Testing a non-student for black belt

[IWishToLearn]

Good question as it seems to have struck a chord with many!

One:
By promoting based on time limits and physical ability you come to the situation we have today: many people wearing belts with lots of numbers on them that have a very limited, if any, concept of the mental aspects of a martial arts. I.e. code of honer, ethics, morals, teaching, student instructor relationship...

Who says the instructor is the model for behavior? There are a lot of aloof, self-centered people who are fantastic teachers, and claim to model the qualities you've listed, however anyone else you ask (besides themselves) will tell you otherwise. It happens far more often than I'd like to see it. Ethics and morals are completely subjective to the upbringing of us all as individuals. There isn't a cookie cutter mold that fits everyone, and therefore the ethics and morals taught in the dojo could very well be completely different from what you've known all your life at home. Teaching and instructor/student relationship are two completely separate issues.

And as an instructor (and your students represent you) how would you know the first thing about how this student would react in various situations? Courtsey? Integrity? Humility?... when you don't even know them!!!

Do you have to know who someone is in their personal life to teach them effective self-defense? (I agree with you, for the record, just offering a counterpoint as food for thought.)

Two:

The very nature of the question, as presented, is an indicator of the students lack of ability/understanding. The martial arts are based on a student/instructor relationship that the instructor mentors the student on the journey by showing them the path.

Again, everyone's path is different. Unless you're a complete clone of your instructor, you'll move differently, have a different personality, and a different methodology for attempting to accomplish a similar goal. Who am I to decide what one of my student's "paths" are. All I can do is offer options and provide MY insight as to what path *I* believe is best for them to take. The choice is ultimately NOT the instructor's, but the students'. Not to sound cliche, but here's a quote from the Matrix - "I can show you the door, you're the one who has to walk through it."

Three:

This is no different than the student who tells you that they feel they are not ready to test. This is the same as a child saying, "Hey, I'm not ready for the third grade, so I think I'll stay in the second grade" It is not the child or the students decision on where they are at but the instructor/mentor. Once the student starts deciding when and what they want to do then there is no reason for the instructor/mentor as the student is calling the shots.

What of the students who simply do not want to test for rank, but merely just want to train?

Four:
This also shows a lack of understanding of the Eastern phylosophy/style of teaching. The last time any student of mine asked to test they lengthend their testing time by 6 months!

I'm about as non-traditional when it comes to the arts as you can get without doing away with the uniforms (we wear them to save wear and tear on street clothes) and belt (worn to help classmates determine who to ask for help) system entirely. I'm so sick and tired of seeing political agendas veiled behind Eastern philosophy/style of teaching it ain't funny. I haven't asked to test for any promotion I've tested in front of my instructors for since I figured out it wasn't the belt color that mattered, but the knowledge behind it instead. I have a general rule for my students that says, if they think they're ready to test, they can ask. Either way, be it if the student tests at my recommendation or if they themselves believe they're ready, they'll get the same brutally explorative testing procedure and grading. Some will pass, some will fail. Nobody is perfect, including the instructor - and too many instructors hold people back without even realizing it. I've seen several students who simply cannot perform during normal classes at 100% level, but when you start the test somehow they reach deep down and you get 125% out of them; as well as the direct opposite - the ones who are dead on in class can't test to save their lives. I've also had promotion dates set, and delayed for two years with no explanation given; as well as dates moved up by a year, and have been double and triple tested several times. In retrospect it was my instructor's decision, but it wasn't a very enjoyable experience for me either way. I would have preferred to move on when I could see for myself the results of the lessons I'd learned, rather than move on solely because someone else told me I was ready. Some of the time I didn't feel ready, made mistakes, and was passed along anywho. It was disheartening. I've heard instructors use the phrase "I passed them to motivate them to continue." If you're there for the color of your belt rank - that's a great policy. Nobody in my school is rank motivated - and to do so would destroy the fundamental approach to learning my school has fostered.

As the peice of paper or piece of cotten is meaningless my question to you is what would be the point, reason, usefulness of promoting them?

Who benefits from the situation in the long term? I've signed my name to several promotion certificates that I was asked to sit on the board for that I felt didn't pass the formal test, but I was over ruled. If belts and diplomas really don't mean anything - how are you damaging something with no meaning? I made a response to the original posted question on page 1 about having to issue a specifically worded diploma that would be vastly different from my own student's diplomas. The wording on a diploma in this circumstance would have to read something about merely acknowledging the skill level of this person in writing, rather than actually promoting this person - because to issue a promotion would place them in my own lineage, and I'd only consider this kind of rank to be similar to a test I was on the board for, but not in charge of promotion for.

In other words, why promote them?

See above.

Great points made - I love discussions like these.

 

[kidswarrior]

As those that know much about the martial arts understand, your example and the question posed at the beginning are worlds apart.

