Pin or Check?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah:
Sean

A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him.

If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.

IF you have executed the first part of this technique correctly, THEN follow-up attack on his part is essentially not possible. So...what would your positioned check be checking against? The only answer would be...things not already nailed down, because you didn't do it right. Planned failure.

Any stance with your hands up is basically a positioned check. Outside the contact manipulation range, I still think keeping your hands up to protect your favorite places is a good idea. I just don't think in control manipulation. Your checks are built into the anatomy of the controls.

Switch systems for a minute to get away from kenpo-think. If you are mounted on a guy, grounding and pounding, pinning him with one hand and dropping blows straight down with the other...with which hand do you positionally check?You don't need to. You can reach his noggin' with blows, but he can't reach yours. He can reach your waist with blows, but none with any degree of backup mass to cause damage. You can then apply learning theory...every time he taps you on the ribs, you drop an inward elbow to the side of his head. His options are checked by the nature of the positions in contact. His side to side mobility is checked by your knee and legwork (if you're any good); his ability to pull you in to an attack...checked by the cooperation you get from the interplay between gravity and natural force that allows you to sit bolt upright or do a push up and pull back away from him. You do not need to poition a check with your left hand at your right shoulder when throwing a right downward punch on a mounted opponent; he ain't gonna hitcha anywhere near there (I mention this because I've seen video of a kenpo pseudo-senior doing this very same thing). That left can be used to entangle the guy, or yank his hair, or base out for improved stability, or whatever, and you can still pummel him at will due to the positional restraints of the mount.

As a fighting distance/range/sublevel/whatever, being mounted on a guy (and the mean stuff you can do to him from there) falls grossly within the control manipulation category. And negates the need for positioned checks. Unless you just want to keep your hands busy and look good. (cuz, dang, we kenpo people do look good with our hands all flagged like that).

So as you and the boyz are yukking it up, remember to include in that discussion the role level of contact plays in the planned failure/planned success model.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Doc]

A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him.

If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.

IF you have executed the first part of this technique correctly, THEN follow-up attack on his part is essentially not possible. So...what would your positioned check be checking against? The only answer would be...things not already nailed down, because you didn't do it right. Planned failure.

Any stance with your hands up is basically a positioned check. Outside the contact manipulation range, I still think keeping your hands up to protect your favorite places is a good idea. I just don't think in control manipulation. Your checks are built into the anatomy of the controls.

Switch systems for a minute to get away from kenpo-think. If you are mounted on a guy, grounding and pounding, pinning him with one hand and dropping blows straight down with the other...with which hand do you positionally check?You don't need to. You can reach his noggin' with blows, but he can't reach yours. He can reach your waist with blows, but none with any degree of backup mass to cause damage. You can then apply learning theory...every time he taps you on the ribs, you drop an inward elbow to the side of his head. His options are checked by the nature of the positions in contact. His side to side mobility is checked by your knee and legwork (if you're any good); his ability to pull you in to an attack...checked by the cooperation you get from the interplay between gravity and natural force that allows you to sit bolt upright or do a push up and pull back away from him. You do not need to poition a check with your left hand at your right shoulder when throwing a right downward punch on a mounted opponent; he ain't gonna hitcha anywhere near there (I mention this because I've seen video of a kenpo pseudo-senior doing this very same thing). That left can be used to entangle the guy, or yank his hair, or base out for improved stability, or whatever, and you can still pummel him at will due to the positional restraints of the mount.

As a fighting distance/range/sublevel/whatever, being mounted on a guy (and the mean stuff you can do to him from there) falls grossly within the control manipulation category. And negates the need for positioned checks. Unless you just want to keep your hands busy and look good. (cuz, dang, we kenpo people do look good with our hands all flagged like that).

So as you and the boyz are yukking it up, remember to include in that discussion the role level of contact plays in the planned failure/planned success model.

Regards,

Dave

Well when you look at it, you either explain what that other hand should be doing or you create a "positional check," than you don't have to. Mr. Parker never 'positonal checked.' But you are right sir. What a positional check really is - is a simple 'on guard' in anticipation of an attempted assault. Once the assault is initiated, there should be no such thing and doesn't exist in reality.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Umbilical check...does anyone else use this term? If so, what does it mean to you? I've not heard it outside my own group, so I'm curious as to its universality within the kenpo system as its understood by others.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

If you mean driving weapons to the core then yes.
Sean

 

[bujuts]

If you mean driving weapons to the core then yes.
Sean

By umbilical check I'm referring to a pinning of the attacker's arm to you using what may look to an outsider as the classical "on guard" check that some kenpoists use. Simply stated, if off a grab in Delayed Sword I decide to pin the right wrist to my chest, I do so not with my palm facing into me, but will orient my forearm such that I am engaging my latissimus to anchor my arm down, with my elbow close to my body. This alignment places the palm roughly orthoganol to your torso, and your contact is made roughly the lower extremity of the radius at your wrist (I'm not great at describing precise anatomical positions, but that might get the idea across).

Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own. Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Touch Of Death]

By umbilical check I'm referring to a pinning of the attacker's arm to you using what may look to an outsider as the classical "on guard" check that some kenpoists use. Simply stated, if off a grab in Delayed Sword I decide to pin the right wrist to my chest, I do so not with my palm facing into me, but will orient my forearm such that I am engaging my latissimus to anchor my arm down, with my elbow close to my body. This alignment places the palm roughly orthoganol to your torso, and your contact is made roughly the lower extremity of the radius at your wrist (I'm not great at describing precise anatomical positions, but that might get the idea across).

Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own. Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

Kind of like the first move of sticky hands set.
Sean

 

[bujuts]

Kind of like the first move of sticky hands set.
Sean

Do you mean the first leaf, with the inward block / bracing angle check and the hammer fist to the clavicle? I guess I'm not seeing the link on that one to the umbilical check, but then again my description of the u.c. may come across differently than I intended. No matter, I'll have to study them both more - I think you've found something I haven't. Thanks for the thoughts.

Cheers,

Steve Brown
UKF

 

[Touch Of Death]

Do you mean the first leaf, with the inward block / bracing angle check and the hammer fist to the clavicle? I guess I'm not seeing the link on that one to the umbilical check, but then again my description of the u.c. may come across differently than I intended. No matter, I'll have to study them both more - I think you've found something I haven't. Thanks for the thoughts.

Cheers,

Steve Brown
UKF

Actualy I see just about every tech in the system within that set. Although the set does strike the clavical, if you simply change the angle of incidence the strike becomes the inside block and the left could do the possible umbilical check of the Delayed Sword and of course the act of snaking around for the outward block cross check could just as well be the outward swordhand of Delayed Sword. Its all good.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own. Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.

Actually it is quite strong as a 'pin,' however that limb position creates boyancy, prevents settling, and makes you vulnerable should be struck while in that position. It is known as the "Boyant Arm Position" translated from the old Madarin.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him.

If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.

IF you have executed the first part of this technique correctly, THEN follow-up attack on his part is essentially not possible. So...what would your positioned check be checking against? The only answer would be...things not already nailed down, because you didn't do it right. Planned failure.

Any stance with your hands up is basically a positioned check. Outside the contact manipulation range, I still think keeping your hands up to protect your favorite places is a good idea. I just don't think in control manipulation. Your checks are built into the anatomy of the controls.

Switch systems for a minute to get away from kenpo-think. If you are mounted on a guy, grounding and pounding, pinning him with one hand and dropping blows straight down with the other...with which hand do you positionally check?You don't need to. You can reach his noggin' with blows, but he can't reach yours. He can reach your waist with blows, but none with any degree of backup mass to cause damage. You can then apply learning theory...every time he taps you on the ribs, you drop an inward elbow to the side of his head. His options are checked by the nature of the positions in contact. His side to side mobility is checked by your knee and legwork (if you're any good); his ability to pull you in to an attack...checked by the cooperation you get from the interplay between gravity and natural force that allows you to sit bolt upright or do a push up and pull back away from him. You do not need to poition a check with your left hand at your right shoulder when throwing a right downward punch on a mounted opponent; he ain't gonna hitcha anywhere near there (I mention this because I've seen video of a kenpo pseudo-senior doing this very same thing). That left can be used to entangle the guy, or yank his hair, or base out for improved stability, or whatever, and you can still pummel him at will due to the positional restraints of the mount.

As a fighting distance/range/sublevel/whatever, being mounted on a guy (and the mean stuff you can do to him from there) falls grossly within the control manipulation category. And negates the need for positioned checks. Unless you just want to keep your hands busy and look good. (cuz, dang, we kenpo people do look good with our hands all flagged like that).

So as you and the boyz are yukking it up, remember to include in that discussion the role level of contact plays in the planned failure/planned success model.

Regards,

Dave

As much as this discussion is coming up about the Pin or No Pin in Delayed Sword, everyone is still saying and doing the same thing from what I can read.

As for your post, you're talking about the Even-If phase. The pin in Delayed Sword prevents the What-If from happening by sheer dimensional cancellation, this way, there is but one conclusion, Ideal Phase.

So many people use the What-If as a crutch for their lack of skill or knowledge, but it's an open ended concept, and as you said, planning for failure. Even-If closes that, as it won't matter what happens, the conclusion will be what you desired in the first place. The ideal, what-if, and forumulation phase is a great tool for beginners, but as you advance in the art and engrain the material, it should become ideal, Even-If, ideal, because with proper training, you won't formulate outside the system or techs. principles.

