Dumping the Dan System

[philwhite44 1]

Back in the 90s, my Mom entered a tournament with an intermediate belt. There was a woman who was a black belt who had never won a gold medal, so she put on an intermediate belt and competed. What she lacked in technique or precision she made up in power, leaving multiple women in the bracket with contusions or other injuries to their legs.

My Mom never competed again after that.

It's definitely something that can affect a TKD tournament.

Being someone who is 5'3" on a good day and 140 lbs, I have never fought someone smaller than me in competition. I usually fight people that outweight me considerably and have a significant height advantage. Competitions, like genetics, are not always fair.

In my last tournament, I competed less than a month after hernia surgery and hadn't competed in 5 years. I almost won my first fight too. I was kind of bummed because of the rules however I could have probably have changed the outcome slightly by circling to the other side of the ring or fighting southpaw. I was unfortunately to the left of the center so he saw my full front side and my opponent's back side. So points were logically easier to call for my opponent. Again it may not have been fair but it is what it is.

I also fought a high ranked mens NASKA fighter around 2018. I think he was #1 in tournament points at the time. He used to be in my old dojo. He kicked my butt but was nice about not smashing me. It was a good learning experience. Again I was a much smaller fighter. He was able to use his height to easily keep his kicks high and in my face. I did not have the size/strength to win clashes.

I only regret one tounament where a size difference landed me in urgent care for a concussion. Someone much larger than me decided they needed to hit harder than they should. I must have blocked with my face at that point to. It was a bad outcome.

I think this strayed from the topic at hand though. If we are relating belts to competition there is usually only one level in competition for black belts except at very large tournaments where they may do weight classes, ranked vs non ranked, or age. You don't compete as a second or third dan. Once you are a black belt, that is what you are. I like that aspect.

 

[Rich Parsons61 2]

Has anyone here dumped the dan system from their school making black belt their top belt. No stripes. As a new school start up this is what we are planning on doing. I'm trying to remove some of the layers of politics belts create. I also feel like as a small family based school, this better fits our identity. I've gone back and forth on this idea a few times but I think its the right one. I'm sure some rank chasers may feel like we're not for them but I'm hoping those who enjoy what we do decide its a good decision.

1. Do you keep people past black belt?
a. If you do then what is their motivation?
b. If not then is it because they grow up and go to college or something else?

2. Is it politics with your larger organization?
a. Like asking for money per student?
b. Or piece of the testing fees et al.
c. One can go independent and promote up to under their rank. And most people would not care or respect that mindset.

3. If it is politics within the school
a. Is it an older technically sound coach / instructor who teaches well, yet does not fight or spar as well as the teenagers or early twenties?
b. If so then have the hard talk with those causing the politics if they are black belt about how Rank is Rank. If you want to not listen or disagree with them, then learn more and get that rank.
c. Or, tell them there are both teaching and sparring levels.
e.g. A system that ranks learning the physical moves first and then the next series of ranks or levels are for the instruction of those technical levels.
Black belt could be the end for the technical and everything after that would be teaching.
and yelling louder and going faster is not the best way to get the student engaged and learning. Many younger people make this mistake.

 

[philwhite44 1]

1. Do you keep people past black belt?

Hopefully. What fills my cup may be differnt thatn what fills theirs.

a. If you do then what is their motivation?

For under 15 its a jr. black belt so there is there is a longer path for youths. We plan on using other factors as motivation as well to recognize and reward long term members.

b. If not then is it because they grow up and go to college or something else?

This happens a lot regardless. I had to stop for a bit for this reason.

2. Is it politics with your larger organization?
a. Like asking for money per student?
b. Or piece of the testing fees et al.
c. One can go independent and promote up to under their rank. And most people would not care or respect that mindset.

I moved to another state where my old school doesn't operate. Their belt system was maintained under their authority. If you aren't payng and going to classes there, you're done. Also I want to break away for personal reasons. I want my school to be my own, not someone else's.