How so? The spirit of the original question is, Would you consider a non-linear path to rank promotion. The story regarding tellner's friend illustrates one example of such a non-linear, one-student-sticks-with-one-teacher, approach.

 

[DArnold]

Who says the instructor is the model for behavior?

There are a lot of aloof, self-centered people who are fantastic teachers, and claim to model the qualities you've listed, however anyone else you ask (besides themselves) will tell you otherwise. It happens far more often than I'd like to see it. Ethics and morals are completely subjective to the upbringing of us all as individuals. There isn't a cookie cutter mold that fits everyone, and therefore the ethics and morals taught in the dojo could very well be completely different from what you've known all your life at home. Teaching and instructor/student relationship are two completely separate issues.

If you don't think the instructor is the model...

then you haven't been to many martial arts classes. And when I said the instructor teaches the mental aspects I did not say that the student then looses his free will to choose. You have made a lot of assumptions. Also, no where did I say that the instructor was without flaws. If you don't need an instructor, then don't ask to be promoted by one. It makes no sense to say you don't need an instructor but then acknowledge the system by thinking you need to be promoted by one. That shows a flaw in the initial question when on one hand you say, "I don't need you because I know it all" and then on the other had I am insecure and need you to validate me.

Also, you can not have a student/instructor relationship without teaching , the two are intertwined and not completly different.

Do you have to know who someone is in their personal life to teach them effective self-defense? (I agree with you, for the record, just offering a counterpoint as food for thought.)

I don't teach just self-defense, I teach Martial Arts. Self defense is a small part of the martial arts.

Again, everyone's path is different. Unless you're a complete clone of your instructor, you'll move differently, have a different personality, and a different methodology for attempting to accomplish a similar goal. Who am I to decide what one of my student's "paths" are. All I can do is offer options and provide MY insight as to what path *I* believe is best for them to take. The choice is ultimately NOT the instructor's, but the students'. Not to sound cliche, but here's a quote from the Matrix - "I can show you the door, you're the one who has to walk through it."

Are you making another assumption that all paths an instructor teaches are the same or that they are all linear? An instructor teaches hundreds of paths. That is why physical aspects and timelines are only a part of Martial arts. They must be acheived through varying, individual paths. Many of the doors the instructor opens are mearly choices that the student must make. No where did I say that the instructor makes all the choices for the student. But sometimes you do, as you know which hurdles will help the student progress (You example on testing!)

You also just validated my comments where you said, "I can show you the door..." In the initial question, the student has stated that they showed themself the door. A very funny, yet false concept.

What of the students who simply do not want to test for rank, but merely just want to train?

If you are the instructor, instruct. If the student is the instructor, then go to aerobics. Testing is a mental part of training. Just as you stated below, it shows a different mental affect on every student, thus guiding them and you on how their path progresses.

I'm about as non-traditional when it comes to the arts as you can get without doing away with the uniforms (we wear them to save wear and tear on street clothes) and belt (worn to help classmates determine who to ask for help) system entirely.

I'm so sick and tired of seeing political agendas veiled behind Eastern philosophy/style of teaching it ain't funny.

What political agenda are you talking about? There is a vast difference between Eastern and Western style teachings. And as you have stated below many teaching styles have been modified because Westerners can not handle the mental aspects without kudo's like belts and certificates.

I haven't asked to test for any promotion I've tested in front of my instructors for since I figured out it wasn't the belt color that mattered, but the knowledge behind it instead.

Yes, this is a great catch 22. We say that rank is not important but what is the #1 factor that motivates students... rank. (And I did not say everybody, but it is the majority)

I have a general rule for my students that says, if they think they're ready to test, they can ask. Either way, be it if the student tests at my recommendation or if they themselves believe they're ready, they'll get the same brutally explorative testing procedure and grading. Some will pass, some will fail. Nobody is perfect, including the instructor - and too many instructors hold people back without even realizing it.

Who ever said instructors stop being students?

I've seen several students who simply cannot perform during normal classes at 100% level, but when you start the test somehow they reach deep down and you get 125% out of them; as well as the direct opposite - the ones who are dead on in class can't test to save their lives. I've also had promotion dates set, and delayed for two years with no explanation given; as well as dates moved up by a year, and have been double and triple tested several times. In retrospect it was my instructor's decision, but it wasn't a very enjoyable experience for me either way.

So what, who says your instructor answers to you? If you need your instructor to prove themself to you all the time then maybe it is time for you to find another instructor, since the comments say you don't respect your instructors judgement.

I am confused by your comments as on one hand you say it does not matter, but on the other you are upset. Which is it?

I would have preferred to move on when I could see for myself the results of the lessons I'd learned, rather than move on solely because someone else told me I was ready.

So you wish to be your own teacher, simple. Why then do you bother going to your instructor if you don't respect his judgement.

You might look up definition of the word respect as it means: You defer to someone elses judgement.

