistent with feedback I received from my neck and elbow joints.

 

[Gyakuto154 163]

I think the implication is that I was notably worse than a rank beginner in BJJ. An implication that was consistent with feedback I received from my neck and elbow joints.

But there’s a ‘6 month white belt’ and a ‘30 minute white belt’!