I think there was another good conversation on this board about most material after black is essentially the same with new forms, etc. I found that true in my classes at my old school as well. We did not have black belt only classes where we learned new techniques.

I also get people like stripes. Like I said I would be promoting people above my level at some point if I used the dan system or just buying into someone else's association to advance my rank to continue on. I feel like that is a weird situation and I'd rather avoid it. I feel like my skills are very good and I can definitely teach to my level. It is my happy medium.

 

[skribs114 134]

Being someone who is 5'3" on a good day and 140 lbs, I have never fought someone smaller than me in competition. I usually fight people that outweight me considerably and have a significant height advantage. Competitions, like genetics, are not always fair.

In my last tournament, I competed less than a month after hernia surgery and hadn't competed in 5 years. I almost won my first fight too. I was kind of bummed because of the rules however I could have probably have changed the outcome slightly by circling to the other side of the ring or fighting southpaw. I was unfortunately to the left of the center so he saw my full front side and my opponent's back side. So points were logically easier to call for my opponent. Again it may not have been fair but it is what it is.

I also fought a high ranked mens NASKA fighter around 2018. I think he was #1 in tournament points at the time. He used to be in my old dojo. He kicked my butt but was nice about not smashing me. It was a good learning experience. Again I was a much smaller fighter. He was able to use his height to easily keep his kicks high and in my face. I did not have the size/strength to win clashes.

I only regret one tounament where a size difference landed me in urgent care for a concussion. Someone much larger than me decided they needed to hit harder than they should. I must have blocked with my face at that point to. It was a bad outcome.

I think this strayed from the topic at hand though. If we are relating belts to competition there is usually only one level in competition for black belts except at very large tournaments where they may do weight classes, ranked vs non ranked, or age. You don't compete as a second or third dan. Once you are a black belt, that is what you are. I like that aspect.

Most competitions, especially in high levels of competition, have weight classes for a reason.

 

[Flying Crane]

Those people will continue training even if they received a congratulatory slap across the face for passing a grade! It’s those who are teetering and children who I think the coloured belt system may encourage.

The belt system as a whole can be a source of motivation. Lots of us can use some motivation and inspiration now and again. But once you reach a certain level, black belt for example, you should be able to motivate yourself to continue training, and not need a new colored stripe on the end of your belt.

A bit like a ‘menkyo kaiden’

I don’t know much about that, but in so far as I understand it, yes, there might be similarities.

“Here’s a teaching rank that allows you to pay for the privilege of teaching, stop you from training yourself and cause irritation when the students repeat the same mistakes over and over because they don’t practise between classes.”

I’m not sure where this comes from. Are you implying that a newly minted instructor is then used by the school owner to do all the teaching, while still paying fees?

Unethical folks are everywhere and everyone needs to look out for themselves, that they don’t get used by such people. A new instructor could simply walk away and open his own school, with no need to answer back to his teacher, especially if his teacher is being unethical.

I think training duration and intensity (‘depth of practise’) is a more important criteria for teaching ability. I once asked a teacher how I might prevent my knee sliding here doing this when I had to do that. He said “Just stop doing it” He had no idea how to advise except with that unhelpful piece of advice. On asking an experienced teaching he looked at my performance and said, “Ah…I can see it the set up issue two moves before the issue presents. Try doing x, y, z.”

Nothing says a new teacher has to leave the school and go out in his own. He could stay and continue to train with his teacher, assuming his teacher has a depth of experience and knowledge to make it worth while. Obviously people can decide amongst themselves how the relationship moves forward, or not.

It’s how every major association is structure. It’s far from perfect, like democracy, and hobbles along with issues splits etc from time to time, but we’ve seen how the alternatives do!

The alternatives that I have experienced have worked extremely well. Most of my history in training has been in non-belted systems, without any large organizational oversight. It can be excellent.

Yes indeed, but how do you gain that confidence without years and years of association with them?