Some of the time I didn't feel ready, made mistakes, and was passed along anywho. It was disheartening. I've heard instructors use the phrase "I passed them to motivate them to continue." If you're there for the color of your belt rank - that's a great policy. Nobody in my school is rank motivated - and to do so would destroy the fundamental approach to learning my school has fostered.

Who cares how you felt? If you were there just to feel good then why listen to your instructor. You think you are the only student who has had these feelings. Every student goes through ups and downs. It is an integral part of the learning process. How you handle these feelings/mental tests shows me as an instructor which door to show you next!

Who benefits from the situation in the long term? I've signed my name to several promotion certificates that I was asked to sit on the board for that I felt didn't pass the formal test, but I was over ruled.

So then why sit on the test board if your opinion does not matter? Here is a political agenda, where someone wants to make their promotion board seem valid by a lot of seniors, but does not respect their opinion. This in a sense says they do not respect your rank/judgement. Seems to me like you were wasting your time.

If belts and diplomas really don't mean anything - how are you damaging something with no meaning?

This person will then tout that they represent me which does have meaning.

I made a response to the original posted question on page 1 about having to issue a specifically worded diploma that would be vastly different from my own student's diplomas. The wording on a diploma in this circumstance would have to read something about merely acknowledging the skill level of this person in writing, rather than actually promoting this person - because to issue a promotion would place them in my own lineage, and I'd only consider this kind of rank to be similar to a test I was on the board for, but not in charge of promotion for.

If you promote someone then you promote someone. You can't play the Texas two step and say, "you are promoted but I'm not responsible." If that's the case then just sell certificates on ebay

So when this person shows up to your class is everyone going to say, "Oh, he has a black belt on but its not really a black belt. You see, its a SPECIAL BELT that doesn't really mean the same as our OTHER BLACK BELTS" That I would like to see.

That is why your special certificate doesn't work! (Unless your going to give him a pink belt or something)


See above.

Great points made - I love discussions like these.

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts!!

 

[DArnold]

How so? The spirit of the original question is, Would you consider a non-linear path to rank promotion. The story regarding tellner's friend illustrates one example of such a non-linear, one-student-sticks-with-one-teacher, approach.

It has nothing to do with "Sticking with one instructors"

Two Kendo masters from feuding schools one day were walking down the same path toward each other.
When they came in range they both drew their swords expecting a dual to the death.
Upon moving around each other and studying each other for several seconds both masters sheathed their swords and bowed.
They both went on their way knowing that their would be no victory.

In the first example the question was asked.
In the second example the question was not asked.
One with true understanding would not need to ask the question!

This was understood by guess who....











a true instructor

 

[tellner]

As those that know much about the martial arts understand, your example and the question posed at the beginning are worlds apart.

Let's not play the dozens, alright? I've been around the block a couple times and am willing to believe the same about you.

The examples are not worlds apart. They are actually quite close. The things you consider indispensable are good rules of thumb for your organization. They don't always apply. Here is a case where they didn't apply. And here are a few more...

First, suppose there were a martial arts organization which had several schools and was more interested in consistency and standardization than in preserving each instructor's personal fiefdom. How might that work? Students could go to any club and keep their seniority and grading. If the next testing date were three weeks after they transferred they could take the test and get a new grading. Judo does an excellent job of this.

Second, there are the equivalent of field promotions. If someone demonstrates exceptional skill and understanding it is entirely possible that the teacher will say "Why don't you start coming to the advanced class? Putting you in with the beginners is a waste of your time and money." If someone new comes into a school where I'm teaching I'll check him out and see what he's got. If I were part of a system that uses the kyu/dan system I'd grade him accordingly so that he'd be where he's best suited.

Third, consider an analogy somewhat closer to the real world than the typical dojo - a university. Theoretically, you have to take every single required class to get a degree. But almost everywhere allows you to challenge courses. Sit the exam, pay a fee, get the credits. And most allow students to transfer credits in. Combine the two and you could spend relatively little time in the classroom and still have a perfectly legitimate diploma.

Fourth, I will be one member of a testing board in a few weeks. The poor S.O.B. - excuse me "humble postulant" - doesn't train with any of us. He has his own thing. We've agreed on a standard that he has to meet in a number of areas. This includes his own curriculum and a few things that each of us has come up with in order to push him in ways he's not expecting. If he can get through it we'll all sign a piece of paper saying that according to our best estimate he's a black belt with some serious chops. The piece of paper is backed by our collective reputation. Is it our right to say so? Certainly. Do all of us know him? No. Has he been our student? I already said he hasn't. Are we making money off this? Nope. This organization will never charge more than $20 for a black belt test. And we don't do student rankings.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts!!

Question - do you mean "observations" instead of "assumptions?" Assumptions is a conclusion drawn on semi-cogent principles. Observations are my own subjective analysis of what I've personally seen. Where are the assumptions? I'm just pointing out some opposing arguments. I think we're on the same page with most of the positions and points we've discussed.

