Delayed Sword: Technique Discussion

Blindside

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Thanks for the insight sirs.

So if we use the knee strike after stepping in, how do we hit bad billy in the neck with the outward handsword? look how close he is, the target moves toward us and is now too close (because we stepped in)

Use the forearm rather than the hand, though admittedly if I was moving in my preferred combination would be forearm then knee, screw the "Delayed" part.
 
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MJS

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Use the forearm rather than the hand, though admittedly if I was moving in my preferred combination would be forearm then knee, screw the "Delayed" part.

I was going to suggest the same thing. Thank you. :)
 

Twin Fist

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I'm not looking to pull off DS. If I do, great. Otherwise, I may use parts of DS, I may mix up the tech.


this to me is the essence of Kenpo.

it isnt about 164 techniques, it is about the 1000's of lessons that those techniques teach us.If we learned the lessons, we dont NEED the techniques, if we need to do the techniques, we havnt really learned the lessons.
 

OKenpo942

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I agree. The technique is just a conduit for communicating the many lessons held within each technique.

For example, DS holds many lessons in the pages beyond the title. It holds a basic block against a basic type of attack or types of attacks (depending how you teach). It holds basic strikes (front snap kick, outward handsword strike), basic stances (neutral bow, cat stance). Very basic, but gives the groundwork for the application of these basics.

DS covers many principles, such as contouring, marriage of gravity, rotational force, line of entry, positional checks, outer rim, outer perimeter, etc.

You go beyond the basic application into grafting with other techniques and you get to the essence of Kenpo. It takes on a language of its own. It becomes the practitioners version of the technique or his/her own physical dialect.

Kind of like the english language. In different parts of the country, we all sound a little different and use diffferent slang terms, but we can all communicate with one another. It doesn't necessarily have to have a name anymore. It just simply has to be effective and get the job done.

Thanks,

James
 

Inkspill

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by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"

now, someone else down the way says, "rather than do that, I'm going to take the arm that I have grabbed, and do a leverage on the arm instead."

well, now the point of the technique is totally gone! someone that doesn't know what the lesson is changes the technique, and the lesson is gone. does anybody else see what I'm talking about?
 

OKenpo942

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by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"

now, someone else down the way says, "rather than do that, I'm going to take the arm that I have grabbed, and do a leverage on the arm instead."

well, now the point of the technique is totally gone! someone that doesn't know what the lesson is changes the technique, and the lesson is gone. does anybody else see what I'm talking about?

I agree, Inkspill. This is why we should teach the curriculum as Parker laid out. If you understand and know the lessons to be taught within each technique, they are very effective tools. As one progresses in his understanding of the art and learns the lessons, he/she can express those lessons in their own way.

I don't think that we should give the beginnner an amended version of the technique until they are proficient enough to understand what principles or lessons change when the technique is changed. When they can recognize that there are new or different lessons or that different principles come into play if the technique is changed, you know they have been taught correctly and are getting a grasp on what Kenpo is.

James
 
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MJS

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by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"

now, someone else down the way says, "rather than do that, I'm going to take the arm that I have grabbed, and do a leverage on the arm instead."

well, now the point of the technique is totally gone! someone that doesn't know what the lesson is changes the technique, and the lesson is gone. does anybody else see what I'm talking about?

Thats true, the techs are teaching something specific. But, if, during the course of a technique, something goes wrong, the student is going to need to be able to adapt to the sudden change. If the student assumes they'll a) pull off the whole tech or b) that they'll be able to recall another tech, I think thats a set up to fail. A boxer has preset combos that they do on focus mitts, but when they jump into the ring to spar/fight, they use a tech/combo thats fitting for the time. I dont think they're thinking, "Well, in training, coach had me do 2 jabs and a cross, so anytime I wanna throw a cross, I have to preface it with 2 jabs."

I guess my point is, during the confrontation, theres going to be constant movement, constant change. If the badguy steps, moves, punches, etc, the slightest bit different from the relaxed, controlled way its done in the school, that will easily throw off the ability to pull off the full tech, thus the need to adapt and change to something else.
 

Blindside

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by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

Some people are lumpers, some people are splitters, much of the teaching method depends on the viewpoint of the instructor. Is the lesson limited to what Inkspill wrote above, or is there a broader lesson to be addressed? Something like: Entry line to inside - lead hand defense, lead leg destabilize the base, lead hand checks width. Under that slightly broader category you can teach the lesson based on how far behind the timing curve you are, way behind the curve you have to step back, higher on the curve you can step forward, way ahead of the curve and you can initiate the attack. All within the context of DS, I don't think it stops becoming Kenpo if you teach it with that methodology.