The teacher makes his assessment when he feels the student is ready to step up and carry that responsibility and that privilege. That is a judgement call. There ought to be enough years to make the assessment. And as I have suggested above, nothing says the new instructor has to then leave the school, if continuing to train there would be fruitful.

None of this is difficult. Systems and schools that do not use a belt manage to function perfectly well in this way.

 

[philwhite44 1]

Most competitions, especially in high levels of competition, have weight classes for a reason.

There are very few weight classes in sport karate. I think the divide at my age is something like above/below 180 or 200 in the larger tournaments. Last open tournament I did had no weight classes. Often times they combine classes if there are not enough competitors. For rated competitors I think they do 3 classes for NASKA but I haven’t done one of their tournaments in a few years so it could have changed.

 

[skribs114 134]

There are very few weight classes in sport karate. I think the divide at my age is something like above/below 180 or 200 in the larger tournaments. Last open tournament I did had no weight classes. Often times they combine classes if there are not enough competitors. For rated competitors I think they do 3 classes for NASKA but I haven’t done one of their tournaments in a few years so it could have changed.

I think Karate's an outlier here, maybe Sumo as well. Taekwondo, boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA, wrestling, Judo, BJJ...all of these have weight classes.

 

[HighKick]

When I was in karate at my old school we had like 12 color belts. I believe they have added a few since then. They also created a secondary system with stars for black belts. There was a reason for this many belts/stars. It was to make money, not martial artists. We have 8 total belts (including black) and no testing fees.

I'm not reinventing the wheel, just changing how someone gets from point a to b. The techniques are the same. Standards may be slightly different. I feel its a fair approach. Again how long someone takes to get from white to black is largely dependent on committment. If someone went to every class and put in a little extra effort it may take 4 years. Someone else could be more casual and take 7.

***We have been without internet for 3-days so I am writing this from my phone. Be prepared for lots of typos.***
I have been a school (2) owner for 42-years and have funded over a dozen startups in four (4) states, have taught both classes and seminars in the 48 contiguous States and three other countries, so I feel I have some experience to speak to the matter.

I read through the entire thread before responding. I am inserting my comments here because it seems to fit.
There have been some solid responses and some Way out in left field ones as well.

Not from the beginning (whenever/where ever that was) but some form of belt system has been around longer than most currently organized styles have been. It was a simple system used for organizational purposes. At some point instructors realized they were a great motivational tool. This is when they became the proverbial ’carrot’. This is also when things started going Really sideways.
I fully agree it is way out of hand, so much so that stars, stripes, and ‘intermediate test’ are fully accepted as the norm.
And schools that market “become a black belt in X years” is prevalent.
It is fully saturated in the marketing curve and is now creating a negative effect for most people.
So, what should someone wanting to start a school do? KISS it. Keep it simple and go back to the base belt progression. Nine (9) color belts and nine (9) black belts. Be an active, engaged teacher so that people Fully understand where they are in their training, what they need to work more on and WHY. Make it imminently clear from jump that not everyone will rank up at every testing, and create an environment where that is okay. Nothing is more refreshing than having a student come up and say they are not ready to test. A motivation of its own.
It is especially important for parents to understand this. It is a simple matter of explaining how everyone learns differently and at different paces. I am an EE PhD and MSEM, so I often use it in my explanation to people. I am immensely thankful that all engineers or journeymen can ‘fail’ (I know, a taboo word nowadays) or be held back in their certification. Lives are truly on the line based on the quality of their work. I try very hard to set a similar gauge in class.

I don’t know when belts became ‘automatic’ as that was never the original intention. And this is VERY important, people can be behind OR ahead of the curve, for a number of reasons that carry true weight. Holding someone back is just as bad as promoting someone who is not ready.