The one part I feel clarification is needed here - regarding the customized diploma. It'd be worded specifically to state this is in X style, not MY system. The belt would be something different from what my students wear as well. No inference of knowledge in MY system whatsoever. There's no way in hell I'd issue said diploma to someone and then allow them later to join my regular classes with my regular students, without using the rank appropriate to their skill in the system I teach. That diploma wouldn't have any thing to do with my school, and I wouldn't let him participate in any of my regular classes while wearing it. We're on the same page - it's no different than selling certificates on Ebay. Same argument, different angles to get there. But for the record - if I make a certificate - and choose to sign it, I'm the only one who can say what I can and cannot do. (Not that I'd ever put myself in that position - as I said, this is all for the sake of discussion.)

Per my comment about moving on which you made reference to me being my own teacher - I specifically wrote the word "solely" in my statement to make known that while the instructor says I'm X level, if I feel I haven't really earned that yet, maybe I just had a really good day for the test, but I have a lot more of that material I'd rather work on, I'm not going to feel right wearing X belt. I want the knowledge, the strip of cloth is a strip of cloth.

Who cares how I felt? I DO. I'm the one that has to look at myself every morning while I shave. If my experience is cheapened by mcdojang tactics - I'm not going to enjoy or respect the "accomplishments."

 

[IWishToLearn]

First, suppose there were a martial arts organization which had several schools and was more interested in consistency and standardization than in preserving each instructor's personal fiefdom. How might that work? Students could go to any club and keep their seniority and grading. If the next testing date were three weeks after they transferred they could take the test and get a new grading. Judo does an excellent job of this.

Second, there are the equivalent of field promotions. If someone demonstrates exceptional skill and understanding it is entirely possible that the teacher will say "Why don't you start coming to the advanced class? Putting you in with the beginners is a waste of your time and money." If someone new comes into a school where I'm teaching I'll check him out and see what he's got. If I were part of a system that uses the kyu/dan system I'd grade him accordingly so that he'd be where he's best suited.

Third, consider an analogy somewhat closer to the real world than the typical dojo - a university. Theoretically, you have to take every single required class to get a degree. But almost everywhere allows you to challenge courses. Sit the exam, pay a fee, get the credits. And most allow students to transfer credits in. Combine the two and you could spend relatively little time in the classroom and still have a perfectly legitimate diploma.

Fourth, I will be one member of a testing board in a few weeks. The poor S.O.B. - excuse me "humble postulant" - doesn't train with any of us. He has his own thing. We've agreed on a standard that he has to meet in a number of areas. This includes his own curriculum and a few things that each of us has come up with in order to push him in ways he's not expecting. If he can get through it we'll all sign a piece of paper saying that according to our best estimate he's a black belt with some serious chops. The piece of paper is backed by our collective reputation. Is it our right to say so? Certainly. Do all of us know him? No. Has he been our student? I already said he hasn't. Are we making money off this? Nope. This organization will never charge more than $20 for a black belt test. And we don't do student rankings.

Great stuff. #4 is quite interesting, I'll get back to it with further thoughts.

 

[MBuzzy]

Here is a question to think about. This is a situation that I have been in myself.

Imagine if you moved and had to start at another school within your same style. But due to political differences, the school that you moved to won't recognize your rank from another school. You meet all of their standards for rank....but they don't like where your particular piece of paper came from. So they start you at white belt.

BUT - their organization also firmly believes that you should not teach someone anything above their belt level. Therefore - you are paying $XX per month to learn the exact same things that you have learned elsewhere because of a political agenda...but you can't advance your knowledge or understanding AT ALL at this school.

In my case, the instructor who refused to teach to my ability rather than rank, lost $XX per month and I found a new instructor. One who did not give me more rank....but DID teach me things.


Also, the original question said nothing about whether or not the person had trained on their own or with an instructor...only that they had trained for a long time. For all you know, they trained in Korea with a grandmaster - or out of a book.

The point is that it is all situational and up to the best judgement of the instructor. That is why instructors are there, to make those judgements.

 

[pstarr]

Nope - if they're not from my system, there's no way I'd promote anybody... If they had learned my system from someone, I might consider doing an evaluation - but they're not going to be tested right off the bat. I'll see where they're at insofar as skill and knowledge goes, and move from there.

 

[kidswarrior]

Here is a question to think about. This is a situation that I have been in myself.

Imagine if you moved and had to start at another school within your same style. But due to political differences, the school that you moved to won't recognize your rank from another school. You meet all of their standards for rank....but they don't like where your particular piece of paper came from. So they start you at white belt.

BUT - their organization also firmly believes that you should not teach someone anything above their belt level. Therefore - you are paying $XX per month to learn the exact same things that you have learned elsewhere because of a political agenda...but you can't advance your knowledge or understanding AT ALL at this school.