Procedural Memory, sensitivity drills, and Pavlovic reflex kick in to provide you with the quickest response to a threat, but simple positional checks don't give you that option. To me, there's Active checks and Passive checks. Passive checks are relegated to the beginning and end of techs., when you're going to start or close/end the ordeal while Active checks are implemented throughout the tech. I want to be in constant contact with my opponent until I'm done, so not only can I see what he's doing, I can FEEL what he's doing, hence the reason for Active checking. The pin in Delayed Sword is an Active check.

DarK LorD

 

[MJS]

Another way we could look at his is: What is the goal that we want to acheive? Lone Kimono involves pinning the hand, so we can acheive that arm break. Crossing Talon involves a counter grab, so that we can counter strike. Now against the wrist grab, I can move my arm counter clock wise, laying the back of my hand over theirs, hit the arm off with my left and counter strike with my right. Acheived goals with both methods. Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.

 

[jonah2]

..... Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.

Not if he lets go
if he grabs me, he affords some advantage
If I counter grab (PIN) then I, at the very least, bring it back to 50/50

 

[Seabrook]

Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.

Dave

Well put, Dave.

 

[Seabrook]

In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check."

Ouch!

But I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Seabrook]

when I'm doing it without the pin, I have the other hand up, in the event something else is thrown, such as a left punch.

Mike

But all you would need to do is graft into Sword of Destruction should the opponent throw the left hand, Mike.


Jamie Seabrook

 

[Seabrook]

The ideal, what-if, and forumulation phase is a great tool for beginners, but as you advance in the art and engrain the material, it should become ideal, Even-If, ideal, because with proper training, you won't formulate outside the system or techs. principles.

DarK LorD

Clyde,

You told me this over and over a couple of years ago, and I am now in complete agreement.

Well put.

Jamie Seabrook

 

[MJS]

Not if he lets go
if he grabs me, he affords some advantage
If I counter grab (PIN) then I, at the very least, bring it back to 50/50

Thats correct, they just may let go. Again, it goes back to what the goal is. Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike? Do we want to get the hand off? If they let go, thats fine. I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.

 

[MJS]

This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch, though obviously we may elect to illustrate the principles contained within the technique against a grab as well. For myself, if trapping the offending arm is my intention I may be inclined to use an umbilical check, of course depending on what needs to be done.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

I've learned this as a punch as well. Its nice to see that this tech. can be applied to both attacks.

Mike

 

[jonah2]

Thats correct, they just may let go. Again, it goes back to what the goal is. Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike? Do we want to get the hand off? If they let go, thats fine. I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.

My ultimate goal is to go home. If in this synario he lets go because I have not pinned we are at a face off - 50/50 - I dont go much on odds that are not in my favour.

If I pin, I gain control to stop when I want to. Just because he lets go, does not mean you have eliminated the current problem - you have an aggressor standing in front of you who has just failed to intimidate you with a simple grab may try more this time

jonah

 

[MJS]

My ultimate goal is to go home. If in this synario he lets go because I have not pinned we are at a face off - 50/50 - I dont go much on odds that are not in my favour.

If I pin, I gain control to stop when I want to. Just because he lets go, does not mean you have eliminated the current problem - you have an aggressor standing in front of you who has just failed to intimidate you with a simple grab may try more this time

jonah

Considering that everyone is going to have their own version of the techniques, to say that one method is better/worse than the other is really a moot point.

If we think about it, we're at a face off before the grab is attained, so it seems that the odds still are not going to be in our favor. Whats to say that when we're done with that technique, its going to stop him? Are we going to continue to hold him to beat him? Are we going to get away?

In a previous post, I stated that the tehcnique can be done w/o the grab. You stated that the person may let go. Its possible that they may let go before we have a chance to pin as well.

I certainly don't want to assume that anything.

 

[bujuts]

Actually it is quite strong as a 'pin,' however that limb position creates boyancy, prevents settling, and makes you vulnerable should be struck while in that position..

I'm not clear on the boyancy thing at all, I will have to work that pin and concentrate on that to see where you're coming from. Might you elaborate? As for vulnerability, I'm assuming you mean from a third party? Of course, that vulnerability always exists in any static state, I suppose, and such a pin if executed would be very temporary, and stasis would definitely not be part of my strategy.

Were I to execute that pin on the initial attacker, I'd hold it as a high priority to invade their space cancel dimensions so to eliminate the opportunity further attack on their part.

All in all, I find myself using the umbilical check as a stronger tool in the toolchest labeled Contact Manipulation. But it is anything but a fixed position, and I believe that particular position would be a bad idea for any prolonged Contact Maintenance.

Thanks in advance.

In kenpo.

Steve Brown
UKF