Ranking systems

[Chitmunk]

Just throwing this out there.

What are your views on ranking systems?

First you have your traditional ranking system: You recieve your belt when you start training, never wash it, and when you have trained enough it is black from all the blood sweat and tears.

Then you have the common ranking system used most often today. gain a new color belt after you have mastered a certain set of techniques.

Or the No rank system, you train, and if you can beat that guy who is really good it shows how much you have learned. This system is most used in contact sports like wrestling, and boxing.

Just looking for opinions is all.

 

[tshadowchaser]

First you have your traditional ranking system: You receive your belt when you start training, never wash it, and when you have trained enough it is black from all the blood sweat and tears.

That is an old wives tale

hen you have the common ranking system used most often today. gain a new color belt after you have mastered a certain set of techniques.

Most schools (at least in the USA) use this system as it shows progress to the individual. Also it brings in a lot of money in many schools\

Or the No rank system, you train, and if you can beat that guy who is really good it shows how much you have learned. This system is most used in contact sports like wrestling, and boxing.

It may be good for those two but without full contact matches to a knock out it would not be useful in most schools today. Still it might keep out some of the people with no real knowledge or talent that but their rank or those that print it on their own computer

 

[MJS]

Just throwing this out there.

What are your views on ranking systems?

First you have your traditional ranking system: You recieve your belt when you start training, never wash it, and when you have trained enough it is black from all the blood sweat and tears.

Then you have the common ranking system used most often today. gain a new color belt after you have mastered a certain set of techniques.

Or the No rank system, you train, and if you can beat that guy who is really good it shows how much you have learned. This system is most used in contact sports like wrestling, and boxing.

Just looking for opinions is all.

All of the systems that I train in use a belt ranking method. The belt is, IMO, a visual example of where someone stands. If you see a yellow belt, its pretty safe to assume that the person is a beginner, vs. if you saw a brown belt, you'd know that they were in the upper ranks.

Of course, just because someone is wearing a belt, its not always the best way to judge their skill. I've seen some wearing intermediate to advanced ranks, yet watching them do their material, I have to question why they're wearing that rank.

For me, I really don't care if the art uses belts or not. What matters most to me, and this is something that I've said countless times, is how well they can apply the material, how well they understand the material, how well they can teach it to others. IMHO, that is what matters most.

 

[terryl965]

The first one is a old wise tale, so lets leave that one alone.


Well the second one is a way for people to see progession, here in the west most people need something saying they are learning. It is a sad fact but still it is one.


The days of challanges are over with so that is gone like the wind, just a whisper every now andthen from one of us old timers.


On a side note the belt does not mean a thing if the knowledge is not there. I have trained with people for thirty years and all they wear is some sweat pants a nd a old ripped T-shirt and yet they can beat the living crap out of most people. A B.B. is not even close to what is was thirty years ago, times have changed and will continue to do so.

 

[stickarts]

the belt ranks work fine for me as a way to offer visible recognition as well as tracking progress of the students. A teacher can take a quick look at a student and get a rough idea where they stand in the whole scheme of our curriculum. While ranking is an honor, I also think we should control it, and it should not control us, ( meaning that the person makes the rank, the rank does not make the person) I use it as a tool to help make our school more organized and as a positive motivator.

 

[bowser666]

Belt rankings work fine for me. It is a easier way to track a students progress and to remember their level and skill set. I personally do not know how they could keep track of 50+ students and all their skill sets without getting semi-complicated. Yes it is also a revenue generator as well, but I feel that if you are taking the Sifu's time and instructors time for almost 2 hours, then its worth it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Or the No rank system, you train, and if you can beat that guy who is really good it shows how much you have learned. This system is most used in contact sports like wrestling, and boxing.

And many Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Systems but you do not necessarily have to go beat the other guy to prove anything. It is all up to your Sifu.

 

[Twin Fist]

when my students start, they dont get a Gi or belt. They have to earn those.

After that, it is a standard 10 kyu/10 dan belt system

 

[chinto01]

I keep hearing that one about you getting a white belt and it turning black over time then from black to white again but I have yet to see anyone doing that. Anyhow I use the system that my teacher uses white,green,brown,black.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Lynne]

Belts also engender respect. I have respect for anyone who receives a higher belt than what they have. It means they earned it. I respect that.

 

[shihansmurf]

i use a belt system with my students because it breaks the material down into easier to manage parcels. It also has the added benefit of giving the student a visual "reward" for their accomplishment in the art.

Mark

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just throwing this out there.

Not a problem, just replying back.

What are your views on ranking systems?

I think they can be useful. I train and teach in two systems. One uses rank and the other does not. I see both sides.

First you have your traditional ranking system: You recieve your belt when you start training, never wash it, and when you have trained enough it is black from all the blood sweat and tears.

May I ask what tradition you speak of? I have not seen any proof or stories to show this to be even remotely true. Just a story told to beginners to help keep them in the dark and believing the myth(s).

Then you have the common ranking system used most often today. gain a new color belt after you have mastered a certain set of techniques.

I would say learned not mastered. But that is just me. And I would refer to this as more traditional in the belt systems.

Or the No rank system, you train, and if you can beat that guy who is really good it shows how much you have learned. This system is most used in contact sports like wrestling, and boxing.

Well as long as people use the same rules the no rank system works with the competition. But if there is no direct competition or better yet X bets Y and Y bets Z and Z bets X so now we know who is the best right?

No I am confused, as why does it matter on who is the best? Be it rank or be it no rank and in the ring.