In my case, the instructor who refused to teach to my ability rather than rank, lost $XX per month and I found a new instructor. One who did not give me more rank....but DID teach me things.

And in my exsperience, much of the decision about who passes, who is ready, the critique during or after the test, the cost of the test, and many other things about testing in general, are made by a high(er) ranking belt or group who have come to believe their own press.

Also, the original question said nothing about whether or not the person had trained on their own or with an instructor...only that they had trained for a long time. For all you know, they trained in Korea with a grandmaster - or out of a book.

The point is that it is all situational and up to the best judgement of the instructor. That is why instructors are there, to make those judgements.

If only public education could find its way back to the same perpective. Maybe we teachers could teach again, instead of being test administrators for the bureaucrats (most of whom couldn't themselves pass the tests they're imposing).

Originally Posted by tellner

Second, there are the equivalent of field promotions....If someone new comes into a school where I'm teaching I'll check him out and see what he's got. If I were part of a system that uses the kyu/dan system I'd grade him accordingly so that he'd be where he's best suited.

I know of one regular poster on this boad who doesn't hold dan ranking, but obviously should. To me, this says some instructor is asleep at the wheel.

Third, consider an analogy somewhat closer to the real world than the typical dojo - a university. Theoretically, you have to take every single required class to get a degree. But almost everywhere allows you to challenge courses. Sit the exam, pay a fee, get the credits. And most allow students to transfer credits in. Combine the two and you could spend relatively little time in the classroom and still have a perfectly legitimate diploma.

I would say this example from the university is closely aligned with the concept from my earlier post #19.

 

[jks9199]

A few things...

To avoid some of the digressions about Eastern vs. Western philosophy, etc., I went back and looked at the original post again.

To summarize -- the person walks in, states that they have trained long and hard, but never had rank, and now desire ranking as a black belt. After an evaluation period, you realize that they have the skills to be a black belt.

OK... Let's think about ways this could happen.

The first way is the guy who made it all up as he went along, and now wants credit and recognition. He may or may not be a good fighter, skilled martial artist, and incredible athlete. There's no indication of his character (if that's important) other than the time and effort he expended. Would I sponsor and test him for black belt? NO. It's very unlikely that whatever he's invented/discovered/created will be consistent with the system I train & teach, so I can't assess it anymore than I could judge the literary merit of a novel written in Sanskrit.

The second way I can think of is someone who learned it all from books, magazines, or videos. Some of these people have done a great job; they've worked hard, and done their best. They probably need some refinement before they're-- but they also probably could be ranked more appropriately than white belt. After I've had a chance to work with them and assess their character (probably more than a few months)... I might sponsor them for black belt, if I can show that they meet the requirements.

The third way has two sides to it; they're both variants on breaking away from one source of formal training. The first variant is the person who trains in a style for some time, then has to stop formal training for some reason, like work or family demands, or the school just closes. They keep training and practicing, and maintain and even advance their skills on their own. The second is the person who splits for other reasons -- like political problems in their original school, or with the instructor. I'm going to need more details on why they split (for example, were they kicked out because they were committing robberies?) -- but I don't have a problem with this person testing within the same system.

There's a fourth way that I can see as well. That's a person who chooses to transition from a rankless system, like boxing/mixed martial arts, many traditional Chinese MA, or some people's JKD, to a system with ranks. That's really going to fall back to the first two situations; they probably don't know the precise principals of my system, but they probably are more advanced than a new student. They'd probably advance faster...

The bottom line is that this is a call that you'd have to make in light of your systems requirements and the individual involved. There's not a cut and dried answer. I could see having a panel of well-qualified instructors assess someone, as Tellner has described, to assess someone who has no formal ties or has done their own thing. They can assess the person, and decide that they have demonstrated sufficient skill and capability to be recognized as a black belt; it's a case of "like recognizing like" or mutual recognition.

 

[fireman00]

if they had the appropriate certificates from another school for each belt level I would ask them to perform each the form for each level, do some basic moves, go through two rounds of sparring and show some of their basic self defense moves.

They might have been able to pickup all the forms by going through a library of DVDs but they would most likely fail in the sparring and the self defense moves.

If he/she were able to demonstrate the skills of a black belt I would put them in a red belt class and have them test for black belt with no issues.

 

[IWishToLearn]

First, suppose there were a martial arts organization which had several schools and was more interested in consistency and standardization than in preserving each instructor's personal fiefdom. How might that work? Students could go to any club and keep their seniority and grading. If the next testing date were three weeks after they transferred they could take the test and get a new grading. Judo does an excellent job of this.

Whoo. Love the part about the personal fiefdom. Far, far too many instructors hold back students to protect their "fiefdoms". Gotta play up that card so I can feel important. Pfft. ESPECIALLY if you're transferring from say - one WTF school to another WTF school - the standards are supposed to be identical for belt requirements. (EXAMPLE people .)

