MA Promotion Systems--Belts, Etc.

[AdrenalineJunky]

This has probably been done before, if so, I my apologies to those who are annoyed by re-posting. My question deals with everybody's views on the promotion systems that various MAs use to rank their student. Coming from a Muay Thai background, we never had anything like that. I started when I was fifteen; at sixteen I received my advanced certificate, which basically meant that I could train with the other advanced students. Aside from straight training, the only other thing to do is get your amateur license, then your professional license, and finally, your teaching license.

I met someone a couple of days ago, and just through getting to know them, the subject of my return to serious training came up. She said something like: "Oh, really?, what belt are you?" Then I had to explain the whole situation, which, I believe, she perceived meant that MT was not a legit art, because there were no belts. Now, I realize that this is a situation involving somebody who's naive with respect to MA, but I'd imagine that belts/rank can become a bit of a distraction, as it seems to be a major focal point of the respective art.

So, for those of you who practice arts with this type of promotion/ranking system, how do you feel about the system? Is it a distraction, either for yourself or for others in your gym/dojo? Does the ranking system allow you to "pull rank," or anything of the sort. Seems like the belt system would definitely cater to the "ego" in most of us, you know, where bragging rights are concerned. I realize my MAists realize their ability and are somewhat humbled by it, but do you think the coveted "black belt" leads to arrogance in some cases?

I started wrestling and MT as a teenager; the only way that we had to represent our ability was, well. . .our ability, and there was no animosity based on rank. Sorry for the long post.

AJ

 

[Gary Crawford]

When I was a kid learning Kenpo(seventies),I thought belt rank was everything,it was a good way for goal setting,after passing my Shodan(1st black)test, I was a little disenchanted about it.I guess I had a missperception about what a black belt was,I was expecting myself to be perfect,no mistakes and absoltely unbeatable.After accepting the fact that I had a long way yet to go,rank stopped meaning so much to me,I became much more focused on my skill.

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm in WTF TKD and we use the belt system. I think for most it is a "system" more so that you as a student, know what requirements are necessary to go from point A to point B. If ALL the requirements were laid out and the instructor says we'll teach you them all, how long would it be before the student was overwhelmed? It is easier to present instruction for 3-4 months in a graduated process and check the student and tell him what he needs to practice to achieve a yellow belt. For most it requires that time to to try to prioritize with your own goals to achieve the end goal. And the color of the belt will remind him where the student is in their journey.

Pretty much each belt has to be learned slowly because the requirements get harder progressively. Cardio fitness, strength, flexibility, balance, agility, technique, toughening, memorization, besides standards/values like courtesy, self control, indomitable spirit, integrity, perseverance, respect, humility, patience, discipline, repetition have to acquired and for some it takes along time. I have seen people who don't have humility not be able to test. Also goes for respect and integrity and self-control. These people should not be black belts in Taekwondo. I have not seen any black belt that has come out of our school with an ego problem. Actually he screens those people right out of the program. I have not seen anyone misuse their rank either. Some small instances of teen higher belts but that's it. And they were disciplined. In regards to "distraction", I don't know what you are referring to. Working for a belt, is focus-oriented not a distraction. :asian: TW

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

In regards to "distraction", I don't know what you are referring to. Working for a belt, is focus-oriented not a distraction. :asian: TW

I meant focusing on achieving the belt, as opposed to training for the sole purpose of achieving skill.

AJ

 

[Gary Crawford]

TigerWoman, That's great your school is like that,most do try to be,but with running a martial arts school being such a hard business to be sucessful,some schools need students more than others, and bills sitting on your desk makes some people to take chances they shouldn't,and they got some of those students and parents of students who only care about their belt ranking(and doing only as much as they have to get the next belt).I've seen many of these that actualy make it to 1st dan(Eventualy).I think some instructors sometimes fall into this too, by looking for students who could possibly test soon only because bills are due.Then there are some schools who are so competion oriented that they don't test very often and concentrait the students on competion until they win a lot in their belt division.When I coached my son in USTU competitions,we would see people who were definatly sandbagging their rank to have a competion advantage.I suppose those folks are driven by medals and trophies!

 

[TigerWoman]

Thanks for clarifiying that. I would think that the focus would be on the belt for the new ones, probably for the first year. Your master tells you that you have to learn this form this way, long stances, this way, kicks this way. You have to do the same number of kicks as the black belts in practice but somehow, you know you don't do them as well or don't make the number.
You practice the self-defense techniques given you, because too much more than that and nothing is learned "well". Your sparring-well you're a babe in the woods. You have to be guided.


