True masters Don't worry about rank?

[Sin]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?

 

[mj_lover]

i believe the colored belts came about for competition reasons, to help estimate ability levels. If i remeber corectly, Dr. Kano developed the color system for judo in the late 1800's, early 1900's

 

[Marginal]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?

Uh, the founder of TKD did earn a BB.

 

[RRouuselot]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?

You have obviously researched and thought about this in great detail before posting it.

Belt ranks were developed by Mr. Kano as was stated. I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom.

As for Karate, this system was adopted by Funakoshi’s group that had close contact with Mr. Kano’s….in fact some students of Kano joined Funakoshi’s training.
The founder of TKD Mr. Choi (?) studied Shotokan (which is where TKD came from) in Japan and yes he did “earn” his belt. If I am not mistaken he didn’t call it TKD until he got back on Korean soil.

 

[Miles]

...I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom.

I have never heard of this, but it would not surprise me. I learned that it is still very important, at least in Korean society, to have business cards ready when meeting folks on the street. This way the "social standing" could be established.

As for Karate, this system was adopted by Funakoshi’s group that had close contact with Mr. Kano’s….in fact some students of Kano joined Funakoshi’s training.

I read somewhere that Funakoshi would always bow when traveling past the Kodokan.

The founder of TKD Mr. Choi (?) studied Shotokan (which is where TKD came from) in Japan and yes he did “earn” his belt. If I am not mistaken he didn’t call it TKD until he got back on Korean soil.

Gen. Choi coined the term and yes, he is alleged to have studied Shotokan. The founder of the Chung Do Kwan (1944), GM LEE, Won Kuk, studied Shotokan with Funakoshi's son. The founder of the Song Moo Kwan, GM RO, Byung Jick also studied Shotokan while in Japan and taught briefly at the Chung Do Kwan. GM LEE, Won Kuk called his art "Tang Soo Do". The term Taekwondo was not accepted by all the Kwans until the early 1960s.

Back to the issue of rank-true masters are not concerned as rank will take care of itself, one way or another. Never saw anyone in Korea wearing stripes on their belts. RRouselot can comment on what he sees in Japan (I am assuming but I don't know that his experience is similar) Rank stripes-that is a Western practice.

Miles

 

[RRouuselot]

RRouselot can comment on what he sees in Japan (I am assuming but I don't know that his experience is similar) Rank stripes-that is a Western practice.

Miles

Actually Mas Oyama had "rank stripes" and so did many other Japanese karateka.
In Okinawa it is not too popular but you see it from time to time.

 

[Aegis]

Belt ranks were developed by Mr. Kano as was stated. I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom.

I was under the impression that after the initial distinction between black and white, the colours were inspired by the Japanese swimming team and adapted to the new Judo ranking system. I can't say I've ever heard that the colour idea was taken from samurai times, though there may be a nugget of truth in there I suppose...

 

[Colin_Linz]

We just use white for gokyu and yonkyu, brown for sankyu nikyu and ikkyu, and black. We have no stripes, but the chest badge colour changes from green for kyu kenshi, black for shodan and nidan, and red for sandan and above. There are also some other ones that are used to designate organisational positions like branch master. I don’t really know why we do it this way.

 

[Miles]

Actually Mas Oyama had "rank stripes" and so did many other Japanese karateka.
In Okinawa it is not too popular but you see it from time to time.

Thank you, had forgotten about Mas Oyama's belt.

I have seen stripes on belts worn by Okinawan karateka (am specifically thinking of Shoshin Nagamine) but was informed that they stand for level of instructor? Can you confirm/deny this?

Miles

 

[daddyslittle1]

.

 

[RRouuselot]

I have seen stripes on belts worn by Okinawan karateka (am specifically thinking of Shoshin Nagamine) but was informed that they stand for level of instructor? Can you confirm/deny this?

Miles

I heard the same thing. I am not sure if it is true or not. I don't think it stands for dan ranks like other schools.