Second, there are the equivalent of field promotions. If someone demonstrates exceptional skill and understanding it is entirely possible that the teacher will say "Why don't you start coming to the advanced class? Putting you in with the beginners is a waste of your time and money." If someone new comes into a school where I'm teaching I'll check him out and see what he's got. If I were part of a system that uses the kyu/dan system I'd grade him accordingly so that he'd be where he's best suited.

I'm in agreement if he came from a similar system to what I teach and train in. However, if he came from something completely different, he's got to understand the principles and concepts from Level 1 just like everyone else does, because the system is built on that foundation.

Third, consider an analogy somewhat closer to the real world than the typical dojo - a university. Theoretically, you have to take every single required class to get a degree. But almost everywhere allows you to challenge courses. Sit the exam, pay a fee, get the credits. And most allow students to transfer credits in. Combine the two and you could spend relatively little time in the classroom and still have a perfectly legitimate diploma.

I'm on the same page here - and I used that same analogy earlier.

Fourth, I will be one member of a testing board in a few weeks. The poor S.O.B. - excuse me "humble postulant" - doesn't train with any of us. He has his own thing. We've agreed on a standard that he has to meet in a number of areas. This includes his own curriculum and a few things that each of us has come up with in order to push him in ways he's not expecting. If he can get through it we'll all sign a piece of paper saying that according to our best estimate he's a black belt with some serious chops. The piece of paper is backed by our collective reputation. Is it our right to say so? Certainly. Do all of us know him? No. Has he been our student? I already said he hasn't. Are we making money off this? Nope. This organization will never charge more than $20 for a black belt test. And we don't do student rankings.

Same page here too, after I thought more about it. Obviously that piece of paper would be customized to fit the situation, no?

 

[Kacey]

How so? The spirit of the original question is, Would you consider a non-linear path to rank promotion. The story regarding tellner's friend illustrates one example of such a non-linear, one-student-sticks-with-one-teacher, approach.

I disagree - in the original question, a self-taught student approached an instructor and requested rank; in the second, a student who had trained with instructor(s) for years but never tested was awarded rank in the system he trained in by a senior instructor, for his demonstrated skill in that system. There is a 180 degree difference between asking for rank based on self-instruction and receiving unrequested rank as recognition of skill by someone within the style in which you train.

In Europe, you could receive knighthood one of two ways: it could be conferred as the final step in a formal training sequence, which included working your way up from page to squire to knight, and demonstrating your competence for the rank of knight, or you could be recognized by other knights as having demonstrated those skills on the battlefield, generally for service above and beyond the expectations. Either way, the rank was awarded by someone else who already held that rank, who determined that you were deserving, and who knew you - not because you asked for it.

Now, if someone were to come to my class and tell me that they had practiced TKD out of books and off CDs and thought they knew what they were doing... I would give them a white belt and tell them that they needed to show me what they knew. But as has been said, to have someone study independently and then request rank (something I have never done, and something my students don't do - they test when I say they are ready, not when they think they are) would be a slap in the face to all of my existing students. Is it possible that such a student could progress more quickly than white belts with no background in MA? Anything is possible. Is it likely? No, not for me.

 

[tellner]

Is it? All we know is what the original poster set out. The guy comes in. He has it down. He's got the skills. Maybe he got them training somewhere else. Perhaps he's a genius. Maybe he was at a very high level elsewhere and picked up the particular curriculum. If he's good enough and you feel comfortable enough with his character to lend him your good name what's the problem?

Here's another example. My old JKD teacher had a number of teaching credentials in FMA. When he started up with Guro Inosanto he didn't stay in the beginner's Kali class even though he hadn't done Inosanto-Lacoste blend. He picked up the particular form and technique pretty quickly and was made an instructor in that part of the curriculum very quickly. Guro Inosanto was comfortable with his character and quick mastery of the material. Since then he's taken up with a few famous escrimadors and gotten ranked by them. None of them has said "You haven't been with me
through twenty three separate student rank gradings. You must start at
the beginning grasshopper." All they cared about was that he wasn't
a criminal, that he had the skills, and that he could fight.

It didn't matter where he got them. He had them. And that is what was
important.

 

[DArnold]

Let's not play the dozens, alright? I've been around the block a couple times and am willing to believe the same about you.

The examples are not worlds apart. They are actually quite close. The things you consider indispensable are good rules of thumb for your organization. They don't always apply. Here is a case where they didn't apply. And here are a few more...

First, suppose there were a martial arts organization which had several schools and was more interested in consistency and standardization than in preserving each instructor's personal fiefdom. How might that work? Students could go to any club and keep their seniority and grading. If the next testing date were three weeks after they transferred they could take the test and get a new grading. Judo does an excellent job of this.