But I'm a lumper. :D
 

OKenpo942

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Some people are lumpers, some people are splitters, much of the teaching method depends on the viewpoint of the instructor. Is the lesson limited to what Inkspill wrote above, or is there a broader lesson to be addressed? Something like: Entry line to inside - lead hand defense, lead leg destabilize the base, lead hand checks width. Under that slightly broader category you can teach the lesson based on how far behind the timing curve you are, way behind the curve you have to step back, higher on the curve you can step forward, way ahead of the curve and you can initiate the attack. All within the context of DS, I don't think it stops becoming Kenpo if you teach it with that methodology.

But I'm a lumper. :D

True, but you must not, regardless of where they are on the curve, neglect to teach the original technique in its entirety. If you do, how can we expect to pass on to our students the tools they will need later to teach their students.

Just a thought,

James
 

marlon

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This is probably where I differ from many. I'm not looking to pull off DS. If I do, great. Otherwise, I may use parts of DS, I may mix up the tech. For example, lets say we do DS against a punch, but instead of a step thru, the attack is a cross. Stepping back would take us out of range. I see no reason why we couldnt step as in SF 2. The block is there, the swordhand is there. Only thing missing is the kick. Thats fine IMO.

Ex 2: Assuming the attack is a cross. Omit the initial block and fire off a kick. As you're landing forward, your hand is up, should another punch come. If another punch never comes, end off with the swordhand to the neck, face, etc.

I'm sure this sounds like I'm dissing the art...I'm not. I love the art. :) For the sake of testing, yes, ya gotta do those techs in textbook fashion, no changes, just by the book. But when you need to defend yourself....worrying about pulling off the textbook moves is second to an effective defense.
YES!!!
You are not dissing the art, you are keeping it alive! The techniques are to train specific lessons and skills and then ,what you said :)

Marlon
 

marlon

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by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"

now, someone else down the way says, "rather than do that, I'm going to take the arm that I have grabbed, and do a leverage on the arm instead."

well, now the point of the technique is totally gone! someone that doesn't know what the lesson is changes the technique, and the lesson is gone. does anybody else see what I'm talking about?

yep.that's why i teach the base techniques in an ideal phase, first, I don't feel qualified to drop techniques. I am obligated as the teacher to know or firgure out how to make them work and what makes them work, though. That is why i use reaction drills and such to train aliveness and then perhaps, show the student how s/he used part X of such and such a technique. or, where they failed to use a particular principle taught by technique Y... But, that doesn't mean you can't have some fun and mess things up as well
 

marlon

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.

Start practicing executing your stances THROUGH your partner with the intent to drop them or at least unbalance them.You'll get a whole new love for the bow and bent kneel stances,promise you.

,it's about learning and executing the PRINCIPLES..


Two of the best things you have ever written. Much respect, my friend

Marlon
 

ATACX GYM

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Thanks for the insight sirs.

So if we use the knee strike after stepping in, how do we hit bad billy in the neck with the outward handsword? look how close he is, the target moves toward us and is now too close (because we stepped in)


This isn't necessarily true. For instance,if he's taller than us? We can still whack him in the neck even if we've stepped in (I'm a whopping 5'7" 160lbs. and rarely do I have static with anyone my height or size,it's usually somebody taller and bigger). On top of that,since I teach attacking with both sides and also employ what Tony Blauer popularized as THE S.P.E.A.R. (but which of course predates Tony Blauer,I had a variant of this before he popularized it which I called "COVER" or THE COVER PRINCIPLE and which my brother called "THE OH ***** RESPONSE") and practice converting every movement into an attack,defense,and unbalancing mechanism? We explore a huge ocean of lessons just in this one tech. We hit the radial nerve all the way to the shoulder.We execute it while grappling standing or on the ground. Have you seen the look on a guy's face when he's dilligently passing your guard and you give him a dose of thee ole Delayed Sword? PRICELESS.Specially when you boot the nads or kick his thigh back which breaks down his base and he looks all surprised and stuff as he's dropping right into the handsword.Btw handswording a guy in the face gives him no joy.Try it on your unsuspecting sparring partner.He'll BLINK which will allow you to get off another move that he LITERALLY WON'T SEE COMING.

Try the Delayed Sword from THE OUTSIDE. Very interesting options there.Might show a quick clip of that on my upcoming video of this tech.
 

ATACX GYM

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The other way to think of nailing the handsword is how I tell my students to turn everything from the tip of their elbow to their stiffened pinkie finger into the ARMsword instead of merely a "handsword".From in close,the blade of the elbow and forearm might be able to smash through obstacles (like opponent's upflung arms) that the handsword alone cannot.It's a terrific way to initiate checks,grabs,pulls,traps,pushes,clinches,setups for throws trips sweeps unbalances displacements standing subs and it's a good counter for same.However,the farther away the opponent is,the higher along the armsword we strike until we're left with a handsword.The point is? When scrappin starts we can hitcha with a sword strike of some kind that will hurt you and likely end the fight,while simultaneously and very efficiently resolving matters like excessive proximity to the defender. You're never too close for our variant of Delayed Sword.
 
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