After a while, though, you realize that in order to do that spin heel, or jump back kick as a higher belt that you need to concentrate on those. So when the master asks what everybody wants to do, instead of being silent as a white belt, you pipe up. Also, you focus on what tips everyone says in sparring, including the lessons which the master is teaching, to get better.. You practice forms, kicks on your own outside of classtime. You work on those pushups at home. You get more "into it" and more actively involved in your own training instead of being "guided".

So, in that regard, focus, perception, involvement, and level of training changes as one progresses through the system. TW

 

[TigerWoman]

Then there are some schools who are so competion oriented that they don't test very often and concentrait the students on competion until they win a lot in their belt division.When I coached my son in USTU competitions,we would see people who were definatly sandbagging their rank to have a competion advantage.I suppose those folks are driven by medals and trophies!

I guess, I have been pretty much living in my own school system "vacuum" and not really knowing about other schools. Our master just seems to get tougher - 5000 front kicks in 50 min. for ex. Then I see other women do breaking in tournaments and wonder what the heck! A black belt doing simple techniques a first year student should do. And, I don't know really about belt "mills". Our students really have to earn their belts, IMO, with a few exceptions. I know that thing about competing as a lower rank. We can't if we have received our belt but we are allowed to do the lower form.
Also, we don't follow the USTU compeitition circuit. Just have our own opens or go to others. Not much focus on that just a few weeks to try breaking technique. So, I guess we aren't that way at all. TW

 

[auxprix]

My dojo uses belts as a way to self motivate. They tell us that promotion is our responsibility. They will give the test every time, but we have to decide for ourselves weather or not we are ready. I think that this forces students to think critically about their progress. I my self have thought in the past "well, I know the techniques to be promoted, but I'm just not comfortable enough with them to legitimately move on." I believe that teaching students this value is one of the first important things that Martial arts convays.

Belts are also beneficial for the beginner. Having to concentrate on certain aspects of the art forces the newcomer to hone the basics before they move on. Progressing in your art without a proper foundation is very harmful, and it becomes extremely difficult to change all of your bad habits.

That is what I think about the belt system. If it is used correctly, it can be useful for self motivation and keeping the right focus. Of course, if you're only using belts to make a few bucks every few months...that's a problem.

 

[terryl965]

TigerWoman, That's great your school is like that,most do try to be,but with running a martial arts school being such a hard business to be sucessful,some schools need students more than others, and bills sitting on your desk makes some people to take chances they shouldn't,and they got some of those students and parents of students who only care about their belt ranking(and doing only as much as they have to get the next belt).I've seen many of these that actualy make it to 1st dan(Eventualy).I think some instructors sometimes fall into this too, by looking for students who could possibly test soon only because bills are due.Then there are some schools who are so competion oriented that they don't test very often and concentrait the students on competion until they win a lot in their belt division.When I coached my son in USTU competitions,we would see people who were definatly sandbagging their rank to have a competion advantage.I suppose those folks are driven by medals and trophies!

HELLO MR.CRAWFORD YOU AR RIGHT MY SON'S COMPETE IN THE USTU AND AAU WE SEE STUDENT AT GREEN FOR TWO YEARS JUST SO THEY CAN DOMINANT THERE DIVISION,( AND THEY ALREADY TESTED FOR THERE BLACK JUST NEVER SENT IT TO THE OFFICE OF THAT ORGANIZATION AND WHEN YOU BRING THIS UP THEY: THE USTU OR AAU JUST SAY WE CAN;T DO ANYTHING IF THE SCHOOL ONLY SAY'S THEY ARE A GREEN BELT: SUCH POLITICS IN THE SPORT OF TDK... A SCHOOL LOCALLY THE INSTRUCTOR FLAT OUT TELLS HIS STUDENT YOU ARE BLACK IN THE DOJAANG NOT AT TOURNAMENT WHAT A CROOK... GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[MichiganTKD]