One, you can have standardization without removing the student/instructor relationship. But in your example it sounds like a sysem full of Ronin who can roam from class to class where they are responsible to no one, and no one is responsible for them or their learning.
Interesting, so then no one pushes them, or puts hurdels in front of them and forces them to learn things they either thought were not possible or did not want to face. Just sounds like PADI. Every time they wanted to test you just hop to the next class so you would not have to do what an instructor wanted you to do. And I immagine the testing requirements are all based on time or the number of classes you attended and nothing to do with your mental ability. With everything I have said there are so many questions/flaws with this example I have to make too many assumptions as to how this hypothetical system works that all the pro/con comments are hypothetical as well.

Second, there are the equivalent of field promotions. If someone demonstrates exceptional skill and understanding it is entirely possible that the teacher will say "Why don't you start coming to the advanced class? Putting you in with the beginners is a waste of your time and money." If someone new comes into a school where I'm teaching I'll check him out and see what he's got. If I were part of a system that uses the kyu/dan system I'd grade him accordingly so that he'd be where he's best suited.

Yes, which is the difference in the two situations. The second would be considered more of a field promotion. In the first example you would be promoting rank and status to someone you don't know.

(Akin to having somone on the field of battle who has: the same uniform, alot of hardware and ammunition. So you promote him not even knowing if he is on your side?? WOW).

The question is, would you grade him to black belt and you are saying you would place him based on his physical abilities, not even knowing what his mental abilities are. You do not learn about your students head in one testing.

Third, consider an analogy somewhat closer to the real world than the typical dojo - a university. Theoretically, you have to take every single required class to get a degree. But almost everywhere allows you to challenge courses. Sit the exam, pay a fee, get the credits. And most allow students to transfer credits in. Combine the two and you could spend relatively little time in the classroom and still have a perfectly legitimate diploma.

This is no where near the real world as: How many people have a degree that is useless, or that they never use? How much do you learn in college really prepares you for the world outside? Just because you have read a book on punching would hardly qualify you to opt out of training!

In one area of the martial arts a student shows you their mental ability of handling the tools they have learned by their physical performance: focus, technique, understanding.


However, this tells me nothing about the person: Would they beat up juniors, do they have the self control that would show me that I should teach them more (why would I want to put a gun/dangerious techniques in the hands of someone who can not controll the simplest of non-physical things: courtsey and self-controll?) Do they have indomitable spirit when it comes to the art or are they just rank hopping? This is why I say that the physical is only 50% of the art.

Also, with the amount of tools aquired from white to black, a complete testing of the physical would be impossible in one sitting.

A testing is more of a mental test of how a student will perform under pressure (similar to tournaments) and not a measure of their physical abilities.
The actual measurement takes place in class over time. Observed and forged by the relationship with their instructor. That is why an instructor puts a student up for testing. Nothing magical happens the day of testing. If the student has not learned what they need to know by testing then why would you put them up to test? So they could fail? Or you really don't care and you let them be the instructor and make the call. When you test you should be that rank, you are not achieving anything that day. You are just showing the world that you have learned it. But the call to promote a student is the call of the instructor based on what they have shown you over time. That they have earned the rank.

Your example above shows why many have problems with MA parents that they think by sitting on the side lines and listening to everything they know the Martial art. (Where most of the time they don't, but they are better grounded and see through the BS better than those involved :ultracool)


Fourth, I will be one member of a testing board in a few weeks. The poor S.O.B. - excuse me "humble postulant" - doesn't train with any of us. He has his own thing. We've agreed on a standard that he has to meet in a number of areas. This includes his own curriculum and a few things that each of us has come up with in order to push him in ways he's not expecting. If he can get through it we'll all sign a piece of paper saying that according to our best estimate he's a black belt with some serious chops. The piece of paper is backed by our collective reputation. Is it our right to say so? Certainly. Do all of us know him? No. Has he been our student? I already said he hasn't. Are we making money off this? Nope. This organization will never charge more than $20 for a black belt test. And we don't do student rankings.

"He has his own thing" And how do your students feel about outsiders "having their own thing" being promoted above what you teach them?

WOW, As you have no knowledge as to if this student is good or a jerk, good luck with throwing your reputation to the wind.
Thanks for the discourse
DAA

 

[DArnold]

Is it? All we know is what the original poster set out. The guy comes in. He has it down. He's got the skills. Maybe he got them training somewhere else. Perhaps he's a genius. Maybe he was at a very high level elsewhere and picked up the particular curriculum. If he's good enough and you feel comfortable enough with his character to lend him your good name what's the problem?

Here's another example. My old JKD teacher had a number of teaching credentials in FMA. When he started up with Guro Inosanto he didn't stay in the beginner's Kali class even though he hadn't done Inosanto-Lacoste blend. He picked up the particular form and technique pretty quickly and was made an instructor in that part of the curriculum very quickly. Guro Inosanto was comfortable with his character and quick mastery of the material. Since then he's taken up with a few famous escrimadors and gotten ranked by them. None of them has said "You haven't been with me
through twenty three separate student rank gradings. You must start at
the beginning grasshopper." All they cared about was that he wasn't
a criminal, that he had the skills, and that he could fight.