I could also defend myself before my training began, but that does not mean I know anything about an art of I can beat a person of a certain rank within an art. So, how does my beating him show anything about my skill sets within the art the other person trains is for that matter any art? It does not. What happens if a freak accident happens and I catch the person just right and the fall down and knock themselves out. Does this mean I win? Yes it most likely does as they cannot continue, but does it mean I was the better person? I am not so sure about that.

And let us look at the case where I give it my all and they give it their all and I win. It does not mean I am better than them all the time, only that I was better than them on those specific minutes our lives intersected.

Just looking for opinions is all.

Opinions are good, but show the facts and data.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Amercians love the grading system, we all love to see ourselve making progress...hense the color rankings is so popular here...

Off course the purpose is to monitor each individual progress of learning.

Today the acheivement of Black Color belts....has less meaning today...because it is NOT base on Fighting skills like the old days....it is just base in each individual programs like a elementary school, to high school and college degrees.....anyone can earn a promotion...some with C's and other's with B's and few with A's

A few arts like Judo...boxing....it is your skills that promote you! Actully accompisments(oops) in the ring or mat! ...that promote you..

Today many students can be consider ...C rated black belts...B rated and A rated......

Anyone can get a mechanic degree....not all of them will be an expert?

Same with a black belt today....not all will be true experts?

Just my thought on this....Aloha

 

[Chitmunk]

Thank you all, this is becoming a good discussion.
Because of my bad tendency to not be able to stay with one art for very long I have actually been trained under all three systems (yes, even the non-washed white belt in one of the Aikido schools I attended). Personally I am partial to the no rank system, I guess that is because of my background in contact sports. Just train your hardest with anyone who will train with you in preperation for an upcoming event.

All three systems have their advantages and disadvantages, I don't believe any one system to be better than another. If anyone has been trained under a different system that I do not mention please throw it out there, I would be interested in learning something new.

Please keep posting, the opinions of others are important. Again, thank you for your thoughts.

 

[potterfan77]

It is my experience that the belt ranking system is the most common system world wide, not just here in the west. I have also learned that it doesn't always matter what color your belt but how well you know and can execute the tools you have when you need them. I have seen quite a few black belts that don't have good technique and aren't able to give you any history about their particular style/styles. It has become all about the money with some people and so they don't produce the level of martial artist that they are getting payed for. Sometimes the more ranks you have to go through the more money you will be paying.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Belt ranking has it's place in the martial arts but as of late I have seen more and more tournament directors arrange the competition ( for under black) by how long a person has studied. The feeling seems to be that because no two schools rank the same way that competitors should be paired by length of study, for that may give a better indication of their skill level.

 

[shihansmurf]

Belt ranking has it's place in the martial arts but as of late I have seen more and more tournament directors arrange the competition ( for under black) by how long a person has studied. The feeling seems to be that because no two schools rank the same way that competitors should be paired by length of study, for that may give a better indication of their skill level.

That's a neat idea. What are the rough divisions? Something like 0-1 year Beginner, 1-3 years intermediate, 4-5 years advanced, and over five Black belt? Perhaps it is determined by the number of mat hours?
If you get a chance would you please post more info on this. I have considered putting on a tourney in the next couple of years and I think that this idea has merit.

Thanks
Mark

 

[tshadowchaser]

The last few I have been at went something like this:

Beginner up to 6 months

Intermediate 6 months to a year

Advanced 1 year to 2 years

Super advanced 2 years to 4 years if a person had studied ore than 4 years and was not a black belt the director and the instructor figured out where to put the person

Black belt by age under 8, 8-12, 13-16, 16-18. 18-30, 30 and above ( that stinks because they had no 40, 50 or 60+ categories)

One had a height requirement for black belts also: anyone under 5’5’’ , 5’6’’ to 6’, 6’ and above

The only other change I remember was a tournament a while ago that simply had weight categories under 100, 100-140, 140- 160, 160- 180, 180-200, 200-250, and the BIG PEROPLE category


Hope that helps a little

 

[Kacey]

My only concern with a time-in-grade belt ranking system is that there are so many people who just show up and never learn anything... they would be ranked under this type of system. We have a minimum time line for each rank (3 months for gup ranks, 6 months from 1st gup to I Dan, 2 years from I Dan to II Dan, 3 years to III Dan, etc.) - although plenty of people don't test in the minimum time frame, and too many start thinking that just showing up, in some cases erratically, is enough to get promoted to the next belt, on the "but it's been 3 months since I last tested, I must be ready - what do you mean I've missed over 50% of the classes and I can't test" theory.

Every system of ranking has it's own problems - and so does not having a system at all. It's a matter of finding the system that works best for your and your organization, and tweaking it as necessary to make it work as well as it can... and having the integrity to follow your own guidelines when it might be easier (and, dare I say it, more lucrative) to water the guidelines down.

 

[Chitmunk]

Every system of ranking has it's own problems - and so does not having a system at all. It's a matter of finding the system that works best for your and your organization, and tweaking it as necessary to make it work as well as it can... and having the integrity to follow your own guidelines when it might be easier (and, dare I say it, more lucrative) to water the guidelines down.[/quote]




That, I dare say, is probably one of the main reasons you get black belts who can hardly do a side kick, too much focus on what belt they are wearing, and not enough on what skills are being learned, or how much money is being earned. One of the TKD schools I attended years ago wouldn't let me test for my yellow because I hadn't updated my membership at that point, even though I still had pleanty of time before I needed to update. Then when I did they tried to scam my parents for more money than was asked for, needless to say I never got my yellow because I was out of that school pretty quick.

Because of that I usually tell my friends who are interested in starting in MA that they should be wary of schools that promise a black belt in a certain amount of time, but instead watch the middle to high rank students to see how much skill they have learned. If you have a bunch of high rank students who throw sloppy punches and weak blocks, then the school is probably not teaching in the most effective way.