People are trying WAY too hard to create a concrete , infallible, written process for belt ranking process, when in reality, one Doesn’t nor should ever exist. This onus is on the instructor. Hard stop. It is Your liability, credibility, and reputation on the line. Plain and simple. People test when They Are Ready. Plain and simple.
The rest is just noise and trivialities used to suck people into the all too common money grabs.
Be a for profit school that makes your money from the product on the mat, not from predetermined timeframes.

I have to drive 45-miles on a literal sheet of ice to help a customer now. I will try to add to my comments.

 

[jks919987 11]

What does a belt mean? What does a numbered rank mean?

It's all school and program dependent, even in large systems. Who hasn't seen someone from a large organization with a given belt that didn't move as well as much lower belts from a different school in that same program.

I've heard in some traditional Japanese jujitsu lines, a white belt is a beginner. A green belt has learned to fall well enough that you can be pretty free in throwing them. A brown belt has ukemi down, and is starting to understand how to throw you, too... Black belts are playmates -- skilled at both falling and throwing. (My paraphrase of a comment someone made, so errors are mine...)

So... do what you want. Regarding sandbagging in tournaments... Our first instructor would give his original students a black belt when they arrived at the tournament, and then collect it back when they left. They never fought as anything other than black belts... even if they only had 6 months training.

 

[Buka30 4]

Has anyone here dumped the dan system from their school making black belt their top belt. No stripes. As a new school start up this is what we are planning on doing. I'm trying to remove some of the layers of politics belts create. I also feel like as a small family based school, this better fits our identity. I've gone back and forth on this idea a few times but I think its the right one. I'm sure some rank chasers may feel like we're not for them but I'm hoping those who enjoy what we do decide its a good decision.

As long as they’re learning and training I think it’s fine. Give it a shot and see how it goes.
As for rank chasers, I always provided a list of all the dojos in the surrounding area for them.

Best wishes going forward, philwhite.

 

[Buka30 4]

It's possible...but then you run into a few issues.

1. If black belt takes a short time to get to (let's say 3 years), then there isn't much to separate the students from the Masters or Professors or whatever you call them in your system. A TKD Master is usually 4th or 5th degree, which can take 8-12 years minimum (or more) to get to. A BJJ Professor is a black belt, which also typically takes that long or longer. I generally equate a TKD black belt to an Associate's degree, where a TKD 4th degree or a BJJ black belt would be more like a doctorate. How do you differentiate between an associate's and a PHD?
2. If black belt takes a long time to get to, (let's say 12 years), then you're just shifting the problem down. There will be politics in the red or brown belt. There will be politics between the black belts. It's just not going to get rid of the black belt.

I say that, and then I say this: for me personally, in a similar position as you (close to opening my school, without a high dan rank or a path to get one), I'm considering making 4th degree the highest in my system. At least for now. If more come later, then I will adapt. But for now the simple solution is to make it so 4th degree is the cap.

So I'm kind of doing the same thing you are thinking of.

I just thought of another thing to add to scenario 1 above. A lot of folks quit at the first goalpost. This is black belt in TKD or blue belt in BJJ (which are roughly similar in how long it takes to get and what it means to people within the art). Having another goalpost is a good way to keep folks motivated.

Goals are good things to have. Motivation is a good thing to have.

 

[Buka30 4]

***We have been without internet for 3-days so I am writing this from my phone. Be prepared for lots of typos.***
I have been a school (2) owner for 42-years and have funded over a dozen startups in four (4) states, have taught both classes and seminars in the 48 contiguous States and three other countries, so I feel I have some experience to speak to the matter.

I read through the entire thread before responding. I am inserting my comments here because it seems to fit.
There have been some solid responses and some Way out in left field ones as well.