It didn't matter where he got them. He had them. And that is what was
important.

AHH HAAA,

Great point, you stated,

"...and you feel comfortable enough with his character..."

I would raise the question:

How/how long would it take you to learn if a person has good character. In many peoples disertation it seems as though this point is of no concern when as you say, "...lend him your good name..."

You second story was similar to my Kendo parable.
If some would like it in more simpler terms, experience will teach you what a white belt will do, it's not magic and by nature of the first question, it is obvious that this person is not Black belt caliber.

 

[MJS]

This is just a general question (not something that I am going through).

What would everyone here do if someone contacted you and said they had been training for a very long time and had all of the requirements down to perfection for the black belt test, but had never gotten any rank.

They come and train with you for a few months and you decide that person could pass the test. Would you test them for the rank and basically skip them over all belts (to black belt), make them start from white belt, or pick an intermediate belt and make them start from there?

AoG

There are a few questions that need to be answered. Is this person self taught or have they had training under an instructor? Is the training in the same art or something different? How much time have they spent with training?

These are just a few that come to mind. In any case, I'd have to say it would take longer than a few months before I'd just hand someone a BB. I would want them to be able to perform the material the way it is being taught by me.

That being said, no I would not test them and allow them to skip rank.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I disagree - in the original question, a self-taught student approached an instructor and requested rank; in the second, a student who had trained with instructor(s) for years but never tested was awarded rank in the system he trained in by a senior instructor, for his demonstrated skill in that system. There is a 180 degree difference between asking for rank based on self-instruction and receiving unrequested rank as recognition of skill by someone within the style in which you train.

IMHO, the OP was pretty vauge as it did not state if this person was self taught or if they had actually trained with someone. This was a question that I had asked in my post.

Mike

 

[Kacey]

IMHO, the OP was pretty vauge as it did not state if this person was self taught or if they had actually trained with someone. This was a question that I had asked in my post.

Mike

Well, yes and no... here's what he said:

What would everyone here do if someone contacted you and said they had been training for a very long time and had all of the requirements down to perfection for the black belt test, but had never gotten any rank.

Now, why would someone contact you and say they had been training for a long time and had all the requirements for black belt if that wasn't what the person wanted? I mean, if they wanted to train, all they would have to do is show up - as an instructor, I always ask if students have any previous knoweldge/experience, because even if it's a different style, people with training in other MAs generally understand things non-MAists don't, especially those that have never trained in any sport - body mechanics and how to control your own body being the key ones, IMHO - and honestly, I would expect someone solely self-trained, which is what this situation sounds like to me, to have some serious deficits (most people practice the things they like the most - and avoid the things they don't like) and some bad habits, which would make training longer and more difficult, habits being hard to break. But why show up and make a point of saying "I have all the skills needed to be a black belt" unless you were trying to attain that goal based on what you'd already done? And where and with whom (if anyone) has this person been training that s/he has no rank at all? If that's normal for your style - well and good - but even then, I would have doubts - but from the rest of the scenario, it doesn't sound like it is, or there wouldn't be a question about jumping the person past color belt ranks over students who have already been there some time.

They come and train with you for a few months and you decide that person could pass the test. Would you test them for the rank and basically skip them over all belts (to black belt), make them start from white belt, or pick an intermediate belt and make them start from there?

Now, as far as I'm concerned, this is a somewhat different situation... sort of. The person has now been your student for a few months, and you as the instructor now know more about him/her and his/her abilities. But even so, I, as an instructor, would not allow the person to go straight to BB... and I doubt I would allow the person to multi-test, either - see above for one reason why. Here's another: if you're truly that good, why do you need an instructor to tell you that? Learn an organization's rules, go to an open tournament, and determine for yourself - as you've done with all of your learning to that point - how you compare. Compete in forms, sparring, and self-defense and see if how you do compared to the other competitors. But the only reason I can see to go to an instructor and claim BB level skills is if you expect to be given a BB for those skills, or to skip the time and effort that other students put in to reach that level.

Ability is not everything - in many cases, it is the smallest piece. Some people are naturally athletic - and in my experience, they tend not to stick around past the middle color belt ranks, because that's where natural athleticism stops conferring a significant advantage, and the requirements become more technical and nit-picky; people who have worked hard begin to see the pay-off, and people who have coasted to that point suddenly finding themselves having to work to improve - and the latter group are much more likely to drop out than the former group; at least, that's what I've seen for myself. And I find it much more likely that someone in the latter group would be the person in this scenario.

As an instructor, I have a responsibility to teach my students how and when to use the skills I've taught them - I couldn't be sure the person in this scenario would know that at the level I expect from a BB, and that would be much more of a concern for me than would the physical ability alone.