We use the belt system authorized by the WTF. Aside from providing a tangible means to allow students to gauge their progress, it provides a structured system that tells Instructors and students where they are and what they should be able to do.
It is very difficult for many people to realize when they are physically getting better and improving, because they can't see themselves performing techniques. Even the Instructor telling them they are getting better only goes so far. However, when a student takes off the green belt and puts on the blue belt, or takes off the red belt and puts on the black belt, it provides tangible evidence that they are better than they were 6 months or a year ago.
For Instructors, belt systems allow us to say "this student, as a blue belt, should be able to do a pretty decent back sidekick and know this form." If they are unable to perform certain techniques well, they cannot hold that rank. And denying them a certain belt is not saying you suck, it just says "you need more practice with these green belt techniques before you can test for blue belt." Again, it goes back to tangible and structured methods of gauging where they are and where they should be.
We have testings every two months. It doesn't mean you test every two months. You stay at a certain rank until you show you have perfected what you are supposed to know. Then you test at the next testing.

 

[OC Kid]

I think the the belt system is a report card to the student and to the parent as well as a motivating factor in their training. Its like when my kids come home with a report card with outstandings and then they get promoted to the next grade. Just yesterday in class I was working with this kid who has a abusive step father who talks down to him and demeans him. I was working with him in his basics and he was starting to get a little sloppy. Then I told him that he has progressed wonderfully. i told him look at the blocks you can do now that you couldnt do 7 weeks ago when you started, look at the kicks you aredoing now. man you have come a long long way. you keep this up and Im going to test you in a couple of months. just keep practicing.
I saw his eyes light up and man he started snapping his kicks and going into his stances faster, stronger then he ever did before.

To tell ya the truth just on that alone I wasgoing to promote him to his first stripe (juniors go through a basic 1,2,3 stripe system before getting any colored belts).
But Im gonna work with him extra hard as he gets privates on Thursdays and see if I can get him ready a little sooner.

For the MT training. They are kind of like boxers. No rank system to say but they do have amature and pro. Thats ok also. The person who asked what belt you were in MT probably didnt have a clue about the art. I asked someone a question like that when I first started trying to impress them with my vast knowledge of course I was at 9th KYU and felt I was the next Bruce Lee or Dan Anderson.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Tigerwoman - the principles of taekwondo were in that post, weren't they? You tripped that memory switch in my head! Part of what I liked about tkd was the traditional aspects of the training - and repeating the principles. We have the kids recite the kenpo creed before each class.

On the actual topic here, I noticed that there's a lot of discussion about 'sandbagging' in tournaments. Unfortunately, since certain styles have so many splinter groups - tkd has all those federations - there is no way of ascertaining whether someone really is as presented. It's too bad. You would think that the AAU at the very least would be able to regulate itself - but that's another topic entirely.

As to using a belt system in a dojo/dojang, another point I didn't see directly addressed was the fact that, by seeing what someone's rank is, as MichiganTKD said, you know that person has a certain command of the portion of your art up to that point. That facilitates asking for help when your instructor(s) is(are) with other students and you would like a point clarified. I know that is what we use it for in my dojo. Even within brown belt we have three vastly different ranks, because the techniques are more difficult in Brown II than Brown I, which is the higher rank (it goes backward from III to I), but the form is more difficult at Brown I. Also, with the amount of material required for each belt level in our style of Parker kenpo (we learn 20 techs per belt after Yellow, totally 170 through Black I, and 7 forms plus nine sets which we are required to present when testing for black belt), it is easy to start 'grafting' techs together after a while or confusing the names of some with others. The higher belts are ALWAYS willing to stop and help. I have yet to see someone in our dojo say no.

 

[TigerWoman]

In reply to Kenpo Tiger:

The keys of Taekwondo in our school are Respect, Repetition, Patience, Discipline and Humility. The keys are the way to achieve success in many different ways, in school as well as life.

The tenets are Courtesy, Integrity, Self-Control, Perseverance, and Indomitable Spirit. The tenets, I believe are necessary to become a black belt and I'm not talking about a "belt" but the person wearing it.

The lower belts learn the keys first and then as they advance in rank, both the keys and the tenets. The meaning of these have to be learned and are questioned/discussed/lectured about orally at each test. Sometimes papers are written as an assignment on these topics.

The original Taek Kyon' trained warriors were known as the Hwa Rang. The guiding principles of their education were based on the Five Codes of Human Conduct, which remain still a Tae Kwon Do code for moral behavior:

Be loyal to your country
Be obedient to your parents
Be trustworthy to your friends
Never retreat in battle
Never make an unjust kill

TW :asian:

 

[dubljay]

"Although belt colors may show, it is not proof that you know"- SGM Ed Parker


The belt systems are nothing more than something for people to set goals with. They are short term, quick goals. It gives some people a sense of accomplishment as they progress through the art. There always going to be some that let rank go to their head, and all they will ever see is rank, not ability.