Not from the beginning (whenever/where ever that was) but some form of belt system has been around longer than most currently organized styles have been. It was a simple system used for organizational purposes. At some point instructors realized they were a great motivational tool. This is when they became the proverbial ’carrot’. This is also when things started going Really sideways.
I fully agree it is way out of hand, so much so that stars, stripes, and ‘intermediate test’ are fully accepted as the norm.
And schools that market “become a black belt in X years” is prevalent.
It is fully saturated in the marketing curve and is now creating a negative effect for most people.
So, what should someone wanting to start a school do? KISS it. Keep it simple and go back to the base belt progression. Nine (9) color belts and nine (9) black belts. Be an active, engaged teacher so that people Fully understand where they are in their training, what they need to work more on and WHY. Make it imminently clear from jump that not everyone will rank up at every testing, and create an environment where that is okay. Nothing is more refreshing than having a student come up and say they are not ready to test. A motivation of its own.
It is especially important for parents to understand this. It is a simple matter of explaining how everyone learns differently and at different paces. I am an EE PhD and MSEM, so I often use it in my explanation to people. I am immensely thankful that all engineers or journeymen can ‘fail’ (I know, a taboo word nowadays) or be held back in their certification. Lives are truly on the line based on the quality of their work. I try very hard to set a similar gauge in class.

I don’t know when belts became ‘automatic’ as that was never the original intention. And this is VERY important, people can be behind OR ahead of the curve, for a number of reasons that carry true weight. Holding someone back is just as bad as promoting someone who is not ready.

People are trying WAY too hard to create a concrete , infallible, written process for belt ranking process, when in reality, one Doesn’t nor should ever exist. This onus is on the instructor. Hard stop. It is Your liability, credibility, and reputation on the line. Plain and simple. People test when They Are Ready. Plain and simple.
The rest is just noise and trivialities used to suck people into the all too common money grabs.
Be a for profit school that makes your money from the product on the mat, not from predetermined timeframes.

I have to drive 45-miles on a literal sheet of ice to help a customer now. I will try to add to my comments.

So many great points in that post.

 

[Buka30 4]

What does a belt mean? What does a numbered rank mean?

It's all school and program dependent, even in large systems. Who hasn't seen someone from a large organization with a given belt that didn't move as well as much lower belts from a different school in that same program.

I've heard in some traditional Japanese jujitsu lines, a white belt is a beginner. A green belt has learned to fall well enough that you can be pretty free in throwing them. A brown belt has ukemi down, and is starting to understand how to throw you, too... Black belts are playmates -- skilled at both falling and throwing. (My paraphrase of a comment someone made, so errors are mine...)

So... do what you want. Regarding sandbagging in tournaments... Our first instructor would give his original students a black belt when they arrived at the tournament, and then collect it back when they left. They never fought as anything other than black belts... even if they only had 6 months training.

What does a belt mean? What does a numbered rank mean?

It's all school and program dependent, even in large systems. Who hasn't seen someone from a large organization with a given belt that didn't move as well as much lower belts from a different school in that same program.

I've heard in some traditional Japanese jujitsu lines, a white belt is a beginner. A green belt has learned to fall well enough that you can be pretty free in throwing them. A brown belt has ukemi down, and is starting to understand how to throw you, too... Black belts are playmates -- skilled at both falling and throwing. (My paraphrase of a comment someone made, so errors are mine...)

So... do what you want. Regarding sandbagging in tournaments... Our first instructor would give his original students a black belt when they arrived at the tournament, and then collect it back when they left. They never fought as anything other than black belts... even if they only had 6 months training.

I like what your first instructor did, brother. I did that with a few of my guys as well.

 

[skribs114 134]

Goals are good things to have. Motivation is a good thing to have.

One of the toughest things I'm finding during my planning stages is how to set enough goals to keep people motivated, but not so many goals that they become worthless.

If I had 5 evaluation periods that took 10 years to get through, people would get bored before getting to the first one at the 2-year mark. But if I had 70 belts (every color of belt with a two-tone of every other color) and each belt had 6 stripes that you basically got a stripe every class...well then those would be pretty meaningless too.

 

[BorntoRaiseHell]

A Black belt is just a means to an end..