 

[Sam]

*wonders what happens to daddy'slittle1's post*

I don't know much about this but, typical of me, I'm gonna put my two cents in anyway. I think I read somewhere that the idea was taken from the swimming teams who used colors to denote different ranks.

I don't know if it is an 'american' thing but I do know that far too many people place too much emphesis on your rank - ie, you have a disagreement about something and the other party dismisses your concerns because they outrank you - like if you rank below them you cannot be right. (I will never understand that).

If you mean by the title of the thread that they don't worry about their own rank, I'd agree with that statement. But I'd be willing to bet they sometimes worry about the lack of progress some students show.

 

[Chronuss]

I had never known about the swim team helping to bring forth the idea of colored rank, that's nifty food for thought. some denomination of rank came from simply wearing the same sash over, and over, and over, and over again. when you first went to study, the cloth was white and new, and simply assisted in keeping pants secure around the waist. from simply wear and tear, the cloth would become dirty from training and stained from wearer's blood and sweat, and eventually would become black and worn.

 

[RRouuselot]

I had never known about the swim team helping to bring forth the idea of colored rank, that's nifty food for thought. some denomination of rank came from simply wearing the same sash over, and over, and over, and over again. when you first went to study, the cloth was white and new, and simply assisted in keeping pants secure around the waist. from simply wear and tear, the cloth would become dirty from training and stained from wearer's blood and sweat, and eventually would become black and worn.

That is one of the "old wives tales" of the martial arts and has no factual basis regarding the induction of the colored belts system.

 

[Sam]

the swim thing or the white belt gets so dirty its black thing?

some martial arts think you wash the knowlege out if you wash your belt or gi - I could see that being true... *goes to look it up...*

 

[Knifehand]

the swim thing or the white belt gets so dirty its black thing?

some martial arts think you wash the knowlege out if you wash your belt or gi - I could see that being true... *goes to look it up...*

From www.mastercollins.com (Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)

TANG SOO DO

THE COLORS OF THE BELTS

WhiteSymbol of purity, novice hidden potential and represents the student as a seed freshly planted in the ground. It represents winter.Yellow/OrangeIs the initial growth of the seed. It represents winter/spring.GreenAre the colors of life and vigor. It is symbolic of the plant and represents the level of rapid development of a student. It represents spring.RedIs the color of energy and vitality. It represents the flowering of a strong plant. It represents a students improvement, active participation and advancement. It represents summer.Midnight BlueMidnight blue symbolizes infinity and perfection. It is this quest for perfection that epitomizes Tang Soo Do. A practitioner of Tang Soo Do must never be satisfied or complacent. Rather, he/she must continually strive to be better. Tang Soo Do "black belts" are represented by Midnight Blue. The color black symbolizes the mastering of everything in that the color cannot be changed by adding any other color. With Blue, it is possible to continue adding more and more color to blue, rendering it darker and darker thereby implying that we must not become stagnate in our physical, mental and spiritual ability. Also, that no matter what stage of life we are experiencing, there is always room for growth; which is contrary to the symbolic statement made by the color black that one cannot be changed (i.e. that a student could reach their full growth and potential).

 

[Sin]

You have obviously researched and thought about this in great detail before posting it.

::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.

 

[loki09789]

::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.

Possibly, but that may also be more MA folklore and myth as well. A parable to emphasize that the belt should be symbolic of your journey if you are going to wear it at all.

Rank, as a training tool, is only effective as a way to organize curriculum so that people know who knows how much and what they are prepared to learn or how intensely someone should feed them in sparring or give and take drills.

As a social pecking order tool, ego boost, self importance machine it will always fail in time because it distracts from the training.

There are those who carry the term GrandMaster or the equivalent and care more about protecting that title than earning it everyday they teach, train and learn.

 

[ppko]

::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.

I had heard that as well ( long time ago) but I don't put much faith in it. While it could be true it doesn't seem to be true

 

[Knifehand]

isn't enough to realized that the belts signify progress? if you want to believe they mean on thing.... then thats what you believe. The meanings of the colors differ from one style to another...