Personally I never care about what belt color I am. I would be perfectly content with never wearing a belt at all.

-Josh-

 

[TKD USA]

I believe there is a point in which a martial artist realizes the color of the belts don't matter it is your skill that matters. Sometimes people realize it sooner then others. I realized it when I learned that my instructor stayed as a 2nd Dan blackbelt for 7 years just so he can perfect his skills.

 

[kenpo tiger]

"Although belt colors may show, it is not proof that you know"- SGM Ed Parker


The belt systems are nothing more than something for people to set goals with. They are short term, quick goals. It gives some people a sense of accomplishment as they progress through the art. There always going to be some that let rank go to their head, and all they will ever see is rank, not ability.

Personally I never care about what belt color I am. I would be perfectly content with never wearing a belt at all.

-Josh-

And what would hold up your gi pants?

Seriously, the belt system is a Western invention to satisfy the quick, short term, to paraphrase what you said. I still stand by my statement that it is also an indicator of knowledge. Those who abuse their rank may have skill but no knowledge.:asian: KT

 

[KenpoTess]

*thinking aloud.. hmmm mebbe we should institute rank suspenders for WV schools*

Seriously..I see belts as stepping stones.. rather like school grades. beginner, Intermediate and advanced.. Primary, middle and High school. Black belt rankings would be upper collegiate courses.
just thinking outloud..


~Tess

 

[brothershaw]

The problem is not belts/rankings- the thing is people always want to use some kind of divider or possesion to validiate thier own status, and/or put themsleves above somebody else. not everybody is like that but most people operate like that to some degree , somewhere in life. Even if you had no belts in a school, the people who were thier longer would use thier time in and a skill as a divider mark. THe best that can bew hoped for are competent teahcers who make competent students. However considering how the public education system screws up very often with vastly greater resources you have to expect some very cheesy martial arts schools when martial arts are pretty much self regulated, and outside( government regulation) would be a disaster.
Alot of people get h.s. diplomas, some are blatantly smarter/ worked harder. Alot of people get college degrees some are blatantly smarter worked harder. It is what it is. Just like school its up to the student to make the most out of it/ get the best education they can.

 

[TigerWoman]

I believe there is a point in which a martial artist realizes the color of the belts don't matter it is your skill that matters. Sometimes people realize it sooner then others. I realized it when I learned that my instructor stayed as a 2nd Dan blackbelt for 7 years just so he can perfect his skills.

This is not addressed to TKD USA but is in answer to, with previous posts:

By the time you get to black belt, you have the basics, are fit, strong and you have some proficiency in all the kicks. Hopefully you have moral and personal standards or you wouldn't have made it to black. You are past the boot camp phase. That's probably why black belts stay black unless you stay at the same rank and stopped trying to achieve more goals. And by the way, goals are not "bad". Life is about goals. Or would you rather meander through life saying I don't have to get up in the morning to keep this job. Goals are about personal growth. Grow or stay stagnant. Grow your mind and your body and your relationships with others. Goals don't have to be only in the "perimeter of the belt". The test for the belt says you have gotten to this level of excellence, a test of time that many others have gone through before you. Its not even about purely skill. Just skill at doing a good technique or form does not make you a good martial artist. Don't ever belittle someone else's test unless you have gone through it yourself. It can also be a test of endurance, intestinal fortitude, courage, and indomitable spirit. But a test can only show so much and is only a guideline. Much more can be achieved than just a belt could signify. It really is up to to practicioner. I personally, and probably would take a long time to perfect my skills too as a 2nd dan before I would be able to consider 3rd if at all. But hypothetically speaking, I may have made it to a higher level on other planes than any other. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Everyone has their own journey. You have to set the pace and put in the effort of what you want to get out of martial arts. Along the way you discover yourself through many trials and in many different ways, as a white belt on until you become the last rank of black belt possible. Its about the journey. TW :asian:

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

That was an awesome post, TW. In a system without belts, all you have to strive for is personal excelence, which, apparently, is the case for systems that incorporate this tpy of promotion, as well. Thank you all for your thoughts.

AJ