 

[gspell68]

Also when I mention MA politics... A lot of schools hold students in limbo for years by dangling belts infront of them. Brown belt limbo is definitely a thing and it happens at black belt as well. By withholding a belt, instructors string along people for indefinite timeframes. There are a lot of opportunities for manipulation and it’s unfortunate.

That’s kinda how I originally felt when I started karate.
It probably took me four or five years to make black belt.
But I realized later that my instructor, who was only a first degree black belt himself, just wanted to be certain that I was good enough since I would be the first person he ever coached to the black belt level.

Once I made black belt, that’s when I stopped caring about rank and started learning karate.
I’m going to the Philippines tomorrow and I’m planning to train with the JKA school there if I have time.
I am a brown belt in that organization, so I’ll tie one on to train with them, even though when I last trained heavily in any karate, I would guess I would’ve been at a sandan (third-degree BB) level.

I had to swap to an Okinawan style when I was stationed in a Shotokan desert back in the 1990’s.
It didn’t hurt my feelings at all to strap on a white belt and start over.
Every three or four months, the instructor would just toss me a new colored belt at the beginning of class, no testing involved.
But, I do understand the incentive of colored belt ranks whenever someone starts their martial arts journey.

Once you’ve been doing martial arts for a while, you can almost literally tell if a person has black belt level martial arts training by the way they walk and carry themselves.
I’ve met two JKA school trained instructors that I didn’t know, but just by how they walked, I knew they were on another level.

 

[BorntoRaiseHell]

but just by how they walked, I knew they were on another level.

Like John Wayne?

 

[HighKick]

Goals are good things to have. Motivation is a good thing to have.

I would say motivation trumps everything else.

 

[Buka30 4]

One of the toughest things I'm finding during my planning stages is how to set enough goals to keep people motivated, but not so many goals that they become worthless.

If I had 5 evaluation periods that took 10 years to get through, people would get bored before getting to the first one at the 2-year mark. But if I had 70 belts (every color of belt with a two-tone of every other color) and each belt had 6 stripes that you basically got a stripe every class...well then those would be pretty meaningless too.

I don’t think there’s a “one size fits all” answer to this. People like to be part of a group. But all people are different, sometimes
vastly different.

We have to make them want to come to the dojo (or gym). Make them comfortable with the other people there, including those that are teaching. Advancing in rank is part of that, but I think there’s too much emphasis on that in a lot of dojos I’ve been in.

You can’t train everyone the exact same way. Not only are their physical skills different, their backgrounds and personalities are different. It’s actually easier with a large group than it is with a small group. Because you can use the group to take rookies under their wing.

You have to acknowledge, help, entertain and use positive reinforcement to reach them all.
And make them work their butts off at the same time. To me, the best motivation you can give a non athletic person is to help them get in shape that they didn’t think possible.

 

[skribs114 134]

I don’t think there’s a “one size fits all” answer to this. People like to be part of a group. But all people are different, sometimes
vastly different.

We have to make them want to come to the dojo (or gym). Make them comfortable with the other people there, including those that are teaching. Advancing in rank is part of that, but I think there’s too much emphasis on that in a lot of dojos I’ve been in.

You can’t train everyone the exact same way. Not only are their physical skills different, their backgrounds and personalities are different. It’s actually easier with a large group than it is with a small group. Because you can use the group to take rookies under their wing.

You have to acknowledge, help, entertain and use positive reinforcement to reach them all.
And make them work their butts off at the same time. To me, the best motivation you can give a non athletic person is to help them get in shape that they didn’t think possible.

I think what happens a lot in these discussions is people tend to think those discussing the belts are only focused on the belts. There's the how you get the belt, the real meat of the training, which is hard to define. Especially in writing. It's what I do day-in and day-out as I'm coaching, the ideas and processes that I'm refining on the mats. My future belt system is something that I can't refine in someone else's school, so that's why it gets a lot of my attention when I'm not on the mats, and why it gets a lot of discussion on this board.